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 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale

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df



Posts : 613
Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:54 pm

MKeeney wrote:
DF, why don`t you get up here and take over these experiments for me...Produce some data for you and money for me Very Happy

Maybe later; got too many irons in the fire right now.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:02 pm

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
DF, why don`t you get up here and take over these experiments for me...Produce some data for you and money for me Very Happy

Maybe later; got too many irons in the fire right now.

5 or 7 iron? you forge your own? Cool
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df



Posts : 613
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PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:41 pm

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
DF, why don`t you get up here and take over these experiments for me...Produce some data for you and money for me Very Happy

Maybe later; got too many irons in the fire right now.

5 or 7 iron? you forge your own? Cool

5 wood and 7 iron. Some days I can't hit the ocean if I was standing on a beach!
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Tue May 03, 2016 9:50 pm

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
DF, why don`t you get up here and take over these experiments for me...Produce some data for you and money for me Very Happy

Maybe later; got too many irons in the fire right now.

df asked

Hereford Guy,

Do you assume most cattle that shed will have calves that perform (weight) towards the top of the contemporary group? Or is your interest in fertility?


what will genomics determine that a 30 calving season wouldn't ?
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df



Posts : 613
Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sat May 07, 2016 7:06 am

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
DF, why don`t you get up here and take over these experiments for me...Produce some data for you and money for me Very Happy

Maybe later; got too many irons in the fire right now.

df asked

Hereford Guy,

Do you assume most cattle that shed will have calves that perform (weight) towards the top of the contemporary group? Or is your interest in fertility?


what will genomics determine that a 30 calving season wouldn't ?

The results of a 30-day calving season is not selection.

It is hoped that by addressing GxE, which is not accounted for in EPDs, that animals that fit an environment would be easier to identify, and thus, have more accurate sire selection.

Once reason fertility has never been seen as high in heritability might be due to GxE.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sat May 07, 2016 7:25 am

what is gxe? it`s scary what a kid may have to unlearn from college; 4-h and FFA unlearning challenge enough...

a 30 day calving season is selection for function...fertility is a part of function...if hair shedding is important to function, that will be selected for as well in the process...



nope, this calf is not a limy...standing beside his dam, he appears to be in line for use here...
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MVCatt



Posts : 141
Join date : 2010-09-24
Age : 42
Location : SW Penn

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sat May 07, 2016 7:48 am

df wrote:


The results of a 30-day calving season is not selection.  

It is hoped that by addressing GxE, which is not accounted for in EPDs, that animals that fit an environment would be easier to identify, and thus, have more accurate sire selection.

Once reason fertility has never been seen as high in heritability might be due to GxE.

Ya what do you dumbasses that actually own cows know about selection....
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EddieM



Posts : 895
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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sat May 07, 2016 9:02 am

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
DF, why don`t you get up here and take over these experiments for me...Produce some data for you and money for me Very Happy

Maybe later; got too many irons in the fire right now.

df asked

Hereford Guy,

Do you assume most cattle that shed will have calves that perform (weight) towards the top of the contemporary group? Or is your interest in fertility?


what will genomics determine that a 30 calving season wouldn't ?

The results of a 30-day calving season is not selection.  

It is hoped that by addressing GxE, which is not accounted for in EPDs, that animals that fit an environment would be easier to identify, and thus, have more accurate sire selection.

Once reason fertility has never been seen as high in heritability might be due to GxE.

But Mike never mentioned that he was using EPDs to account for 30 day breeding/calving. If the GXE test, whatever it is, is to be validated, the cows that calve in the first 30 days would score top or else the test has faults? Surely theory does not overrun results?
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RobertMac



Posts : 377
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PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sat May 07, 2016 10:35 am


The results of a 30-day calving season is not selection...it's self-selection.

Even a dumbass like me can tell if a cow has a calf at side.
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df



Posts : 613
Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sat May 07, 2016 9:00 pm

GxE is Genetics by Environment Interactions.

It means sires rank differently in different environments. The easiest way to think about it is breed differences. For example, Brangus and Beefmaster can do very well in hot, humid climates but not as well in cold climates (compared to Angus). This reranking also occurs within a breed.

Poultry and swine geneticists are well aware of GxE in their species as well.

It has been ignored in the beef evaluations thus far.

I see "selection" as something done prior to breeding. Anytime a bull or females is chosen to mate to each other, there is selection. If you are going to allow ALL males to mate to ALL females, there is NO selection. If you have chosen a portion of the males or females, then you have selected.

Breeders select for function prior to breeding. If your standard practice is culling open animals, then you are practicing "involuntary" culling. However, I would suggest this is not selection.

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df



Posts : 613
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PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sat May 07, 2016 9:03 pm

EddieM wrote:
df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
DF, why don`t you get up here and take over these experiments for me...Produce some data for you and money for me Very Happy

Maybe later; got too many irons in the fire right now.

df asked

Hereford Guy,

Do you assume most cattle that shed will have calves that perform (weight) towards the top of the contemporary group? Or is your interest in fertility?


what will genomics determine that a 30 calving season wouldn't ?

The results of a 30-day calving season is not selection.  

It is hoped that by addressing GxE, which is not accounted for in EPDs, that animals that fit an environment would be easier to identify, and thus, have more accurate sire selection.

Once reason fertility has never been seen as high in heritability might be due to GxE.

But Mike never mentioned that he was using EPDs to account for 30 day breeding/calving.  If the GXE test, whatever it is, is to be validated, the cows that calve in the first 30 days would score top or else the test has faults?  Surely theory does not overrun results?

What is the heritability of calving in the first 30-days? Maybe it is near zero across the US but very high in certain environments. That might mean GxE plays a role in "calving in the first 30-days".
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sun May 08, 2016 4:24 am

selection and culling are words that seem interchangeable...the heritability of a 30 calving season? not much...name a better selection /culling procedure ?????
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EddieM



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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sun May 08, 2016 7:16 am

If Mike is not changing genetics and the environment is the same out on the door step every morning, looks like GXE is pretty stable. If G is skewed by bull selection, then Mike's herd ratios or data would be most valuable. But I don't think that all roosters and all boars breed any female of the same species in the other species comparatives. So actual bull selection is somewhat of a wash if Mike is merely observing birthdate, estimated birth weight and structural correctness.

To gather data to create EPDs for early breeding and female fertility, what data types would be collected? Probably the day of calving after exposure?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sun May 08, 2016 7:30 am

selecting for hair shedding instead of calving date is about as stupid as recommending a heifer as superior because she`s AI sired and genome tested...oh, that`s right, same people involved...
no wonder the show me state saw fit to vote down the check-off increase by a 3 to 1 margin...

You can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all the time.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sun May 08, 2016 8:02 am

MKeeney wrote:
selection and culling are words that seem interchangeable...the heritability of a 30 calving season? not much...name a better selection /culling procedure ?????

Certainly they can be used interchangeable. However, I see selection as proactive, such as picking the small number of females out of a larger group. This is different than culling, or more specifically involuntary culling, which I view as removing animals that do not fit the management and environment and thus were not bred or calved in the desired time frame.

Let's use this scenario; you have 30 heifers and you want to save 15. The top ten were easy to select and the bottom ten were easy to cull. The ten in the middle happen to be very similar from a phenotypic standpoint, although the underlying genetics would tell you there is a fair amount of difference in the value they can deliver to customers.

The beef geneticists are simply trying to improve sire selection, as that is where most producers will make the most selection pressure. A few are also trying to improve female selection.

GxE probably affects beef cattle more than other species, and has already been documented in several breeds.

I think Jared is using hair shedding instead of calving date as he wants to increase the percentage of females that are slick-haired and might be less prone to heat stress. I assume he wants to make this selection prior to exposing the females to a bull.

Hair shedding is NOT the economically relevant trait. Calving date might be a little better but is still not the ERT. Stayability is much closer, as it pertains to females that stay in the herd year after year. However, selecting sires who produce those daughters at a higher rate for such a lowly heritable trait, is fairly difficult from phenotypic selection. If it was easy, it would be a highly heritable trait and respond well to phenotypic selection.
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tulip



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PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sun May 08, 2016 10:50 am

I do not beleive in giving one and a half chance. A thirty day calving window does precisely that. 21 days or 42 days or even 63 days is something that makes sense. I keep all from the first 21 days and usually I am able to not keep any or only keeping few of the later calvers. How does one and a half chance make any sense for any of you?

Tulip, in the vicinity of culling late calvers and trying to understand the humans
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df



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PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sun May 08, 2016 12:37 pm

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sun May 08, 2016 8:46 pm

30 heifers...
The top ten were easy to select and the bottom ten were easy to cull. The ten in the middle happen to be very similar from a phenotypic standpoint, although the underlying genetics would tell you there is a fair amount of difference in the value they can deliver to customers...

the above scenario might exist in terminal selection for change...what are the measured criteria you use to select heifers for maternal purposes? I can`t tell the top from the bottom beforehand, Burke says he can`t either, I`m pretty sure neither you or decker can ...even with measured heifers to the highest degree of accuracy stayability, epds, etc offer...I readily agree 30 day breeding won`t change much genetically, but can you really offer anything better?
of course, scientist want to use bigger populations to find greater variation {to measure} and select from...I want less since the middle suits me fine; maintaining that middle phenotypically will be a damn sight more difficult than breeding for change...

good video; just skimmed it...will study later...turned it off when I heard the words ..."training set"
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df



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PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sun May 08, 2016 9:42 pm

MKeeney wrote:
30 heifers...
The top ten were easy to select and the bottom ten were easy to cull. The ten in the middle happen to be very similar from a phenotypic standpoint, although the underlying genetics would tell you there is a fair amount of difference in the value they can deliver to customers...

the above scenario might exist in terminal selection for change...what are the measured criteria you use to select heifers for maternal purposes? I can`t tell the top from the bottom beforehand, Burke says he can`t either, I`m pretty sure neither you or decker can ...even with measured heifers to the highest degree of accuracy stayability, epds, etc offer...I readily agree 30 day breeding won`t change much genetically, but can you really  offer anything better?
of course, scientist want to use bigger populations to find greater variation {to measure} and select from...I want less since the middle suits me fine; maintaining that middle phenotypically will be a damn sight more difficult than breeding for change...

good video; just skimmed it...will study later...turned it off when I heard the words ..."training set"

I wish they did not use the word "training". The following might provide some clarification;

http://www.nextgencassava.org/genomic_select.html


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df



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PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sun May 08, 2016 10:12 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI9anY7Jj2Q


You might agree with this speaker.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Mon May 09, 2016 8:49 am

MKeeney wrote:
selection and culling are words that seem interchangeable...the heritability of a 30 calving season? not much...name a better selection /culling procedure ?????

Mike,

I think identifying the heifers that get bred early in the breeding season or calving early in the calving season is a viable method. Researchers are looking for a method that improves fertility genetically. I would use a longer breeding season than 30 days, however.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Mon May 09, 2016 9:11 am

An econical hedge factor...after 30 days, crossbreed the test...who wins the maternal contest. ..selection for 30 day calving or Crossbreed outside the 30 day window?
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Mon May 09, 2016 10:18 am

What pork and poultry geneticists learned from GxE is to eliminate the variables of E.

Wouldn't GxE/M. (Environment/Management) be more accurate?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Mon May 09, 2016 11:05 am

RobertMac wrote:
What pork and poultry geneticists learned from GxE is to eliminate the variables of E.

Wouldn't GxE/M. (Environment/Management) be more accurate?

Environment includes management. Your management is part of their environment.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Mon May 09, 2016 11:06 am

MKeeney wrote:
An econical hedge factor...after 30 days, crossbreed the test...who wins the maternal contest. ..selection for 30 day calving or Crossbreed outside the 30 day window?

I don't care for the 30-day test unless they were synchronized and then exposed to bulls. Even then, I don't think the 30-day test is ideal.
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