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  Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience

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Bob H



Posts : 372
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:21 pm

Hello everyone,
Time flies in the last couple of years. We now have 8 grandchildren and as far as I can tell the Howard/ Painter {Pam) DNA is thriving along with the other Grandparents.
Pam, Jessica, Graden and I are still partnering in Howard ranches. We were in another partnership until lately but dissolved it as it had served its purpose. We also started a Grass-fed business this summer with another ranch family. The reason for writing this post is to relate our experience in True-line breeding that Larry Leonhardt started us on some 16 years ago and has proven right on so far as we have progressed forward to 2016.

The Cattle; in 1998 we had a cross-bred mess as I had believed what other people in academia had written. We went along we thought fairly well every year until we had to replace 25% of the cow herd because of the hybrid mess (opens, didn’t raise calves, cripples etc.). At that time it would take the profit out and setting us up to struggle for the next year to be profitable.
Then along comes a fellow who farmed sugar beets for a living and raised cattle for a science project. He thought at that time you should have different lines of cattle for different end products. What a novel idea.

It was also so interesting over the rest of his life that he was able to shift the paradigms in his mind also.

We purchased a few bulls the first year and thought about what this mad scientist had said. We went back the next year to pick a few bulls and get the start on my education that came in 36 hour mind numbing back and forth lecture's that were soothed over with a smoked filled atmosphere. This continued on for maybe 5 to 7 years as I still thought that my eye could pick something better than the average of the mob of 250 bulls, (me being a superior judge of livestock ha ha.) But what it did over a 10 year period of time allowing me to learn from the master thinker was; if you have a fairly good set cattle and you did not fool with the input genes not to create trouble by using outside supplements that were not on your ranch, and by culling the problems if the percentage was not over a livable number. By using out crosses for a terminable end product and cash; that over time you can produce a set of cattle that are sustainable in your environment and if you do not mortgage them with things that they the cows have no way of paying for you will prosper.

Over time I realized that we were just buying genetics and quit going to pick bulls & just had Larry decide what to send, but kept in touch on the phone and thru visits until his passing.
I wanted to give this introduction as tribute to Larry, the most unselfish teacher and progressive thinker that I have ever met.
I am going to try to write now what has happened at Howard ranches over 20 years because of Larry Leonhardt tru-line concept. We started with a cross-bred mess to what I now believe is the strongest set of 600 hd Angus cows herd that have not had any other injection of genes since 2000. We keep our own bulls and use the same number of Eaton Charolais bulls on 400 hundred of these cows to make heifers and the straight Angus males to sell other commercial cowmen. We breed these 400 cows in one group with multiple sires which keeps the inbred regression to a real livable low number. We also want the f1 cross charolais hfrs to use on our terminal cross program. The only terminal product out of this mating are the f1 charolais steers which we sell for a premium into the natural grain fed market. There will also be about 15 Angus steers and 30 hfrs that do not suit me.

My wife and I were on a marketing team for a natural beef company 10 or so years ago and interviewed allot of customers in about 80 high end grocery stores over a 2 year period about their likes and dislikes of beef. One of their greatest likes was where it came from and if it was safe. The next question was it confined and was it fed corn. They then would talk about tenderness, taste and texture. With this information we begin to form a product in our mind that would fit what this high end consumer would use their shopping dollars to purchase. What we came up with was a rancher raised, safe, grass-fed, tender, juicy, fine texture meat that had never been confined along with year round supply.

For a couple of years we researched allot of grass-fed schemes. Cattle type, grass type, etc. Knowing what Larry had taught us we thought what if we started with a true hybrid cattle that would fit the cattle part of this formula. We started maybe 5 or 6 years ago using Akaushi bulls on our Angus 1st calf hfrs. This first project was no huge success as we had some calving trouble and we were not ready to start selling grass-fed product. We then partnered with another rancher and bought several loads of cows that were bred Akaushi, the calves out of these cows were ok but we did not understand the need of cattle that needed more energy as our personal Line-bred cattle are good with our energy that is readily available. These cattle were all sold to go back to a feedlot in Texas and it was plenty good enough. We were learning without allot of cost so far.

Three years ago the folks that raised the bulls seem to have gotten a handle on the calving ease so we decided to breed hfrs again. That winter by accident, I found that if we would give these f1 Akaushi cross calves a better winter that they would out grow our Angus calves. (Wintering on grain pasture) The hfrs calved fine.
This spring, April 2015 a fellow came to us and asked if we could furnish some grass-fed cattle for a grass fed program he had and did not have enough cattle for from July to November. Supplying 30 hd at about 6 hd per month, we killed 4 hd of these f1’s on July 10th. The cattle could not have been over 16 months, the carcasses were around 600lbs and the meat was fine, pink but lacked the traditionally desired marbling look. The day had finely came for a taste test of rancher raised, safe, grass-fed ,tender, juicy, non confined and fine textured meat. The answering result was YES! To all the above and has been consistent after 40 hd to date.

This comes full circle because of Tru-line breeding. We have started to refine what we are doing but because of Larry Leonhardt the journey has had a huge head start.
It is Sunday and I write this as a tribute and will write more later.
Bob Howard


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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Sun Dec 06, 2015 9:36 pm

Bob on these grass cattle you are killing now - is it a feature of the Akaushi cattle that they are producing pink coloured beef lacking marbling? The grass-fed beef we have been retailing over the last decade sounds similar otherwise - a 600lb average, 17 month old, fine textured and tender - but it is dark and marbled. What type of pasture were these cattle on for their last 90 days?
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:24 am

Grassy it has become more marbled as we went along but has retained a much lighter color and is not as beefy flavor but more of a buttery taste. We are harvesting 12 angus cross cattle every other week along with 4 half Akaushi. The conventional meat is fairly consistent with out any complaints as the folks that are buying it expect a more beefy darker product. The half bred Akaushi looks more like grain finished beef and eats like candy. The grass has been a mix from high mountain irrigated in the summer to Alfalfa after math until last week. We still have the big growing cattle on Alfalfa and rye pasture. But moved the finish cattle to another ranch for winter and are feeding them Hay, Sudan grass silage, some molasses and dry beet pulp. We will not kill out of their until the 16th but cattle seem to be enjoying their new home fine. It will be interesting to see what they do.

Bob H
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:33 am

new pictures from Bob...Bob, surely you didn`t send lasy years by mistake? they seem near identical Very Happy























Bob, you can fill in the grass...I can`t tell crested from cheat Neutral
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:14 am

Mike it sure is odd that every year the Line-bred cows look more alike and there are more of them that produce in the top of the middle with less trouble and inputs. It must be because My daughter puts the boys with the girls with the boys and we end up with these.

In all seriousness it was because of a man that had the ability to think, learn and share something better. Thank you Larry Leonhardt.

About the grass the taller bunch grass in some photos is crested wheat. The other shorter grasses are cheat and native perennials. Some of these fields are really starting to recover from annuals to perianal desert landscapes it is like turning rocks into fertilizer, it just takes time. Bob
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:33 am

Bob , are you having a bull sale any time soon?
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:17 am

Mike we sell will sell the bull calves off winter wheat pasture on April 15th there are 65 this year. We price them at 2000 each on a lottery drawing. Which means that you draw a number walk in and pick a bull, if you plan on taking 4 or more then we allow folks to pick 2 at a time. I will take allot more pictures of all kinds of true-line and true line f1 cross cattle next week and get them posted. Thanks Bob H
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:47 am

some more pics from Bob...he will add comments...









my comments...where`s the grass for the grass-fed Bob? and the uniformity has taken a hit...are there now multiple objectives and markets to pursue?
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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:56 am

more pics...Bob will add comment...







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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:49 am

To answer your questions first question; The objective of these feeder cattle from now until March 1st is to gain 1.5 lbs per day and to get to spring and summer. In the last picture you can observe what they are eating.
The lack of uniformity in these pictures shows several different programs and ages mixed together. I will explain a little with each picture.

Pic 1 is a panorama of hay field after math on approx 400 acre that has 1100 calves in it. They are a mixture of several different classes of spring calves as we are getting from Dec 15 to March 1 in this area on pasture.

Pic 2 is of a mix of calves of which I would like to talk about 2 in particular. The gray heifer standing side view is an f1 Char Angus cross which we will breed in the spring to and Akaushi bull to get an end product for the grass-fed program. This will get 100lbs of hot carcass weight more than if out of our Line-bred Angus cows yet will retain a great eating experience, and smaller cow than a straight bred Charolais cow. She has a great chance of having a good udder and good maternal instincts along with fertility because of the f1 hybrid out of true-line parents. Her offspring will always be terminal. The orange calf standing beside her is a terminal cross result of this type of mating.

Pic 3 is of a random set of Akaushi cross 10 month old calves that will be harvested next year in our grass-fed business.

Pic 4 is another mix of calves but focus on the grey heifer to the left as she is and f1 cross maternal and the red calf is the result of an f1 cross and Akaushi. Twp observations in both pic 2 and 4 is the offspring from the f1 crosses are larger framed and in less flesh condition. The less flesh condition I attribute to them out growing what we are furnishing at this time for energy. When spring comes along and our grasses take off in energy the compensatory gain in these cattle should be tremendous.

Pic 5 The black heifer facing is the base for all of the stuff. She is a line-bred true line which will replace her with her offspring on a regular basis both male and female. The gray heifer eating is the result of an True-line Shoshone mother and an Eaton Charolais bull making an f1 cross to raise terminal offspring with 100 lbs more carcass weight. When we use the Akaushi on these we get a more predictable, tender great tasting product off of grass. The other black calf standing sideways is an Akaushi crossed on a purchased cow it should be good to eat but all of the other things are not as predicable.

Pic 6 is just another angle of picture 2.

Pic 7 is of an F1 ten month old female that has already came into season to breed notice how the hair on her back is roughed up. It seems plenty of energy in feed for females that are bred to be fertile females to breed on.

Pic 8 is showing this re-growth timothy grass on Dec 21st with a panorama of 250 calves on about 60 acres.

THANKS TO LARRY’S TEACHING & KNOWLEDGE and my addiction to cattle, these are a few of the results!
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:29 pm

Bob, how far ahead in $ terms do you reckon you are by the time you retain the Char x cows to produce the Akaushi offspring to fatten? Versus grass-fattening your Angus steers and using the Char crosses for terminal cattle. Presumably the char x cows cost more to maintain than the straight blacks and then you have the cost of the Akaushi bulls?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:53 pm

some edit work for easier read...mk


Pic 1 is a panorama of hay field after math on approx 400 acre that has 1100 calves in it. They are a mixture of
several different classes of spring calves as we are getting from Dec 15 to March 1 in this area on pasture.



Pic 2 is of a mix of calves of which I would like to talk about 2 in particular. The gray heifer standing side
view is an f1 Char Angus cross which we will breed in the spring to and Akaushi bull to get an end product
for the grass-fed program. This will get 100lbs of hot carcass weight more than if out of our Line-bred Angus
cows yet will retain a great eating experience, and smaller cow than a straight bred Charolais cow. She has
a great chance of having a good udder and good maternal instincts along with fertility because of the f1 hybrid
out of true-line parents. Her offspring will always be terminal. The orange calf standing beside her is a terminal
cross result of this type of mating.



Pic 3 is of a random set of Akaushi cross 10 month old calves that will be harvested next year in our grass-fed business



Pic 4 is another mix of calves but focus on the grey heifer to the left as she is and f1 cross maternal and the red
calf is the result of an f1 cross and Akaushi. Twp observations in both pic 2 and 4 is the offspring from the f1 crosses
are larger framed and in less flesh condition. The less flesh condition I attribute to them out growing what we are
furnishing at this time for energy. When spring comes along and our grasses take off in energy the compensatory
gain in these cattle should be tremendous.



Pic 5 The black heifer facing is the base for all of the stuff. She is a line-bred true line which will replace her
with her offspring on a regular basis both male and female. The gray heifer eating is the result of an
True-line Shoshone mother and an Eaton Charolais bull making an f1 cross to raise terminal offspring with
100 lbs more carcass weight. When we use the Akaushi on these we get a more predictable, tender great tasting
product off of grass. The other black calf standing sideways is an Akaushi crossed on a purchased cow it should
be good to eat but all of the other things are not as predicable.



Pic 6 is just another angle of picture 2.


Pic 7 is of an F1 ten month old female that has already came into season to breed notice how the hair on her
back is roughed up. It seems plenty of energy in feed for females that are bred to be fertile females to breed on.



Pic 8 is showing this re-growth timothy grass on Dec 21st with a panorama of 250 calves on about 60 acres.

And Grassy asked
Bob, how far ahead in $ terms do you reckon you are by the time you retain the Char x cows to produce the
Akaushi offspring to fatten? Versus grass-fattening your Angus steers and using the Char crosses for terminal cattle.
Presumably the char x cows cost more to maintain than the straight blacks and then you have the cost of the Akaushi bulls?
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:14 am

The dollar return on the additional 100lbs of carcass is easy it is 380 dollars per hd. The Char x cows will not be that much bigger than a our Angus cows as they are true f1 cross so I would think that they only eat 2or 3 lbs of feed per day more feed or 1100 lbs per year at 4 cents per lb is 44 dollars. We do not breed the biggest end of these as they do not look feminine.
The 20 hd of coming three year olds had 3 opens last fall which is 85% bred which is not accurate because there was not 100 to see for sure but is livable as they were in our harshest environment.
The other reason to worry about carcass size is economy of scale at the harvesting as it does not take much more to receive that other 100lbs and the cuts are around that 11 to 12 inch rib eye that the consumer wants.
The main reason for introducing the Akaushi was to try to get a year around good quality eating experience off of grass using our true line knowledge. After 6 months Larry knowledge has held to be true in the counter as well. The Angus beef is good to eat with a strong beef flavor. The Akaushi cross beef is just like eating candy with a delightful texture and flavor.

We were at the store on Dec 18th with meat that had been harvested on Dec 1 and cooked a New York Strip for some samples, a fellow we gave a piece to stated he thought that it was tenderloin.

Our goal in this Grass fed business is to give the consumer what they want at a price that will keep us and all of our grass growing farmer partners sustainable. We think that by using Larry's trueline system it is allot simpler to achieve.

Thanks Grassy as it is great to have to think and do the math some more, I welcome all questions. Bob H
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:22 am

The cost of the Akaushi bulls is greater but not by much over the Char's but the longevity of them has been tremendous as we have purchased 50 so far over 6 years and had only 2 die so far with all of the others still able to get the cows bred as the main cow herds that they bred were 95 to 97 % bred on mature cows and 91% first calf heifers that were expected to breed on grass at 14 to 16 months of age as we only breed these for 50 days. Bob H
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Thu Dec 24, 2015 8:51 am

Bob, what about the F1 bull calves? I assume they go to meat.
How do they compare to the 3-way bull calves out of the F1 females?

My herd isn't large enough for a crossbreeding program, so I sell my tru-line bulls as meat. Raising them as bulls gets my customers 50-100 lbs. more meat. The biggest concern for my customers is knowing where the meat comes from and how it was raised.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Thu Dec 24, 2015 9:08 am

Thread drift...Robert did you survive the night unharmed?
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Thu Dec 24, 2015 9:35 am

We castrate all the males out of these crosses . The f1 char ang x go into a natural grain fed program. The f1 cross calves at weaning compare In weight to the f1 Akaushi x but what is not comparable is the meat quality on this grass fed project. That is not to say they are not good to eat but do not compare to Akaushi cross in eating experience. Our customer also want to know were the meat comes from and how it is handled etc. but in a niche market we are able to go further with this product in uniformity and quality in our opinion. We will know in the future what our customer base think. In July we are going to try to ramp this business up, time and dollars should speak for them self. If it is something that is just in our mind the demand will not be there. Thanks for the questions Bob H.
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:23 am

Thanks for asking, Mike. We're fine. Had one storm a few miles west of me with a warning, but nothing came from it.

Bob, I find it interesting the difference in meat quality between the two crosses.
What about differences in time of harvest?

From my experience, the demand is there. Soon you'll be keeping those charXang F1s for grassfed.
My original idea was to have every animal leave this place as meat or breeders.
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:59 am

Thanks for the update Bob,
From the Tru-Line concept we know the more crosses the greater the range of potential variance and the added management of more groups bred different ways.
I'm assuming you are using the Char part for the extra growth...I wonder how much too light the single cross would be if you bred the larger end of your angus to larger end Akaushi bulls?
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:33 pm

Thanks for the input. We may someday use the f1 char ang x in a different program. But for now we are going to build on our Akaushi cross cattle in the grass-fed as there are only a handful in the US and we think that the product will have great demand.

Hilly the reason that we have faith in the crosses that we are making to have consistency is Larry explained it to me like this you can cross two line -bred parents one time and get a more consistant product than parents. Then you can cross that f1 with a true -line to get a terminal product with high consistency. The only other cross that you can do one time is to cross a true f1 with a true f1 from two other true-lines one time for another terminal cross with fairly good consistency and from there any other crossing is just a random mess.

Our Angus cow herd is genetically similar so if the phenotype is large or small their offspring have a large percentage in the middle of the bell curve. The ends out of that true line is not very consistent as to being out of a bigger or smaller cow but seem to be right on with 7.5 % larger calves at weaning and 7.5% smaller. Bob H
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:48 pm

About the time of harvest my observation is our linebred cattle and Char x cattle will lay on fat on the outside and have a look of you had better harvest me today as I have quit growing and am just wasting grass. The Akaushi cattle seem to keep growing with enough finish to harvest for a longer period.

We started killing both groups in July at 16 months some cattle are certainly done before others but I think a lot of it was how they wintered the winter before and their childhood on the mother. Another difference was there birth date. I have sent Mike some more pictures of some cattle that will start to harvest in the last of March. We will try to get some pictures of the cattle that are in the next 90 days harvests. Bob H
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Sat Dec 26, 2015 7:53 pm

Bob, your 10 month old black bulls look familiar (and dang good to me) to lots of folks here:)







but I didn`t realize you had bought farao red Angus bulls? Rolling Eyes but they are about what you should expect when you are
breeding for more calving ease than anyone in the red angus breed... Smile

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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:38 am

Mike the red bulls are Akaushi. We tried to buy their mothers but the folks that own them were unable to sell them yet so we run 40 hd of cows for them with a buy back program on the bull calves. The red calves were born Sept to Nov of 14. The oldest a black calf could be is Feb 20th of 15. It is surprising to me how over time our Angus cattle have created the form that we thought was most functional in our environment and continue in my opinion to improve and become more functional. I accredit it to one individual Larry, and now it is written on Keeny's corner.

Bob H
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:07 am

Bob H wrote:
Mike the red bulls are Akaushi. We tried to buy their mothers but the folks that own them were unable to sell them yet so we run 40 hd of cows for them with a buy back program on the bull calves. Bob H

I thought they looked a little too thick and functional to be farao `s   Laughing  ...but you know how it goes...most breeds are primarily recognizable by most people by color...even the Shoshone breed within the Angus breed that we make our cows with...Larry always wished his cattle could have been purple Wink  or some other unique, identifiable color characteristic that would have separated them from the black hodgepodge ...within herd selection was getting them there, another 100 years they might all be fawn colored...easy Pat, don`t go rushing for the dna; it`s not a genetic challenge Cool

The origin of dogs: Study shows furry friends go back 33,000 years

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PostSubject: Re: Update from Howard ranch on our true line experience   Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:55 pm

tell us what we are looking at here Bob...I`m particularly interested instead of "where`s the beef? " "where`s the grass? "  Laughing











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