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 Yin and Yang of Deceit

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PatB



Posts : 352
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:21 am

MVCatt wrote:
Pat what is you're current yearly cull rate and how many of those are actually open?

last seasons cull rate. Cows culled was around 10 percent with 3 of the 6 lost calf after birth, one open at preg check time, one failed to produce a calf to be tagged, one culled for age and health reasons. Heifers had around 30 percent cull rate for being open. A poor choice in prior sire selection continues to haunt me. The cow cull rate is around normal with higher percentage due to lost calf then normal but lest for other issues. The heifer cull rate is more than double normal rate. The heifers were cycling and were bred AI then followed by clean up bull. I will be keeping back more heifers then normal this year to start increasing the herd.
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EddieM



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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:01 pm

Seems to be a band aide on a heart attack. You know or perceive your problem was past sire selection. Would knowing that and now making correct sire selection not be the fix rather than chase after the gene testing? Ever keep bulls from your best cows? A cheaper fix even yet.

Not sure how gene testing helps, in it's infancy with the low % of genes represented, with disconnected genepools, with the emphasis on mainstream individuals and lines you and I will probably never use and the expense and effort to boot. Good bet for me: use home raised bulls mainly from home raised bulls and environmentally fit proven home raised cows that exhibit fertility. Strongest force is environment. Which group will win out? Unproven genetics to fit environment with gene data or genetics that are proven to fit the environment? All from on-farm data and not from genetic testing. OK, it's too simple and will never fly!
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MVCatt



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Age : 43
Location : SW Penn

PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:46 pm

EddieM wrote:
Not sure how gene testing helps, in it's infancy with the low % of genes represented, with disconnected genepools, with the emphasis on mainstream individuals and lines you and I will probably never use and the expense and effort to boot.  Good bet for me: use home raised bulls mainly from home raised bulls and environmentally fit proven home raised cows that exhibit fertility.  Strongest force is environment.  Which group will win out?  Unproven genetics to fit environment with gene data or genetics that are proven to fit the environment?  All from on-farm data and not from genetic testing.  OK, it's too simple and will never fly!

Pat didn't you say one time that heavier calves sell for more per pound in your area (pretty crazy)? Besides using the bulls Eddie is talking about...why not run less cows? Keep all of your heifers as stockers turn in a bull for a short period of time based on the number of replacements you need that year. Preg check, keep what you need, and sell the rest. Calve your heifers in a tight window. No microscopes or PhD's required. In your area if you do grassfed don't pregcheck at all. Whatever doesn't calve, finish on grass for about 6wks during the spring lush.
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Grassfarmer



Posts : 714
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Mon Feb 29, 2016 1:20 pm

Pat, If your open heifer percentage varies from 15% to 30% in two consecutive years doesn't that suggest to you that it's more likely to be management related than due to a "genetic defect" from several generations ago? If your cows are running 1.5% open and are closer to the "defective ancestor" it doesn't make any sense that the heifers are open to this extend due to some inherited genetic defect.
On the limited AI experience I've had in the past it sure increased your open %. Can't beat chasing a home raised bull in with the herd and letting him get on with the job he was meant to do.
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PatB



Posts : 352
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:04 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
Pat, If your open heifer percentage varies from 15% to 30% in two consecutive years doesn't that suggest to you that it's more likely to be management related than due to a "genetic defect" from several generations ago? If your cows are running 1.5% open and are closer to the "defective ancestor" it doesn't make any sense that the heifers are open to this extend due to some inherited genetic defect.
On the limited AI experience I've had in the past it sure increased your open %. Can't beat chasing a home raised bull in with the herd and letting him get on with the job he was meant to do.

The open challenge is not all the past sires fault their is also challenge with one of the cow families. I discovered the hard way that cow family cannot be linebred. I use a home raised bull out of what I thought was one of my better cow lines to discover that there was fertility issues when linebred. That line will not longer produce bulls. The home raised bulls are only kept one season and replaced. The home raised bull is turned out after AI season and breeds everything that comes in heat regardless of relationship.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:12 am

Pat, are you selecting for fertility or traits that are generally antagonistic to fertility? Where is the loss in selling a fat open 2 YO heifer for meat?

I had a bull one time that really impressed me on everything but daughter fertility. He sold well for beef and life went on. If you distrust the cow family, cull them now and motor on with new hope and less baggage. Or use them as a base for crossbred terminals and wear them out for what they are worth.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:09 am

If an animal is open at preq check time she will be removed from the herd. If a cow fails to wean a calf she is removed from the herd. Selling fat 2 year olds comes down to marketing and that means selling direct to the customer for the best return. The monetary return on time, feed resources and aggravation of selling cull 2 years to general populace is not worth it.

The line that has fertility challenges had great preq rates until line bred. That lines founding cow carried a genetic challenge(s) that causes early embryonic loss/ failure to conceive when mated with a another carrier with same genetic challenge.
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MVCatt



Posts : 114
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Age : 43
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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:43 am

PatB wrote:
The line that has fertility challenges had great preq rates until line bred.  That lines founding cow carried a genetic challenge(s) that causes early embryonic loss/ failure to conceive when mated with a another carrier with same genetic challenge.

Pat what is your definition of a line?
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Mean Spirit



Posts : 303
Join date : 2010-09-26

PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:07 pm

PatB wrote:
The line that has fertility challenges had great preq rates until line bred.  That lines founding cow carried a genetic challenge(s) that causes early embryonic loss/ failure to conceive when mated with a another carrier with same genetic challenge.

Just wondering Pat- I am way behind on my Angus defects- what is the early embryonic death challenge the founding cow carried?

I think I've mentioned before that I had a bull that had something called Robertsonian Translocation 1/29- it sounds similar to what you're dealing with. I thought it was a Continental cattle thing, not British. Our experience was bad. We never successfully calved out a known carrier. These cattle all left the building many years ago.
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PatB



Posts : 352
Join date : 2010-09-25
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Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:14 pm

Mean Spirit wrote:
PatB wrote:
The line that has fertility challenges had great preq rates until line bred.  That lines founding cow carried a genetic challenge(s) that causes early embryonic loss/ failure to conceive when mated with a another carrier with same genetic challenge.

Just wondering Pat- I am way behind on my Angus defects- what is the early embryonic death challenge the founding cow carried?  

I think I've mentioned before that I had a bull that had something called Robertsonian Translocation 1/29- it sounds similar to what you're dealing with.  I thought it was a Continental cattle thing, not British.  Our experience was bad.  We never successfully calved out a known carrier.  These cattle all left the building many years ago.  

No. It is something that came down from foundation cow and I wish I knew what the recessive was and could test for it. The bulls mother, 1/2 sister and another relative failed when bred back to son but rest of herd settle like one would expect. When a son of the bull was used on half sisters and other relatives had a higher than expected drop out rate but normal on out cross animals for pregnancy. The fertility is high on that line if one does not line breed back to foundation cow of that line.
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MKeeney
Admin


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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:38 am

PatB wrote:
Mean Spirit wrote:
PatB wrote:
The line that has fertility challenges had great preq rates until line bred.  That lines founding cow carried a genetic challenge(s) that causes early embryonic loss/ failure to conceive when mated with a another carrier with same genetic challenge.

Just wondering Pat- I am way behind on my Angus defects- what is the early embryonic death challenge the founding cow carried?  

I think I've mentioned before that I had a bull that had something called Robertsonian Translocation 1/29- it sounds similar to what you're dealing with.  I thought it was a Continental cattle thing, not British.  Our experience was bad.  We never successfully calved out a known carrier.  These cattle all left the building many years ago.  

No.  It is something that came down from foundation cow and I wish I knew what the recessive was and could test for it.   The bulls mother, 1/2 sister and another relative failed when bred back to son but rest of herd settle like one would expect.  When a son of the bull was used on half sisters and other relatives had a higher than expected drop out rate but normal on out cross animals for pregnancy.    The fertility is high on that line if one does not line breed back to foundation cow of that line.

hmmm..interesting ...fertility 100% heritability in this case?
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EddieM



Posts : 648
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:45 am

PatB wrote:
Mean Spirit wrote:
PatB wrote:
The line that has fertility challenges had great preq rates until line bred.  That lines founding cow carried a genetic challenge(s) that causes early embryonic loss/ failure to conceive when mated with a another carrier with same genetic challenge.

Just wondering Pat- I am way behind on my Angus defects- what is the early embryonic death challenge the founding cow carried?  

I think I've mentioned before that I had a bull that had something called Robertsonian Translocation 1/29- it sounds similar to what you're dealing with.  I thought it was a Continental cattle thing, not British.  Our experience was bad.  We never successfully calved out a known carrier.  These cattle all left the building many years ago.  

No.  It is something that came down from foundation cow and I wish I knew what the recessive was and could test for it.   The bulls mother, 1/2 sister and another relative failed when bred back to son but rest of herd settle like one would expect.  When a son of the bull was used on half sisters and other relatives had a higher than expected drop out rate but normal on out cross animals for pregnancy.    The fertility is high on that line if one does not line breed back to foundation cow of that line.
Be sure to keep all of the cows from that line and all daughters so that you can prolong the misery.
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MVCatt



Posts : 114
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Age : 43
Location : SW Penn

PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:28 am

From the Midwest Ag Journal as it relates to PHA in the Maine Anjou breed...

PHA, like other recessive defects, can only show up when two carriers are mated to each other. Affected calves are rarely tested for the defect and some are aborted too early to be tested; however, those calves would be considered homozygous for the mutation. A PHA carrier (PHAC) would be # for the mutation. Using the genetic information known on two animals, a breeder can determine the chances of having an affected calf, according to Dr. Beever.
He explained: “If the normal gene is “P” and the defective gene is “p,” mating a carrier bull with the genotype Pp for the PHA gene to a carrier cow also with the genotype Pp for the PHA gene will result in three calves that look normal at birth, but two of the three will be PHA carriers (Pp). The fourth calf will be born with PHA (pp). Thus, mating two carriers gives a breeder a 25 percent chance of having a PHA calf every time this mating is repeated.
“Mating a carrier bull or cow to a non-carrier cow or bull will result in 50 percent of the calves being PHA carriers (Pp). A non-carrier or PHA-free (PHAF) animal would have the genotype PP.”
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:56 pm

MVCatt wrote:
From the Midwest Ag Journal as it relates to PHA in the Maine Anjou breed...

PHA, like other recessive defects, can only show up when two carriers are mated to each other. Affected calves are rarely tested for the defect and some are aborted too early to be tested; however, those calves would be considered homozygous for the mutation. A PHA carrier (PHAC) would be # for the mutation. Using the genetic information known on two animals, a breeder can determine the chances of having an affected calf, according to Dr. Beever.
He explained: “If the normal gene is “P” and the defective gene is “p,” mating a carrier bull with the genotype Pp for the PHA gene to a carrier cow also with the genotype Pp for the PHA gene will result in three calves that look normal at birth, but two of the three will be PHA carriers (Pp). The fourth calf will be born with PHA (pp). Thus, mating two carriers gives a breeder a 25 percent chance of having a PHA calf every time this mating is repeated.
“Mating a carrier bull or cow to a non-carrier cow or bull will result in 50 percent of the calves being PHA carriers (Pp). A non-carrier or PHA-free (PHAF) animal would have the genotype PP.”

on average, 4 of 16 aborted/open....plenty of 2yr olds 25% open with no genetic defects...
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Mean Spirit



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Join date : 2010-09-26

PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:28 am

I don't read too many Angus bull sale catalogs, but I hit this one today on the bus riding in to work. (I hope that didn't make me sound like somebody who rides a bus to work).

This is fascinating in a couple places. The first one is on page 11 "How Much Is a Bull Worth".

https://issuu.com/qhuncovsky/docs/herbster16salecatalogweb?e=1088944/33879764

I got a lot of issues with this one...

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:58 am

Mean Spirit wrote:
I don't read too many Angus bull sale catalogs, but I hit this one today on the bus riding in to work. (I hope that didn't make me sound like somebody who rides a bus to work).

This is fascinating in a couple places.  The first one is on page 11 "How Much Is a Bull Worth".  

https://issuu.com/qhuncovsky/docs/herbster16salecatalogweb?e=1088944/33879764

I got a lot of issues with this one...


better to be on the city bus than the herbster train...

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Mean Spirit



Posts : 303
Join date : 2010-09-26

PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:31 am

Seriously. Just off the top of my head:
- The old timer rule of thumb of 4 X feeder calf- I'd always assumed that was the full price of the bull, not a "base" from which you start.
- and 500 lb calves are not selling for $2.05 here- more like 1.80. So even this "base" is wrong.
- and then you add in the bonuses that the astute bull buyer is set up to receive over the 4 year use of the bull. The bonuses are applied to every calf in all four calf crops. So the implied assumption must be that a farmer should be willing to pay his entire bonus from using this outstanding beast for the beast himself- not for mortgage, retirement, college, truck, etc. How does that help him out?
- And it says that if you get higher weaning weights, you can sell the extra pounds for the same price as the first 500. Which, as a rule, you can't. For example, this week near here, 500 lb calves were in the 1.80 range, but 550 lb calves were close to 1.70. So a 500 lb calf brings $900, and a 550 lb calf brings $935-- so the extra 50 lbs is actually only worth 0.35 per lb, not 1.80, and not 2.05.
- And supposedly the buyer is gonna get $75.99 more per head when selling his calves "post weaning". Whatever post weaning means. Even assuming the EPDs are true, and the choice-select spread is good, maybe someone will get that bonus per head- but if post weaning means before slaughter weight, I guess I'm not sure how the farmer is going to get that money.
- And according to my EPD and Index research with the AAA this morning, WW EPD is actually in the $B index somehow, so they're counting that one twice. (Which I guess makes sense, since they are selling the calves as weaned feeders and somehow getting grid premiums on the same calves post-weaning.)
- And the thing doesn't at any point consider extra cost for developing these super calves.
-And never mind how you're changing your cowherd if you keep replacements-- which I guess you can't do, because those calves are all sold in this analysis, maybe twice.

Seriously, I'm a bus rider so I don't know everything, or even that much, and maybe there is a way to market calves at weaning and get the grid value somehow. Cool if there is. And calf prices obviously vary.

But is this kind of back of the envelope bullshit convincing to anybody that's actually trying to make a profit, or, God forbid, a living off their cattle?

Further hits in this catalog include:
-marketing a supplement that you add to cattle rations to make magic happen, and
-selling semen with a few more cells per straw for more money, with the assertion that this will increase fertility.

I don't think these people are truth tellers.
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EddieM



Posts : 648
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:03 am

Mean Spirit wrote:
Seriously.  Just off the top of my head:
- The old timer rule of thumb of 4 X feeder calf- I'd always assumed that was the full price of the bull, not a "base" from which you start.
- and 500 lb calves are not selling for $2.05 here- more like 1.80.  So even this "base" is wrong.
- and then you add in the bonuses that the astute bull buyer is set up to receive over the 4 year use of the bull.  The bonuses are applied to every calf in all four calf crops.  So the implied assumption must be that a farmer should be willing to pay his entire bonus from using this outstanding beast for the beast himself- not for mortgage, retirement, college, truck, etc.  How does that help him out?
- And it says that if you get higher weaning weights, you can sell the extra pounds for the same price as the first 500.  Which, as a rule, you can't. For example, this week near here, 500 lb calves were in the 1.80 range, but 550 lb calves were close to 1.70. So a 500 lb calf brings $900, and a 550 lb calf brings $935-- so the extra 50 lbs is actually only worth 0.35 per lb, not 1.80, and not 2.05.
- And supposedly the buyer is gonna get $75.99 more per head when selling his calves "post weaning".  Whatever post weaning means.  Even assuming the EPDs are true, and the choice-select spread is good, maybe someone will get that bonus per head- but if post weaning means before slaughter weight, I guess I'm not sure how the farmer is going to get that money.
- And according to my EPD and Index research with the AAA this morning, WW EPD is actually in the $B index somehow, so they're counting that one twice. (Which I guess makes sense, since they are selling the calves as weaned feeders and somehow getting grid premiums on the same calves post-weaning.)
- And the thing doesn't at any point consider extra cost for developing these super calves.
-And never mind how you're changing your cowherd if you keep replacements-- which I guess you can't do, because those calves are all sold in this analysis, maybe twice.

Seriously, I'm a bus rider so I don't know everything, or even that much, and maybe there is a way to market calves at weaning and get the grid value somehow. Cool if there is. And calf prices obviously vary.

But is this kind of back of the envelope bullshit convincing to anybody that's actually trying to make a profit, or, God forbid, a living off their cattle?

Further hits in this catalog include:
-marketing a supplement that you add to cattle rations to make magic happen, and
-selling semen with a few more cells per straw for more money, with the assertion that this will increase fertility.

I don't think these people are truth tellers.      
Talk with magazine editors. Articles (words) are interesting to a low % of readers. Pictures are key to high %. You are getting too engrossed in the filler material (words). Just look at the pictures and feel warm and fuzzy.

I have not seen their catalog but I do hope it has pictures of family all in white shirts, workers with their hats on, little Johnny showing a calf on green sawdust, paid visitors in camo with a dead deer or two, folks sitting in the bleachers at last year's sale, somebody with a catalog looking intelligently (probably forgot his glasses and is squinting to see the tag numbers) at bulls in a pen, folks eating free food, especially canned baked beans, a wrinkled baby in a basket, a classic wedding scene prior to the divorce, an iconic image of cattle moving with somebody (maybe John Wayne) on a horse and (my favorite) a bloated old ugly cow that is the high dollar great granddam that should have been cull beef and the picture is down right hideous and should have been burned when they grilled the cow as burgers for a past sale decades ago.

The catalogs are not really there to display better cattle or new ideas. They are entertainment like the National Inquirer or whatever else grabs your human side. The supplement and semen: ways to get some money to pay for the latest picture book. Feel warm and fuzzy, let your glazed eyes get over to the pictures of the sale items and then dream of owning one. Like Larry and Mike said: Human nature is the problem.

Eddie, thinking about putting in articles about UFOs if I ever craft a sales catalog
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:47 pm

eddie wrote:
Eddie, thinking about putting in articles about UFOs if I ever craft a sales catalog

been doing a little star-gazing Eddie? seems you got Scully`s attention...

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jonken



Posts : 115
Join date : 2011-12-17
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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Sat Mar 05, 2016 12:02 am

Mean Spirit wrote:
Seriously.  Just off the top of my head:
- The old timer rule of thumb of 4 X feeder calf- I'd always assumed that was the full price of the bull, not a "base" from which you start.
- and 500 lb calves are not selling for $2.05 here- more like 1.80.  So even this "base" is wrong.
- and then you add in the bonuses that the astute bull buyer is set up to receive over the 4 year use of the bull.  The bonuses are applied to every calf in all four calf crops.  So the implied assumption must be that a farmer should be willing to pay his entire bonus from using this outstanding beast for the beast himself- not for mortgage, retirement, college, truck, etc.  How does that help him out?
- And it says that if you get higher weaning weights, you can sell the extra pounds for the same price as the first 500.  Which, as a rule, you can't. For example, this week near here, 500 lb calves were in the 1.80 range, but 550 lb calves were close to 1.70. So a 500 lb calf brings $900, and a 550 lb calf brings $935-- so the extra 50 lbs is actually only worth 0.35 per lb, not 1.80, and not 2.05.
- And supposedly the buyer is gonna get $75.99 more per head when selling his calves "post weaning".  Whatever post weaning means.  Even assuming the EPDs are true, and the choice-select spread is good, maybe someone will get that bonus per head- but if post weaning means before slaughter weight, I guess I'm not sure how the farmer is going to get that money.
- And according to my EPD and Index research with the AAA this morning, WW EPD is actually in the $B index somehow, so they're counting that one twice. (Which I guess makes sense, since they are selling the calves as weaned feeders and somehow getting grid premiums on the same calves post-weaning.)
- And the thing doesn't at any point consider extra cost for developing these super calves.
-And never mind how you're changing your cowherd if you keep replacements-- which I guess you can't do, because those calves are all sold in this analysis, maybe twice.

Seriously, I'm a bus rider so I don't know everything, or even that much, and maybe there is a way to market calves at weaning and get the grid value somehow. Cool if there is. And calf prices obviously vary.

But is this kind of back of the envelope bullshit convincing to anybody that's actually trying to make a profit, or, God forbid, a living off their cattle?

Further hits in this catalog include:
-marketing a supplement that you add to cattle rations to make magic happen, and
-selling semen with a few more cells per straw for more money, with the assertion that this will increase fertility.

I don't think these people are truth tellers.      

Mean Spirit,
May I recommend a more appropriate bus for future  morning commutes?  It's positive epd for bull sale catalog transparency guarantees a more enjoyable experience.


No Scooby or Shaggy, but this driver comes highly recommended.


-Kendra
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jonken



Posts : 115
Join date : 2011-12-17
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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:53 am

EddieM wrote:
Mean Spirit wrote:
Seriously.  Just off the top of my head:
- The old timer rule of thumb of 4 X feeder calf- I'd always assumed that was the full price of the bull, not a "base" from which you start.
- and 500 lb calves are not selling for $2.05 here- more like 1.80.  So even this "base" is wrong.
- and then you add in the bonuses that the astute bull buyer is set up to receive over the 4 year use of the bull.  The bonuses are applied to every calf in all four calf crops.  So the implied assumption must be that a farmer should be willing to pay his entire bonus from using this outstanding beast for the beast himself- not for mortgage, retirement, college, truck, etc.  How does that help him out?
- And it says that if you get higher weaning weights, you can sell the extra pounds for the same price as the first 500.  Which, as a rule, you can't. For example, this week near here, 500 lb calves were in the 1.80 range, but 550 lb calves were close to 1.70. So a 500 lb calf brings $900, and a 550 lb calf brings $935-- so the extra 50 lbs is actually only worth 0.35 per lb, not 1.80, and not 2.05.
- And supposedly the buyer is gonna get $75.99 more per head when selling his calves "post weaning".  Whatever post weaning means.  Even assuming the EPDs are true, and the choice-select spread is good, maybe someone will get that bonus per head- but if post weaning means before slaughter weight, I guess I'm not sure how the farmer is going to get that money.
- And according to my EPD and Index research with the AAA this morning, WW EPD is actually in the $B index somehow, so they're counting that one twice. (Which I guess makes sense, since they are selling the calves as weaned feeders and somehow getting grid premiums on the same calves post-weaning.)
- And the thing doesn't at any point consider extra cost for developing these super calves.
-And never mind how you're changing your cowherd if you keep replacements-- which I guess you can't do, because those calves are all sold in this analysis, maybe twice.

Seriously, I'm a bus rider so I don't know everything, or even that much, and maybe there is a way to market calves at weaning and get the grid value somehow. Cool if there is. And calf prices obviously vary.

But is this kind of back of the envelope bullshit convincing to anybody that's actually trying to make a profit, or, God forbid, a living off their cattle?

Further hits in this catalog include:
-marketing a supplement that you add to cattle rations to make magic happen, and
-selling semen with a few more cells per straw for more money, with the assertion that this will increase fertility.

I don't think these people are truth tellers.      
Talk with magazine editors. Articles (words) are interesting to a low % of readers.  Pictures are key to high %.  You are getting too engrossed in the filler material (words).  Just look at the pictures and feel warm and fuzzy.

I have not seen their catalog but I do hope it has pictures of family all in white shirts, workers with their hats on, little Johnny showing a calf on green sawdust, paid visitors in camo with a dead deer or two, folks sitting in the bleachers at last year's sale, somebody with a catalog looking intelligently (probably forgot his glasses and is squinting to see the tag numbers) at bulls in a pen, folks eating free food, especially canned baked beans, a wrinkled baby in a basket, a classic wedding scene prior to the divorce, an iconic image of cattle moving with somebody (maybe John Wayne) on a horse and (my favorite) a bloated old ugly cow that is the high dollar great granddam that should have been cull beef and the picture is down right hideous and should have been burned when they grilled the cow as burgers for a past sale decades ago.

The catalogs are not really there to display better cattle or new ideas.  They are entertainment like the National Inquirer or whatever else grabs your human side.  The supplement and semen: ways to get some money to pay for the latest picture book.  Feel warm and fuzzy, let your glazed eyes get over to the pictures of the sale items and then dream of owning one.  Like Larry and Mike said: Human nature is the problem.

Eddie, thinking about putting in articles about UFOs if I ever craft a sales catalog


Brilliant Eddie!  It appears that you have successfully  mapped the bull sale catalog genome.    Without the use of sophisticated genomic technologies,  you have:
identified the genes associated with economic failure and mortality in cattle production,  developed multi-trait selection indexes for beef producers that can support  improved selection and breeding decisions, developed a simulation exercise for beef producers that demonstrates independent thought, developed educational and outreach strategies that can support industry adoption of transparency.  In summary,  you have identified, validated and characterized the impact of recessive lethal alleles associated with failure in commercial cattlemen's herds.     And as Paul Harvey said..... "and now we know the rest of the story."

**Disclaimer:  Successful DNA mapping was done without the use of grants, university or breed associations monetary donations.

-Kendra, wondering what a sale catalog transparency  EPD looks like.
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jonken



Posts : 115
Join date : 2011-12-17
Location : nemo

PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:55 am

More later as I read through the article..... the title: "A (Genetic) star is born.  Through advances in reproductive biology and DNA profiling, animal science researchers help cattlemen become economically successful."

A few paragraphs into the article,  an assistant professor states: "We take the science knowledge and bring it to the producers.  Everything we do in animal science is with that goal in mind: to help producers become more sustainable, efficient and profitable."

2nd page states that this superstar calf born Feb, 2015  is "genetically better than 99 percent of the hundreds of thousands of heifers registered in the AAA.  After weaning, she was fed more grain than other cows her age.  She is allowed to eat all the alfalfa hay she wants."

I'm sure there is a scientific, mathematical calculation that I am not familiar with, but the title and reference "...... help cattlemen become economically successful, sustainable, efficient and profitable"  seems contradictory to the statement "she was fed more grain than other cows her age.  She is allowed to eat all the alfalfa hay she wants."  
Unless one uses a microscope with lenses pre-adjusted for  grain or alfalfa subsidy payments to calculate input expenses, then it seems unlikely  this environment lends to improving economic success for a cattleman.  

On second thought.....  I do remember several times when buffet tables full of food appeared out of nowhere for Shaggy and Scooby Doo and I don't remember them ever having to pay money for any of it.  Using Cousin Eddie's words when he reassured Clark Griswald  "it is the gift that keeps on giving." Smile  
-Kendra
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PatB



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Age : 53
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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:42 am

Kendra

The animal is superior for what traits? The article red lined my BS meter for marketing hype.
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Mean Spirit



Posts : 303
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PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:28 am

The key take home message: Don’t Be Left Behind.
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PatB



Posts : 352
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Yin and Yang of Deceit   Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:11 am

Mean Spirit wrote:
The key take home message:  Don’t Be Left Behind.

If that is superior for Yearling Height and mature height and mature weight I do not want to be on the cutting edge for frame 10 cattle that weigh 2000 plus pounds. You have to do IVF and ET work also before the animal ever has natural calf let alone 3 to see it she is worth flushing. I support genomics when used to help select animals that work under your feed resources and management style not marketing BS.
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