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 Riddle me this

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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:03 am

Man you nailed it 62, Right on, right on, right on!
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:42 am

Great picture of your bull Dennis! In regard to Jbobs concerns regarding the bull we had one that weighed up pretty heavy for weaning and had a good yearling weight (i guess anyways) Depsite the fact of his heavy wwt his calves don't offer the growth that he experienced as a calf and they are just right IMHO. Index at 102 (ish) But most importantly they do fine on their own and maintain a moderate frame. So could it be that regardless of Jbobs bull being so explosive in is growth that his calves would revert back to an "average"
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:51 am

dunc wrote:
Great picture of your bull Dennis! In regard to Jbobs concerns regarding the bull we had one that weighed up pretty heavy for weaning and had a good yearling weight (i guess anyways) Depsite the fact of his heavy wwt his calves don't offer the growth that he experienced as a calf and they are just right IMHO. Index at 102 (ish) But most importantly they do fine on their own and maintain a moderate frame. So could it be that regardless of Jbobs bull being so explosive in is growth that his calves would revert back to an "average"

All outliers breed toward the average of the population; the top gainers breed down...and never mentioned, the bottom gainers breed up...hmmm, the outcrosses are most likely to breed down as well depending on the level of heterosis...

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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:11 am

-37 and windy here this morning. Dunc I am positive that he will produce average in the population of cows. There is no reason for anyone to think any differently. He is a outlier in my herd for sure! But is probalby quite average or below for others. If I used him in my herd I would expect that I get bigger weights and performance. If SAV used him it would be a joke?

By the way I went to Billings this weekend for daughters b-ball games. So I took a trip to Midland and he is still alive and breathing.

J.Bob Hould
Havre,Mt
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:02 am

dunc wrote:
Great picture of your bull Dennis!

Mr. Dunc,

In the old paradigm I see your point, that this was a great photograph. Back then, this was the way. Now for me, it's ancient history. It represents "illusionistic bovine promotional aggrandizement". The Angus Journal exemplifies this ancient era. If you can be so kind, at your expense I've made this point since this is a reflective and futuristic view of cattle breeding from outside the registered mainstream. I am part of a new movement in the cattle industry to separate from the ancient history most bovine breeders are still in, including the so-called grass/pud/dud breeders. A revolution has begun. It's happening right here, right now. The thesis is being written and the manifesto is forming.

Dennis Voss
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:06 pm

Jbob, I didn't mean any disrespect to you or the bull. My point was in my post where I had a bull that was light years ahead of the pack in performance and yet in my herd his calves are just a tick over average on wwt and just under on yearling wt on the females and average for the bulls. It's quite interesting for me when cattle do this most importantly I'm glad they grow fast to weaning and slow up a bit because for selling calves in fall it's a good fit and yet the females don't grow to big.

I would guess with the story that this bulls pedigree tells I would think he would do the same.
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:30 pm

Dennis Voss wrote:
dunc wrote:
Great picture of your bull Dennis!

Mr. Dunc,

In the old paradigm I see your point, that this was a great photograph. Back then, this was the way. Now for me, it's ancient history. It represents "illusionistic bovine promotional aggrandizement". The Angus Journal exemplifies this ancient era. If you can be so kind, at your expense I've made this point since this is a reflective and futuristic view of cattle breeding from outside the registered mainstream. I am part of a new movement in the cattle industry to separate from the ancient history most bovine breeders are still in, including the so-called grass/pud/dud breeders. A revolution has begun. It's happening right here, right now. The thesis is being written and the manifesto is forming.

Dennis Voss
aww yes, so beautifully said...only when we get up on the butte and see the finished product, does seeing mean much...for how few can look at the egg, and see the eagle?
I take it you were moved and inspired by this private email quote as well...

As the genes wage their invisible battles from our selection, I decided I am not going to get involved in those visible battles going on with registered multipliers, public or private.
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:01 pm

A revolution has begun. It's happening right here, right now. The thesis is being written and the manifesto is forming.
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:07 pm

Dunc, I knew what you meant. It is going to be interesting to see how this all plays out in the end. After seeing him yesterday morning, I have an idea what might just happen in the next few months.

J.Bob Hould
Havre,Mt
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:35 pm

Dennis Voss wrote:
A revolution has begun. It's happening right here, right now. The thesis is being written and the manifesto is forming.

I have been re-reading the thesis ...and checking a few word meanings just to be sure...

Definition of MANIFESTO
: a written statement declaring publicly the intentions, motives, or views of its issuer

a primary point to contribute to the manifesto...

Nothing new, the history of the registered Angus breed has always been about trophys, awards, contests and self-acclamations unto itself which actually increases beef production costs. I have never figured out how boasting about how much their sales bring, listing their top sellers etc, helps the commercial producers improve their bottom line.

from The Thesis by LL...

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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:21 pm

MK, New way is documentation with out illusion. Animal must be photographed in its natural habitat, i.e. grazing, walking, drinking, bellering, running etc. LL's way. Nothing clipped, washed, posed with Burk leg back, head up,etc.
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jbob



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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:23 pm

I have a question about appetite in cattle. Once a bovine has reached his/her optimum weight, maybe not optimum but maximum. Do they still eat as heavily as they once did. I know this may be a stupid question, but I would like to know your thoughts. I know myself that if and when I have reached a weight that is beyond my frame capacity that I loose appetite greatly. pig Suspect What are your thoughts.

J.Bob Hould
Havre,Mt
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:07 am

MKeeney wrote:
R V wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
an own son of _whoever_____
...old memories of me doing things so wrong; chasing bull promotions whether AI to the bull himself, or buying sons...without thinking of distributions, or in the sons case, remembering they had mothers...and more distributions...
so now, just show me types, tell me if inbreeding has been practiced, and maybe, I`ll make fewer mistakes...certainly no reason to make more...
RV, have you ever thought it is kinda insulting to a breeder to imply that his best bulls were bred near 35 years ago?


I am sorry, but I had no intention of nor did I state that Viking was "the best bull." He is a bull that I think has been useful for other younger/lesser experienced breeders (including the master - LL). Larry is a breeding genius and that is why I am here trying to learn as much as I can. Unfortunately for me and other young breeders, his best bulls are probably being produced now, but none of them are available to a young breeder who wants to publicly register/paper cattle. This is not all bad as I would rather use older proven cattle for now as I still have a lot to learn and how to best use the cattle that I produce. At least I know some of the pro's and con's of the bull and certificates are still available on him. A tightly linebred bull should be more consistent, but I still need to get to know the cattle before I know how to best use them for my purposes. I know how I am planning on using Viking for now, but my plans did change after I talked to you and I am sure that if Larry discusses some of the pro's and con's of the bull, my plans may be further changed/improved. Just like my vision of the cows changed a little after Dennis talked about their feet and leg structure. I also know that Viking has been linebred successfully by several breeders, so hopefully, I will be able to do this successfully as well. I am also planning on more than one line of cattle to start with, but I am the most optimistic of the Shoshone/Viking line. Only time will tell if it will work, but I am trying to limit some of the variables and hopefully the learning curve is steep. Very Happy
Smile RV, I appreciate your thoughts and good nature...and when I probe at you a little, your reaction is always for your mind to go deeper, rather than your temperature to go higher. Some of the best discussions here have resulted from your willingness to discuss rather than promote. I don`t know much about Viking, but being availiable with papers should make him better... in folklore at least Smile

Another reason that I am going back to Viking is that he is already in the pedigrees of five of my favorite cows. These are the ones that I consider to be my foundational cows. If these cows flush well, I am planning on trying to flush them back to Viking. I am hoping that at least one of the two old cows (14 and 16) flushes well and I would like to use Viking on them first. The oldest cow has Viking in the pedigree 3 times already and I would really rather start with a proven Viking son on her, but I don't have that choice yet. If you have any ideas, please let me know. I also don't have much Viking semen, so this won't be an extensive experiment. Hopefully, I will make herd bulls that I can use back on the herd and particularly on this group. Then I hope to have a daughter or granddaughter to flush back to him again in a few years. If I am really fortunate, I will have sons and grandsons that will be worthy of breeding and flushing back to. I guess if I am very fortunate, there will be enough female progeny that I won't need to flush anymore. Very Happy Of course, I do my own ET work and I have worked diligently to be successful at it and I really hate to give ET up altogether. Question As a side note, late tonight and tomorrow we are apparently expecting the worst winter storm in 99 years!
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:41 am

jbob wrote:
I have a question about appetite in cattle. Once a bovine has reached his/her optimum weight, maybe not optimum but maximum. Do they still eat as heavily as they once did. I know this may be a stupid question, but I would like to know your thoughts. I know myself that if and when I have reached a weight that is beyond my frame capacity that I loose appetite greatly. pig Suspect What are your thoughts.

J.Bob Hould
Havre,Mt

Good for you and I don't know about cows, but with people it looks like a lot folks are a little different than you.
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:22 am

I don't think appetites shut off or moderate once You reach your optimum weight, whether you are a bovine or a man. Otherwise, most of us would have stopped eating so much when we were 19 or 20, and we wouldn't be the fat folk we are today.

For me, if I eat less than I ate pre- optimum weight, it's because I make myself do so. I do recall when my roommate in college and I regularly drank a gallon of milk every two days, along with great quantities of other college-appropriate beverages. I am certain I could drink my part of the milk today, but I refrain- delicious as whole milk is, it makes me fatter than I already am, it turns out. As for the other beverages, they make my head hurt a lot more, so I really couldn't do that now. I need much less beer to get by these days.

For my cows, i can't say I've ever noticed the fat ones hanging back from the groceries to let the skinny ones have the first chance.
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:53 am

Db. Don't get me wrong, I am still a fat bastard. I guess when I reach that weight I loose appetite but still loose nothing. After I thought about this question further I think I wrote it down wrong. I would like to know if once a bull gets there, does he keep consuming the same amount of feed or does he shut down on his food intake and that is why the conversion or adg goes down.

J.Bob Hould
Havre,Mt
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:21 am

R V if you like the Viking bull you might check out Connelly Angus at Valier MT. Viking shows up frequently in their cattle.

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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:43 am

I think the adg goes down because thet reach maturity and stop growing with any degree of efficiency. I dont know, but I'm not sure the appetite changes significantly. They just start making a bunch of fat instead of muscle,which i think is less efficient. In folks I know, the lack of efficiency in continued growth doesn't seem to help all that much.

I'm not sure if my appetite has decreased or not. I pretty much feel a little hungry all the time.

It would be interesting to identify cattle which had a great appetite for the first 15 months and then moderated significantly. If the differences between early and later appetite werepronounced enough,that'd be the holy Grail. But my hunch is that healthy cows will eat 2-3 % of their bodywt pretty much their whole life. If given the opportunity, they'll keep getting fatter and fatter.

Surely there are studies-- has anybody actually measured appetite in growing vs mature cattle? I'm sure it moderates some, but I'm just not sure there are actually any cattle that bend the curve better than others.
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:47 am

jbob wrote:
Db. Don't get me wrong, I am still a fat bastard. I guess when I reach that weight I loose appetite but still loose nothing. After I thought about this question further I think I wrote it down wrong. I would like to know if once a bull gets there, does he keep consuming the same amount of feed or does he shut down on his food intake and that is why the conversion or adg goes down.

J.Bob Hould
Havre,Mt

shouldnt he be out pushing others around instead of hanging out at the bunk? what worth is a good gainer if not intested in being a bull?

the fat boys in school were mellow, it was the lean and mean that got the girls.
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:24 am

Our Government and medical community recommend a low fat, high carb diet to control obesity.
We feed our cattle the same diet to make them fat(obese).
Why does no one question that logic?
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:37 am

I guess some people do question the logic. But I don't think ruminants and folks are all that similar. For one thing, they really can't do a lot with fat, while we can handle fat quite effectively.
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:02 pm

True, ruminants aren't the same as omnivores, but both seem to get fat on diets of vegetables (forage for ruminants) and grains. Don't know that I recall any fat carnivores?
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:26 pm

quote="RobertMac"]Our Government and medical community recommend a low fat, high carb diet to control obesity.We feed our cattle the same diet to make them fat(obese).
Why does no one question that logic?[/quote][/color]

Not anymore, but the promotion and commotion crowd may still recommend that diet. It has always been wrong, but was pushed by those who are anti-meat. Most of us recommend whole grains and some fruits as primary carb source with lots of vegetables and a protein source. My personal favorites are lean beef and fish. We also recommend adequate exercise - currently 30-40 minutes five or more times per week. Unfortunately, very few of us have the time to exercise and eat away from home too much. The more tired or stressed I get, the more I like simple carbs and fat. Recent studies show that I am not the only one. Also excessive short term weight loss is usually followed by compensatory gain + extra weight to "survive the next famine." We can limit what our cows can eat and their food choices, but not ourselves. I am no different and I need to lose more weight that I would like to admit to get to my "ideal" body - those charts are also flawed, but I am about to wear out my soap box. I could wear you out with more details, but I would rather search out those Viking bred cows that were mentioned by Angus 62.

(I recommend KISS with a greater percentage of vegetables, whole grains, fruits and lean meats + exercise when you can + 20 ounces of water first thing in the morning (Yes before coffee or food.) + eat breakfast within 60 minutes of waking up + avoid extremes. My personal experience with this simple approach is a better energy level, 2-4 notches less in my belt and ~5 lbs weight loss in 4years instead of the average 1.5 lbs of weight gain per year. Those who are more motivated will lose more, but sustained weight loss is usually best with no more than 10-15 lb weight loss per year and most of this with lifestyle change and not starvation.)
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:28 pm

RobertMac wrote:
True, ruminants aren't the same as omnivores, but both seem to get fat on diets of vegetables (forage for ruminants) and grains. Don't know that I recall any fat carnivores?


I don't recall any fat carnivores in the wild, but I have seen a lot fat dogs (pampered pets)!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:47 pm

larkota wrote:
jbob wrote:
Db. Don't get me wrong, I am still a fat bastard. I guess when I reach that weight I loose appetite but still loose nothing. After I thought about this question further I think I wrote it down wrong. I would like to know if once a bull gets there, does he keep consuming the same amount of feed or does he shut down on his food intake and that is why the conversion or adg goes down.

J.Bob Hould
Havre,Mt

shouldnt he be out pushing others around instead of hanging out at the bunk? what worth is a good gainer if not intested in being a bull?

the fat boys in school were mellow, it was the lean and mean that got the girls.

so true, so true..and why the best approach takes two....two types...crossed...Jack Spat and wife
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