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 Yin and Yang of Deceit

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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:22 am

Is it really anyone's business what someone else decides to flush?
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:28 am

Kent Powell wrote:
Is it really anyone's business what someone else decides to flush?  

Kent I do not really care what people flush for animals.
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:13 pm

PatB wrote:
 I support genomics when used to help select animals that work under your feed resources and management style...

Pat, when the lightbulb in your head goes off, does it look like this?



Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. Charles Mingus
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jonken



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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:37 am

Mean Spirit wrote:
The key take home message:  Don’t Be Left Behind.

Sounds too familiar to the promised salvation of another failing system. " No Child Left Behind"  turned into "Race to the top, which led to "Top 10 by 20" in less than five years. It's interesting achieving top 20% is considered superior for the academic arena that takes credit for creating a "one-per center calf."   Are education goals too low, or genetic claims too high?    Pat,  your BS meter or my gut instinct is irrelevant, as we both shared the same reaction to reading the article.  Quantitative versus qualitative can be applicable to human nature as well as defining superior cattle. Ironically though, we both managed to end up with the same result.--Hype as you call it and intentional deceit by my definition.  

In my opinion, one of the most powerful concepts in marketing is owning a word in the prospect's mind.  Fed Ex is associated with "overnight delivery,"  if one wants to save on car insurance in 15 minutes or less, then Geico is the answer.  It appears that  "DNA profiling" is the vehicle/word that results in "superior cattle."   Owning in this context means that when you or I read that the calf's profile indicated she was a superior superstar compared to other Angus cattle, we would forfeit our  independent thought and begin the mental anguish of self doubt of our thoughts.

The article screams PROMOTION.  The question for me is -Promotion for what or who?   DNA Profiling?  The genetic chip available for purchase so one can profile their cattle?   The genetic profiling company that owns the DNA chip that was developed with USDA and Land Grant Universities money?  The University where the research was conducted?  Publications in highly ranked journals?  Breed Associations that will profit with more cattle seeking superior status?   Attraction of private sector funds for future research projects?  The Show Me Heifer Program?  Faculty raises?  or something else?  If it were anything more sincere, it seems more objectivity would be presented in reporting results as well as the current stage of the research.  Dr. Taylor's email that you forwarded last week Pat indicated that there are too many variants  and to few of animals to be able to draw any conclusions yet regarding the current research project.  It seems that sort of information would be more honest and ethical to present, if in fact there is no hidden agenda.  Especially given the article was published by the same University that is conducting the research.  --Leaves a small window for misquoting incorrect information.  

I'm irritated with the pushy salesman that spends their time convincing me I need what they have, and can easily walk away without a second thought.   The camouflaged salesman that creates the stage for me to subtlety  "conclude” that I need what he offers, and does it in a way that convincingly appears to be my decision......well, that is a different challenge.
-Kendra
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:23 am

If one does not want to deal with pedigrees and associated record keeping and testing just breed commercial cattle. The commercial breeder needs to do more research on seedstock providers and their products they are buying and hold their genetic source to higher standards. If the animals are not equal/superior to what you have in your pasture there is not reason to buy them for your herd. Kendra I agree that articles that are more promotion BS then actual facts are very deceptive. It is getting harder to find articles based on facts versus opinions and promotion BS.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:57 am

Mean Spirit wrote:
The key take home message:  Don’t Be Left Behind.

I can already see the black smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe as the bus gets smaller and smaller.
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:15 am

EddieM wrote:
Mean Spirit wrote:
The key take home message:  Don’t Be Left Behind.

I can already see the black smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe as the bus gets smaller and smaller.

I know man... its sad, watching everybody make all that progress, and us too stupid to grab our piece of the pie.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:48 am

PatB wrote:
If one does not want to deal with pedigrees and associated record keeping and testing just breed commercial cattle.   The commercial breeder needs to do more research on seedstock providers and their products they are buying and hold their genetic source to higher standards.  If the animals are not equal/superior to what you have in your pasture there is not reason to buy them for your herd. Kendra I agree that articles that are more promotion BS then actual facts are very deceptive.  It is getting harder to find articles based on facts versus opinions and promotion BS.

The subtlety has worked on Pat...he believes papers and records make parent stock; without them "just"
"commercial" cattle...
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:33 am

MKeeney wrote:
PatB wrote:
If one does not want to deal with pedigrees and associated record keeping and testing just breed commercial cattle.   The commercial breeder needs to do more research on seedstock providers and their products they are buying and hold their genetic source to higher standards.  If the animals are not equal/superior to what you have in your pasture there is not reason to buy them for your herd. Kendra I agree that articles that are more promotion BS then actual facts are very deceptive.  It is getting harder to find articles based on facts versus opinions and promotion BS.

The subtlety has worked on Pat...he believes papers and records make parent stock; without them "just"
"commercial" cattle...

What is wrong with commercial cattle? The purebred industry would be better off if most of the purebred breeders applied the same pressure that the commercial breeders do to their herds.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Fri Mar 11, 2016 8:51 am

PatB wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
PatB wrote:
If one does not want to deal with pedigrees and associated record keeping and testing just breed commercial cattle.   The commercial breeder needs to do more research on seedstock providers and their products they are buying and hold their genetic source to higher standards.  If the animals are not equal/superior to what you have in your pasture there is not reason to buy them for your herd. Kendra I agree that articles that are more promotion BS then actual facts are very deceptive.  It is getting harder to find articles based on facts versus opinions and promotion BS.

The subtlety has worked on Pat...he believes papers and records make parent stock; without them "just"
"commercial" cattle...

What is wrong with commercial cattle?  The purebred industry would be better off if most of the purebred breeders applied the same pressure that the commercial breeders do to their herds.

what is more likely to make cattle commercial? lack of papers or mongrelization with papers?
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:26 am

PatB wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
PatB wrote:
If one does not want to deal with pedigrees and associated record keeping and testing just breed commercial cattle.   The commercial breeder needs to do more research on seedstock providers and their products they are buying and hold their genetic source to higher standards.  If the animals are not equal/superior to what you have in your pasture there is not reason to buy them for your herd. Kendra I agree that articles that are more promotion BS then actual facts are very deceptive.  It is getting harder to find articles based on facts versus opinions and promotion BS.

The subtlety has worked on Pat...he believes papers and records make parent stock; without them "just"
"commercial" cattle...

What is wrong with commercial cattle?  The purebred industry would be better off if most of the purebred breeders applied the same pressure that the commercial breeders do to their herds.

Purebred industry??
Don't you mean "registration" industry?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:03 pm

RobertMac wrote:
PatB wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
PatB wrote:
If one does not want to deal with pedigrees and associated record keeping and testing just breed commercial cattle.   The commercial breeder needs to do more research on seedstock providers and their products they are buying and hold their genetic source to higher standards.  If the animals are not equal/superior to what you have in your pasture there is not reason to buy them for your herd. Kendra I agree that articles that are more promotion BS then actual facts are very deceptive.  It is getting harder to find articles based on facts versus opinions and promotion BS.

The subtlety has worked on Pat...he believes papers and records make parent stock; without them "just"
"commercial" cattle...

What is wrong with commercial cattle?  The purebred industry would be better off if most of the purebred breeders applied the same pressure that the commercial breeders do to their herds.

Purebred industry??
Don't you mean "registration" industry?

slip of the tongue...
all that glitters.... http://www.law360.com/cases/539f0d7a767a7c086a000001
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:17 pm

It is fascinating to me that we lose sight of why people raise cattle. In my opinion it is to use forage that is not good enough quality for human consumption to turn it into protein that is good for humans. Is not that a novel idea? Bob H
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jonken



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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:57 pm

PatB wrote:
If one does not want to deal with pedigrees and associated record keeping and testing just breed commercial cattle.  

The commercial breeder needs to do more research on seedstock providers and their products they are buying and hold their genetic source to higher standards.

 

What is your understanding of WHY commercial cattlemen have chosen to not want to deal with registration papers and Association?   Convenience, necessity or something else?

Each of us gets to determine our values and who & what we want to associate with, ultimately conducting ourselves to our own standards.  How or who determined a seedstock animal’s value is more accurate and useful defined from a futuristic perspective rather than a retrospective perspective?  Instead of estimated predictions of a bull’s value would it not be of considerable value for a potential buyer to have evidence of a detailed breeding program that the bull’s genetic foundation was built from?  A perspective that could reflect environmental influences, longevity of a breeding program, successes and failures encountered with decisions made in the program.  Wouldn’t a breed association, whose mission is to “To be the leading and most progressive, member-driven, consumer-focused beef organization in the world” find value in promoting the few purebred members who have seedstock built on long-term breeding programs with equal conviction to their current practice of marketing  seedstock  programs built on fads?   These few breeders never seem to acquire the coveted “Association “Teacher’s” pet status that yields the endorsements of “Superior” genetic merit.  

An applicable example is Jon’s post a while back under the thread “No More Subway.”  Any hog producer (corporate, commercial, organic, naturally raised, GMO influenced, non GMO influenced….) who sells hogs and has the mandatory check off dollars deducted from their check is now considered a National Pork Producer (NPP).  Solicited or not, in exchange for their check off dollars each producer now has the support of the NPP whose mission statement is “develop revenue and market opportunities and protect the livelihoods of America’s 67,000 pork producers,”   On October 29, the NPP purchased a full page add in the Wall Street Journal as “an effort to share American pig farmers’ collective dissatisfaction with the recent Subway announcement” to no longer sell meat from antibiotic use.  Jon’s point was not to debate the use or lack of antibiotics, but instead question the lack of NPP’s support for the producers who choose to raise antibiotic free meat?  Doesn’t their checkoff dollars entitle them to the same protection from the self-appointed livelihood protection group? Why isn’t Subway’s choice viewed by the NPP as an opportunity to support one sector of pork producers, whereas “XYZ’s” choice to sell meat used with antibiotics viewed as an opportunity to support another type of pork producer.   Wouldn’t the end product of pork be promoted in all cases?   What influence within the NPP (Corporation, legislative, pharmaceutical, other) dictates which producers get the organization’s support and which producers are used only for the mandated checkoff donation?    
The suggestion that producers unsatisfied with associations, “just raise commercial cattle” becomes an act of integrity for several breeders.  Out of necessity, many of these have chosen to raise their own seedstock.  
Choosing to just raise commercial cattle is easy, accurately identifying the association’s value of your role in its membership is difficult.  

Pat, your suggestion that the commercial breeder hold their genetic source to a higher standard is noble at best.   How would you suggest one accomplish this?  Trying to nail jello to a wall seems more likely for success.   A few years ago, Jon was invited to participate in a breed association’s discussion of the how to improve the poor and declining quality of the breed’s hogs.   All attention was given when he said he knew one quick and inexpensive suggestion, but silence fell on the room, and a scramble to get the microphone out of his hand happened when he stated, “you can change the direction overnight if the show ring would stop placing them at the top and start burying them at the bottom of the class.”   Needless to say…. his opinion hasn’t been solicited again.  
-Kendra
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:35 pm

What is your understanding of WHY commercial cattlemen have chosen to not want to deal with registration papers and Association? Convenience, necessity or something else?

All of the above plus money, time and no perceived benefit to how they are marketing their cattle.

Pat, your suggestion that the commercial breeder hold their genetic source to a higher standard is noble at best. How would you suggest one accomplish this?

Ifyou are not happy with how your sources of genetics spend your money some place else. The quickest way to get a business attention is stop spending money there and tell them why.

I would have to agree with Jon on his assessment on how to change the industry. Educate producers on what good udders, feet, structure are and how to select the appropriate genetics for your region, feed resources and management. The breed association should be promoting that breed of cattle.

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Sun Mar 13, 2016 9:09 pm

another fine example Kendra ...from university of mo..


source:

David J. Patterson, 573-882-7519



FORSYTH, Mo. – Beef calves born early in the calving season are worth more. Ranch records show those economics. Research from the University of Missouri Thompson Farm shows how to get more calves born early in the season.

Dave Patterson, MU Extension beef specialist, told that story to Taney County cattlemen, Feb. 25.

When Patterson asked how many of them use AI (artificial insemination) to breed their cows, many hands went up.

Next, he asked how many use fixed-time AI. Only a third of those hands went back up.

Fixed-time AI, or FTAI, allows breeding of all cows in a herd on one day. The very idea causes many herd owners to fear all calves will be born on one night. That’s more than anyone wants.

However, cows aren’t alike: Some calve early while some calve late. Research from the MU herd at Spickard shows calving peaks at the “normal” 283 days of gestation.

Patterson said that the calving spread works in favor of the owner. With FTAI, in a 100-cow herd, about 12 calves will be born on peak days. There’s another benefit for herd owners. With AI, cows can be bred with calving-ease genetics.

It’s not all genetics, however. Management helps. Prebreeding exams cull heifers that might need calving assistance or even C-sections at birth.

Show-Me-Select Replacement Heifer sales show that heifers with better genetics from proven AI sires sell for more dollars.

Last year, SMS sales showed that the advanced AI-bred Tier Two heifers averaged $422 more per head over bull-bred heifers. As buyers learn the value of better heifers they come back to bid more.

Stacked genetics add value as well. AI adds traits such as carcass quality and rib-eye area for steermates sent to feedlots. FTAI adds value to feeder calves that are uniform in age and size.

Patterson told how 19 years of science went into refining protocols for fixed-time AI. The protocols, or recipes, are updated every year. “Use the 2016 sheet,” Patterson said.

All the details are printed on two sides of a yellow card from MU Extension livestock specialists. Also, AI companies print the AI protocols in their sire catalogs.

Cows and heifers need different protocols. Traditionally, heifers cause more problems; however, a new 14-day protocol works best for most heifers.

Patterson stressed that breeders must use protocols exactly. The steps are timed down to the hour. That fits the breeding cycle of most females in the herd.

“When followed, the protocols work,” Patterson said. Over the years, the MU scientists tried various methods so that farmers don’t need to experiment.

Fixed-time AI makes for uniform calf crops as most calves are born in a 21-day period. Show-Me-Select buyers soon learn they like short calving seasons. That beats getting up on winter nights in a 120-day season.

Producers can enroll in the Show-Me-Select Replacement Heifer Program with their area MU Extension livestock specialist. It’s a yearlong program that offers SMS sales at the end.

Producers can learn to inseminate their cows. But Patterson warns beginners to not try to breed all cows in one day by themselves.

In recent breeding research in large herds, Patterson and two MU graduate students were breeding 100 heifers per hour. They’ve practiced.

Newcomers should ask their local AI provider to help when getting started.

how ridiculous !
as science replaces common cow sense, is it to enhance the security of commercial cattleman or the scientist?
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:06 am

If you use a natural sires just think how many people are not getting a cut of the action? The drug companies, semen providers, AI specialist and research providers all need a share of your calf check. How many fertility challenges are being masked by drugs to bring animals into eustrus? How many times can you stack calving ease sires before you have problems before the cows cannot have a decent sized calf not the lost weight at sale time?
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:14 am

Bob H wrote:
It is fascinating to me that we lose sight of why people raise cattle. In my opinion it is to use forage that is not good enough quality for human consumption to turn it into protein that is good for humans.   Is not that a novel idea? Bob H

That's crazy talk Bob. It's as if you have forgotten that cattle grow faster when someone spends a ton of resources for corn and carries the corn to the cows. Poor quality forage for cows? A travesty.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:24 am

PatB wrote:
If you use a natural sires just think how many people are not getting a cut of the action?  The drug companies, semen providers, AI specialist and research providers all need a share of your calf check.  How many fertility challenges are being masked by drugs to bring animals into eustrus?  How many times can you stack calving ease sires before you have problems before the cows cannot have a decent sized calf not the lost weight at sale time?  

Pat, you raise a point that I see oft stated by others that I doubt the validity of...why can`t you continue to select for lighter bw without effecting cow ability to calve?
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:31 am

MKeeney wrote:
PatB wrote:
If you use a natural sires just think how many people are not getting a cut of the action?  The drug companies, semen providers, AI specialist and research providers all need a share of your calf check.  How many fertility challenges are being masked by drugs to bring animals into eustrus?  How many times can you stack calving ease sires before you have problems before the cows cannot have a decent sized calf not the lost weight at sale time?  

Pat, you raise a point that I see oft stated by others that I doubt the validity of...why can`t you continue to select for lighter bw without effecting cow ability to calve?

It is a simple experiment buy around 10 animals that have been sired by calving ease bulls for 4 or 5 generations then breed to a moderate birth weight growth bull and tell what is the outcome. What is stacking generations of calving ease animals doing to your actual weaning weights and finish weights? I know how using several generations of low birth weight bulls affected my bottom line .
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:57 am

Quote :
why can`t you continue to select for lighter bw
Define "lighter". Is it lighter in a range of moderation or the lightest possible?

That is the problem, to me. Moving beyond the average range to the far edges of small. Sure seems to be a fad to talk about it right now anyway. I do not detest low BW bulls and certainly look at that and knowledge of calf shape when selecting bulls for heifers. But to focus on the smallest possible is an extreme. I just see low BW cattle making a type of cattle that are not the overall best for me and here.

Several ways to look at a low BW calf. 1-total body mass is lighter and BW generally links to growth rates in genetics statically. These would be the lower growth and trouble types for me. 2-muscle mass is less but organs and bones are normal. I think this is the one I prefer the least and see as a flat muscled bull or a fat glob as a mature cow. 3- the genetics defy the normal link of BW to growth rate and these are the curve-benders. I have found them to be real but not as stabilizing for the long run benefit of the herd in the long run. For the extreme low of BW they have been extremely high on MW on the other end.

Where I would rather fall is moderate BW with excellent CED. That is pretty average and useful.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:02 am

PatB wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
PatB wrote:
If you use a natural sires just think how many people are not getting a cut of the action?  The drug companies, semen providers, AI specialist and research providers all need a share of your calf check.  How many fertility challenges are being masked by drugs to bring animals into eustrus?  How many times can you stack calving ease sires before you have problems before the cows cannot have a decent sized calf not the lost weight at sale time?  

Pat, you raise a point that I see oft stated by others that I doubt the validity of...why can`t you continue to select for lighter bw without effecting cow ability to calve?

It is a simple experiment buy around 10 animals that have been sired by calving ease bulls for 4 or 5 generations then breed to a moderate birth weight growth bull and tell what is the outcome.  What is stacking generations of calving ease animals doing to your actual weaning weights and finish weights?  I know how using several generations of low birth weight bulls affected my bottom line .

then epds don`t work...enhanced or not...
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jonken



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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:33 am

MKeeney wrote:
another fine example Kendra ...from university of mo..


source:

David J. Patterson, 573-882-7519



FORSYTH, Mo. – Beef calves born early in the calving season are worth more. Ranch records show those economics. Research from the University of Missouri Thompson Farm shows how to get more calves born early in the season.

Dave Patterson, MU Extension beef specialist, told that story to Taney County cattlemen, Feb. 25.

When Patterson asked how many of them use AI (artificial insemination) to breed their cows, many hands went up.

Next, he asked how many use fixed-time AI. Only a third of those hands went back up.

Fixed-time AI, or FTAI, allows breeding of all cows in a herd on one day. The very idea causes many herd owners to fear all calves will be born on one night. That’s more than anyone wants.

However, cows aren’t alike: Some calve early while some calve late. Research from the MU herd at Spickard shows calving peaks at the “normal” 283 days of gestation.

Patterson said that the calving spread works in favor of the owner. With FTAI, in a 100-cow herd, about 12 calves will be born on peak days. There’s another benefit for herd owners. With AI, cows can be bred with calving-ease genetics.

It’s not all genetics, however. Management helps. Prebreeding exams cull heifers that might need calving assistance or even C-sections at birth.

Show-Me-Select Replacement Heifer sales show that heifers with better genetics from proven AI sires sell for more dollars.

Last year, SMS sales showed that the advanced AI-bred Tier Two heifers averaged $422 more per head over bull-bred heifers. As buyers learn the value of better heifers they come back to bid more.

Stacked genetics add value as well. AI adds traits such as carcass quality and rib-eye area for steermates sent to feedlots. FTAI adds value to feeder calves that are uniform in age and size.

Patterson told how 19 years of science went into refining protocols for fixed-time AI. The protocols, or recipes, are updated every year. “Use the 2016 sheet,” Patterson said.

All the details are printed on two sides of a yellow card from MU Extension livestock specialists. Also, AI companies print the AI protocols in their sire catalogs.

Cows and heifers need different protocols. Traditionally, heifers cause more problems; however, a new 14-day protocol works best for most heifers.

Patterson stressed that breeders must use protocols exactly. The steps are timed down to the hour. That fits the breeding cycle of most females in the herd.

“When followed, the protocols work,” Patterson said. Over the years, the MU scientists tried various methods so that farmers don’t need to experiment.

Fixed-time AI makes for uniform calf crops as most calves are born in a 21-day period. Show-Me-Select buyers soon learn they like short calving seasons. That beats getting up on winter nights in a 120-day season.

Producers can enroll in the Show-Me-Select Replacement Heifer Program with their area MU Extension livestock specialist. It’s a yearlong program that offers SMS sales at the end.

Producers can learn to inseminate their cows. But Patterson warns beginners to not try to breed all cows in one day by themselves.

In recent breeding research in large herds, Patterson and two MU graduate students were breeding 100 heifers per hour. They’ve practiced.

Newcomers should ask their local AI provider to help when getting started.

how ridiculous !
as science replaces common cow sense, is it to enhance the security of commercial cattleman or the scientist?

More of the same promotion for Show Me Select  Heifer Program.  The following was taken from a December article in the High Plains Journal written by an  MU Extension specialist. With all the reference to superior genetics it is easy to mistakenly believe it is a program crafted for buyers with the primary goal of herd improvement.  Closer look, as the excerpt below validates,  it continues to be about the sellers, who are appendages of the University.    Each of us gets to choose who we associate with and the standards we hold ourselves too...... Shame on all involved with the extension's promotion of the Show Me Heifer Select program via the  4-H  and FFA youth which inevitably capitalizes on the youth's trust of the system claiming to be first and foremost, for the youth.   A recent SMH sale sold 298 heifers for an average of $2769.  Any 4-H or FFA member was graciously given $50 off  of their purchase.   The following spoken by a university extension agent leaves no doubt as who the intended  recipient is.....


At the end of the day, most participants measure their improvement by the money after the sale. Cole says a simple way to do that is to divide your heifer’s average price by the average of the heifers in the sale and multiply that by 100. The answer is a ratio with 100 being average, just like a weaning weight ratio.

“If you get over 100, that indicates you are better than the average on heifer price in the sale,” said Cole. “However, if you consistently find your ratio is much below 100, there’s work to do.”

Besides the above genetic and economic efforts, most SMS participants also work to improve their reputation via marketing and customer attention before and after the sale.

Cole says commercial cow-calf producers do have to adapt to marketing breeding stock as they embark on the SMS program. Purebred breeders are used to promoting their cattle while the commercial person must sharpen their salesmanship.



The SMH program has stood the test of time.... or at least according to the article's title.    With 19 years of  measurements, selection criteria,  and genetic testing,  what should be ones expectation  be of a SMH herd's phenotype?
-Kendra
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EddieM



Posts : 648
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:39 am

MKeeney wrote:
PatB wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
PatB wrote:
If you use a natural sires just think how many people are not getting a cut of the action?  The drug companies, semen providers, AI specialist and research providers all need a share of your calf check.  How many fertility challenges are being masked by drugs to bring animals into eustrus?  How many times can you stack calving ease sires before you have problems before the cows cannot have a decent sized calf not the lost weight at sale time?  

Pat, you raise a point that I see oft stated by others that I doubt the validity of...why can`t you continue to select for lighter bw without effecting cow ability to calve?

It is a simple experiment buy around 10 animals that have been sired by calving ease bulls for 4 or 5 generations then breed to a moderate birth weight growth bull and tell what is the outcome.  What is stacking generations of calving ease animals doing to your actual weaning weights and finish weights?  I know how using several generations of low birth weight bulls affected my bottom line .

then epds don`t work...enhanced or not...
I totally agree as with the various reasons for low BW or +CED. There are different reasons for different lines and types of cattle for each of the EPD values. The numbers can be the same but the actual cattle are vastly different. I take the simple approach but think in terms that the EPDs are too simple for the complexity and the enormity of the actual genetic base. Gene testing might sound newer but with a test that is based on a low % of the actual data would you be the first to swallow an experimental drug, have an unheard of operation or launch a successful war. Very unlikely.
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Bob H



Posts : 292
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Tue Mar 15, 2016 6:25 pm

Kendra in our location we call all of that putting make up on the pig. Bob H
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