Keeney`s Corner

A current and reflective discussion of cattle breeding from outside the registered mainstream
 
HomeUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
AuthorMessage
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4624
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:21 pm

gosh, I read this and still like it...

After 50 years, We`ve only just begun...

After 50 years of making a living with Angus cattle as a primary genetic source, now most every cliche I’ve ever heard old people say, I know is true... among those sayings; it seems like only yesterday. I thought it took a lot of money to be a good Angus breeder then; only to learn it took a lot of money to be a popular Angus breeder. We’ve witnessed a lot of breeders lose their cattle; even their shirt trying to be popular; for popular and profitable have often been in conflict for commercial purposes over these 50 years. Instead of money, we found it takes a lot of time to breed anything with consistent, reliable value; so we pause for only a moment to reflect, for time is short. 50 years is too little time for a cattle breeder's work to have any lasting genetic consequence. For a breeder's work to have some consequence, the principles, rather than the genetics, that have evolved from the negative as well as the positive breeding experiences, must be passed to a new generation so that history does not repeat itself.

We are not reinventing the wheel; we’re building a new one; thirty years already spent in understanding the engineering. A cattle breeding wheel that runs a true course has never been invented; only one out of round and out of balance, that wobbles from one fad to the next; leaving more ruts than road in its circling path. The improving of the performance of an individual animal reached it’s apex 25 years ago; yet it remains the common goal of the registered societies; now backed and promoted with scientific possibility; not scientific fact...and wherever monies can be appropriated; even now regulated by government with the full blessing and even the initiation of so-called farm organizations {bureaucracies}. I have paraphrased a new saying, wherever two or more shall gather and form an association, a tax upon as many as possible shall soon follow.

So to build and sell something revolutionary that defies popularity and government promotion is a difficult task. Some don’t like my tone as I go about this work; I’ve never worried how my tone was perceived by the public; only if what I was saying was nearer to the truth as I knew it at that time. Reputation is what you are perceived to be; character is what you really are. Genetics can make any predictor a liar; so much so, that a quote from an inspiration, Thomas Paine, is in order, “I have always strenuously supported the right of every man to his own opinion, however different that opinion might be to mine. He who denies another this right makes a slave of himself to his present opinion, because he precludes himself the right of changing it.” Having died before the registered cattle industry in America was born, Paine never realized that a time would come that one must discern between honest opinion and the hyperbole of sales promotion, and that one need have no respect for the latter. We must never forget that being in the majority is not proof of being in the right. Perhaps a more inviting and uniting tone will someday stand forth; in the meanwhile, my tone must suffice. My tone is not what I have become, but what I have always been . I am most appreciative of the people who not only recognize that, but accept it as well.

A concept of harnessing hybrid power for the improvement of the profitability of commercial beef producers via a systems approach of complimentary mating of more predictable breeding animals was put in print by Larry Leonhardt in 1983 in a pamphlet commonly referred to among subscribers as Tru-line. {Copies will be available sale day} While inspiring the imagination of some and the platitudes of many, the concept languished in obscurity until recent years. With the increased accessibility of the internet, the visibility of the Tru-line approach has been substantially increased; and now, is even being adopted by young, energetic breeders as the system for which they will breed they own cattle. www.keeneyscorner.com has become a meeting place to share the ideas and experiences of these young breeders from across the United States and Canada. Supporting these young breeders is a seasoned group of purebred and commercial producers freely sharing their successes and failures of cattle breeding experience; hand in hand, advancing a concept unlike any done before in cattle breeding; though already the prevalent breeding concept of the pork, poultry, and plant breeding world.

Having reached an age of financial independence, partly by the economic livelihood that cattle and the hard work of my parents and wife have provided; and equally so by the mere fact of being old, my primary ambition is now the spreading of a Tru-line type concept. Sales and prices are secondary issues; the bulls and females we sell pose as the raw seeds we sow of a differing concept based on genetic truth; we believe truth always prevails; it is not a matter of if, but of when. The commercial cattleman cannot afford the games and the promotions of the current registered societies forever; in fact, not even in the present, for these games and promotions are now paid for with money from outside the cattle industry. These early raw seeds of the concept will be sown across the land; some will fall on barren ground and fail to germinate; others might lay fallow, and then spring forth after the owner has more experience; some will not sustain themselves; some will not meet the expectations of the new owners; despite fair warning of the difficulty of the task; some breeders will over-complicate; others will over-simplify...but some will survive, both genes and breeders, and chart a new and truer course for others to follow; this is more than the road less traveled , this is a road not yet traveled , and it is a source of infinite self-satisfaction that the journey is moving forward; one breeder at a time.

Thank you for reading and being a part of Keeney Angus in some fashion over these past 50 years. In honor of the combined cattle breeding influences who have come before me, I quote K.A. Clark who paraphrased Coleridge, “joy rises in me like a summer morn when I am in the company of fellow cattlemen and in the company of my own cattle”...and might I add... “as we walk together on a road not yet traveled believing that courage is placing your dreams above your fears.”
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4624
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:44 am

I read another pelton sale report and this thought hit me...6000$ bull sale average creates a $1400 commercial heifer average...seems out of value relation to me
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Mean Spirit



Posts : 321
Join date : 2010-09-26

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:59 am

I was actually thinking about the traditional ways folks are meant to value purebred herdsires-- the whole "you should pay the value of 8 (or ever how many) feeder steers for a bull" thing.

Who came up with that? Probably the vendor of the bull, not the buyer.
Back to top Go down
Mark Day



Posts : 243
Join date : 2010-09-24
Age : 51
Location : Russellville, Ohio

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:00 am

Mike - I think many of your sale messages and ads are worthy of you making a Top 10 list of your favorites from all the years. Favorites not so much for the bull prices you got but for the responses that you got from your audiences. The donkey and the cart would certainly be Top 5.
Back to top Go down
EddieM



Posts : 895
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:03 pm

Mark Day wrote:
Mike - I think many of your sale messages and ads are worthy of you making a Top 10 list of your favorites from all the years.  Favorites not so much for the bull prices you got but for the responses that you got from your audiences.  The donkey and the cart would certainly be Top 5.
Messages, ads and promotion: I still do not know the differences. Two general types of ads: presence in the market and sales of ready products.
Back to top Go down
Mark Day



Posts : 243
Join date : 2010-09-24
Age : 51
Location : Russellville, Ohio

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:04 pm

EddieM - my 2 cents worth .... Messages are what you put in the sale book describing your program/philosophy and are longer than an ad. Ads are more like Tweets - short and to the point of what you got and how it can help you - a promo as you might call it. There is also the educational message too that explains cattle breeding 101.
Back to top Go down
pukerimu



Posts : 246
Join date : 2012-06-02
Location : Norsewood, New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:51 pm

Down here the average rule of thumb is 10 weaner cattle value is the expected cost of a bull. Of course here the usual age for buying a bull is 2 year old. The seed stock breeder has kept and grazed and grown out that bull for 2 years. If they were not doing that then they could have run at least 10 other stock units - be that ewes (10) or cows (4) older fattening cattle (3 to 4) or 10 weaners. It is the buyers choice - they either try to grow out bulls themselves or they compensate someone else for doing so. In our experience those that try to grow them out fall into two categories - those who do it well and continue to do so and those that think it is a good idea ............. once - after they have kept a couple of options who are hard to contain in non specialist bull fencing, then start fighting and smash up all the fences and cannot be reconciled resulting in one dead and one injured beyond repair. Nothing puts a Kiwi farmer off an idea faster than reducing stock units to grow out a couple of their bulls and then having to go and source a bull from somewhere else anyway - in a panic, after the sale season has finished, scraping the bottom of the barrel - they are usually first to arrive at the sale the next year lol! .
Back to top Go down
http://www.mtmableangus.co.nz
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4624
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:17 pm

do many commercial NZ herds AI ?
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
pukerimu



Posts : 246
Join date : 2012-06-02
Location : Norsewood, New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:26 pm

Hardly any - there is a NZ Beef and Lamb project underway with 5 large properties (three of them ag training farms and two Govt Lancorp owned - so labour and cost not an issue) where bulls are being compared through an ongoing a/I programme. There should be Fat Boy calves in the latest calf drop (2016) - they are assessing how the figures stack up with reality, fertility and calf survivability. First lot of calves (born in 2015) will be yearlings now so I guess the heifers will have been mated and the steers nearly ready for processing - they are all eid recorded and traced. Generally cow mating in NZ also coincides with docking or weaning or some other mammoth task involving the sheep flock - of which most farmers who have breeding cows have vast numbers. Chasing around cows in heat or finding several days to undertake a synchronised a/I programme not on many agendas.
Back to top Go down
http://www.mtmableangus.co.nz
RobertMac



Posts : 377
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:44 am

pukerimu wrote:
.... It is the buyers choice - they either try to grow out bulls themselves or they compensate someone else for doing so.  In our experience those that try to grow them out fall into two categories - those who do it well and continue to do so and those that think it is a good idea ............. once - after they have kept a couple of options who are hard to contain in non specialist bull fencing, then start fighting and smash up all the fences and cannot be reconciled resulting in one dead and one injured beyond repair.  Nothing puts a Kiwi farmer off an idea faster than reducing stock units to grow out a couple of their bulls and then having to go and source a bull from somewhere else anyway - in a panic, after the sale season has finished, scraping the bottom of the barrel - they are usually first to arrive at the sale the next year  lol! .

Message, ad or promotion?
Back to top Go down
EddieM



Posts : 895
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:53 pm

RobertMac wrote:
pukerimu wrote:
.... It is the buyers choice - they either try to grow out bulls themselves or they compensate someone else for doing so.  In our experience those that try to grow them out fall into two categories - those who do it well and continue to do so and those that think it is a good idea ............. once - after they have kept a couple of options who are hard to contain in non specialist bull fencing, then start fighting and smash up all the fences and cannot be reconciled resulting in one dead and one injured beyond repair.  Nothing puts a Kiwi farmer off an idea faster than reducing stock units to grow out a couple of their bulls and then having to go and source a bull from somewhere else anyway - in a panic, after the sale season has finished, scraping the bottom of the barrel - they are usually first to arrive at the sale the next year  lol! .

Message, ad or promotion?
Don't know. Sounds like terrible disposition EPDs for those bulls. Here's my message: if they are that bad, find better ones or just stick with the sheep that sound like the money makers.
Back to top Go down
pukerimu



Posts : 246
Join date : 2012-06-02
Location : Norsewood, New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:06 pm

Merry Christmas to you two too ........................

Eddie sadly sheep are not being very rewarding at the moment.  Wool has completely crashed ($4.80 a kilo last year - same wool this year $2.80 kg ..................) with 18.8 kg lambs fetching $85 from the processors with threats of taking the schedule down even lower in the New Year - put it this way - sheep farmers are smiling when they are getting $110 per lamb - we have gotten as much as $125 but with Brexit and your orange man soon to be in charge our dollar is all over the place (to high!!!) and uncertainty rules the lamb market.  Little wonder that the spring yearling bull sales have been out of the ball park this year in numbers sold and prices paid - just about every beef or beef cross heifer in NZ has had a bull put with it seemingly!  Seems the world cannot get enough of NZ grass fed beef with prices staying high.

As for marketing and promotion - is anyone on this forum actually likely to buy anything off me?  Thereby there is no marketing or promotion intentional - before you get all judgey judgey about temperament of bulls or farming ability of NZ farmers you need to change your ideas about how those bulls are being managed - they are not in a pen on feed - no they are tucked away in a paddock somewhere where no sheep have to go through.  If they are lucky they will have trough water and the fighting is likely to start when they get short of feed or cycling females are close by - the US system of having yards and pens in which cattle live is generally unheard of.  The cattle yards are used for animal health, shipping and drafting - nothing more nothing less - generally a couple or more bulls hanging around the place taking up space that could be used for some other class of fattening / growing stock is neither practical or financially effective.  We have one family and a very large station whom buy a bull that they consider "stud" quality (in the case of the station - sometimes 3) from which they will keep the biggest fastest growing bull calves entire for their own use - the Station has over 2500 cows and in that number a select mob that they consider worthy of keeping sons from.

As for the sheep work - the Station has about 20,000 of the woolly maggots - probably a few less after this season, and possibly more cows, and the family farm about 4,500. It has been a tough 2016 in NZ with a wide scale drought and then facial eczema decimating lambing percentages and stock numbers.  Very happy to have a grand total of 49 ewes - docking the lambs took half an hour - can you hear me grinning as I type (compared to the three week effort this time last year!)
Back to top Go down
http://www.mtmableangus.co.nz
Grassfarmer



Posts : 850
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:47 pm

Not judging, just questioning the math. Don't see how you could replace 1 bull with 4 cows scratch We sell 2 year old bulls too and from birth to sale time they eat essentially the same as a bred heifer, same development except through the second winter when they weigh the same as a cow versus a bred heifer. I can't see how their lifetime (to 2) feed consumption could possibly be more than 1 cow kept for the same time.
Back to top Go down
http://www.luingcattle.com
pukerimu



Posts : 246
Join date : 2012-06-02
Location : Norsewood, New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:05 pm

In NZ the animals are grazed all year - if a paddock is taken out of rotation because it has bulls being grown out then that is area that cannot be used to run other stock classes - less paddock space = less other stock - also unless fencing is hot wired the stock that can be run within cooee of the bulls is also limited.
Back to top Go down
http://www.mtmableangus.co.nz
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4624
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:01 am

Price becomes more a tradition than an exercise in economic logic in many areas...and talk about university and breed association malfeasance worst than epd promotion  is the  promotion of how much more the top bull adds to a herd versus the average bull of a herd population....
I would love to sell 100 yearlings per year for 150% x 1000 of feeder futures ....equaling $1950 currently...a two year old should be 150% of that figure, or around $2900 plus...nope,  I can`t get that much, and I`m too scared they will become three year olds {worth $1200 more or less at yards} to ask it...I`ve found older than yearling bulls to be more destructive of each other than of facilities...
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Bob H



Posts : 372
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:53 am

Larry had an interesting way of pricing his 2 year old bulls. They have a large cow auction in Billings every year in early December. He thought that a 2 year old bull should be worth twice what an average bred cow was. This fall I believe that they brought 1500 dollars on average so a 2 year old bull should be 3000 and if you bought in numbers he would give a 200 dollar discount. On our yearling bulls we try to price them at 500 dollars over what we can get out of a yearling steer that we would sell at 18 months. It seems to keep buyers coming back and it is above our cost of production so we know that it is profitable with out many more input costs. Bob H
Back to top Go down
RobertMac



Posts : 377
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:30 am

pukerimu wrote:
.... It is the buyers choice - they either try to grow out bulls themselves or they compensate someone else for doing so.  In our experience those that try to grow them out fall into two categories - those who do it well and continue to do so and those that think it is a good idea ............. once - after they have kept a couple of options who are hard to contain in non specialist bull fencing, then start fighting and smash up all the fences and cannot be reconciled resulting in one dead and one injured beyond repair.  Nothing puts a Kiwi farmer off an idea faster than reducing stock units to grow out a couple of their bulls and then having to go and source a bull from somewhere else anyway - in a panic, after the sale season has finished, scraping the bottom of the barrel - they are usually first to arrive at the sale the next year  lol! .

Message, ad or promotion?

Is this truly a normal narrative in NZ?
Back to top Go down
EddieM



Posts : 895
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:01 am

Quote :
As for marketing and promotion - is anyone on this forum actually likely to buy anything off me?
Why not? Must have thought about it to ask the question!

Quote :
Thereby there is no marketing or promotion intentional - before you get all judgey judgey about temperament of bulls or farming ability of NZ farmers you need to change your ideas about how those bulls are being managed - they are not in a pen on feed - no they are tucked away in a paddock somewhere where no sheep have to go through. If they are lucky they will have trough water and the fighting is likely to start when they get short of feed or cycling females are close by - the US system of having yards and pens in which cattle live is generally unheard of. The cattle yards are used for animal health, shipping and drafting - nothing more nothing less - generally a couple or more bulls hanging around the place taking up space that could be used for some other class of fattening / growing stock is neither practical or financially effective. We have one family and a very large station whom buy a bull that they consider "stud" quality (in the case of the station - sometimes 3) from which they will keep the biggest fastest growing bull calves entire for their own use - the Station has over 2500 cows and in that number a select mob that they consider worthy of keeping sons from.

Not judging intentions: Like Dragnet, "Just the facts, Mam". Bad bulls are bad bulls like you described. Did not know that they were thirsty, hungry, tempted, but sounded destructive by the description. Bulls here on rented property. I see them about every 10 days to 2 weeks. they see landowner come and go. Pastures - no problem like you described but boys will be boys and so I watch for a flightly bull at weaning or a questionably aggressive bull at any age. More issue with flight than aggression over the years except for one SPECIAL, GREAT AI sire or two!

Quote :
before you get all judgey judgey about temperament of bulls or farming ability of NZ farmers
Totally uncalled for.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   

Back to top Go down
 
2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 10 of 10Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
 Similar topics
-
» 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale
» 2015 Keeney Angus Bull Sale
» 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale
» Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013
» 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Keeney`s Corner :: Advertise :: For Sale-
Jump to: