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 Riddle me this

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jbob



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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:07 pm

Agreed, this bulls mother is a freak I guess, for a lack of better words. She is not small,little,short,or lacking any wieght. All I know is that under mine and Sam's conditions she will excel. I have tried the low input thing and you are right about low output. She is not low output,infertile,masculine or short necked. She is a freak in our program, so can I use this calf in my program because of that. LL has got me thinking now that I see that most all the bulls that have made an impact in HIS herd are way above average in WW %. As for his sire, he does work well here, and if only lined up once. I see no problem with low output.

J.Bob Hould
Havre,Mt
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:27 pm

jbob wrote:
Agreed, this bulls mother is a freak I guess, for a lack of better words. She is not small,little,short,or lacking any wieght. All I know is that under mine and Sam's conditions she will excel. I have tried the low input thing and you are right about low output. She is not low output,infertile,masculine or short necked. She is a freak in our program, so can I use this calf in my program because of that. LL has got me thinking now that I see that most all the bulls that have made an impact in HIS herd are way above average in WW %. As for his sire, he does work well here, and if only lined up once. I see no problem with low output.

J.Bob Hould
Havre,Mt
my comments were directed strictly in regard to your topside comment..." also a father who is known for nothing elso but good low input females."

my experience, like with every other bull I ever used, some are, some aren`t...
please explain further the "impact in HIS herd are way above average in WW %"..which bulls etc?

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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:42 pm

(1) Why are you "very certain that he will finish gaining any day now.". He's gaining over 4.5 lbs per day, and weighing over 1200 lb as a yearling. Do lots of cattle just do that, and then stop?

(2) I don't think Beauigan, Bob, and Encore were "way above average" in WW%.
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:35 pm

Didn't Shoshone Viking GD60 win at Midland? He still left a lot of good daughters and several of his sons (including programs other than Larry's) left a lot of "good" daughters. In fact, most of these breeders talk about how they should go back to "that kind of cow." This was important to me as breeders other than Larry were able to breed the type of cattle that I want. Larry is light years ahead of me in breeding and cattle knowledge and I expect him to breed excellent cows, but I have a lot to learn and it is encouraging to me that guys like me were able to use Viking and other Shoshone genetics successfully. (Some of them even linebred to Viking.) This is one of the reasons I went to visit Mike and watch his sale in 2009. Nobody talks about the Viking cows being too big and most of the "good ones" were a productive into their teens. Mike did relay some of his likes and dislikes regarding the bull. No bull is perfect, but he seems to do a lot well. Larry, were there other negatives to this bull that I don't know about. He seems to be in a lot of the Shoshone pedigrees. I don't see why JBobs bull couldn't do the same and the breeding philosophy that he is discussing appears to be similar to what Larry did use successfully. I know that only time will tell and "the proof is in the progeny."
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:39 pm

Dennis Voss wrote:
To whomever it matters to, or not. I took a shot at Midland a few times, failed miserably and felt like a fly that came in out of nowhere, hit a soft slather of butter on a piece of bread and died right there squirming in the warm greasy butter. The first one was a bull I called Mr North Dakota. I was going to win it all. I got that bull's gut all sucked up and shrunk down and whatever he weaned at, he was a lot less by the time he hit Midland. I got him down there 2 days before anybody else so he had the number 1 tag. As the other bulls started coming in, Mr North Dakota took them all on, one at a time. I was so into winning Midland that I pitched my little pup tent right in the middle of my bull's pen. Early in the morning Leo would be coming by with the feed truck, he'd always yell out, "Good morning Dennis. What do you need?" I'd say, "My bull wants more corn and for myself, eggs, bacon, toast & coffee". I love that place and I think the highest of Leo. After about a week of camping in the pen and bathing in the bull waterer, I headed home and just started corresponding with Leo on the phone. Sometimes I called him twice a day. I'd say, "How's my bull doing Leo?" Leo would say, "He's fighting all the rest of the bulls and he's got everybody whipped into shape and he's number one". This scenario repeated itself until I couldn't take it anymore and loaded him up and brought him home. This bull was a number fighter of other bulls, not a number one eater. As it turned out when I turned him out with cows, he was still a number one fighter of bulls. And I don't know if he ever bred a cow but he sure fought other bulls. I tried it a couple more times. Halfway through the test I sneaked them back out, took them home where the bulls and myself limped around like whipped dogs for a while. What did I learn? I learned to appreciate the concept of Midland for what it was. I made a friend in Leo that I'll always be very proud of. I have fond memories of the bulls I bought there and the bulls I tried to compete with there. I look at everything in this world through the eyes of someone who sees everything in conceptual terms. Everything is an idea for me.

I think the pickup in new readership may be creative writing professors instead of cattle people; given the talent we have here...but like a cattle breeder, never satisfied, I do hope we all get to see a new drawing before spring Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:44 pm

R V wrote:
Didn't Shoshone Viking GD60 win at Midland? He still left a lot of good daughters and several of his sons (including programs other than Larry's) left a lot of "good" daughters. In fact, most of these breeders talk about how they should go back to "that kind of cow." This was important to me as breeders other than Larry were able to breed the type of cattle that I want. Larry is light years ahead of me in breeding and cattle knowledge and I expect him to breed excellent cows, but I have a lot to learn and it is encouraging to me that guys like me were able to use Viking and other Shoshone genetics successfully. (Some of them even linebred to Viking.) This is one of the reasons I went to visit Mike and watch his sale in 2009. Nobody talks about the Viking cows being too big and most of the "good ones" were a productive into their teens. Mike did relay some of his likes and dislikes regarding the bull. No bull is perfect, but he seems to do a lot well. Larry, were there other negatives to this bull that I don't know about. He seems to be in a lot of the Shoshone pedigrees. I don't see why JBobs bull couldn't do the same and the breeding philosophy that he is discussing appears to be similar to what Larry did use successfully. I know that only time will tell and "the proof is in the progeny."
I think he only won the bidding contest, an outstanding gainer I`m sure, but we`ll be sure Larry sees this question...I was told by Larry many years ago, and I think it is pointed out in Reflections from LL, that the repeatability of the phenomenon of " heavy bulls/small dams" was slight in his experiences...
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:50 pm

Besides Viking-- How about Cole Creek Oscar 92R? I don't know if he was the high test bull- but he was the high seller at Midland in 85... And he definitely wasn't what I would call a numbers bull...
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:56 pm

Since my heifers run just across the hotwire fence from the coming yearling bulls, I`m putting more maternal faith in the poor gainers like Sniff the Wind; more interested in running the fence than standing at the feed trough...the best and the worst; just no getting away from it...
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:24 pm

I would also like to here some of the pro's and con's of Viking. We have granddaughters that are 12 years old and produceing well 1100 to 1300# cows. We also have another draft of Great grand daughters and sons from yearlings to 5 year old's. Now we have 3 sons and 1 daughter all coming yearlings. We are keeping two of the bulls for in herd use one is from a EXT granddaughter and the other is from a Hoff bred cow.The daughter is a Grand daughter of alberda traveler, GGD of 6807. The cows all have enough milk and very nice udders,heifer type udders at 10,11,12 years of age. Got some more GD60 semen in my tank around 20 straws left.I am looking for a direction to go with these cows . I'll most likely use my son's of GD60 back on these cows.Someone has to keep the papers up for the next generation who is 11 years old in this house.If he chooses to dump them thats his deal but I'll offer the opportunity. April 10th you guys can come buy yourselves an own son of GD60.

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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:33 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Since my heifers run just across the hotwire fence from the coming yearling bulls, I`m putting more maternal faith in the poor gainers like Sniff the Wind; more interested in running the fence than standing at the feed trough...the best and the worst; just no getting away from it...


I've got one of those an unwanted/sniff the wind. Knowone wanted him as a yearling so I put him with 16 cows in a small pasture he bred and settled 15 one never did breed and was culled. He then jumped the fence and spent most of the summer breeding in a 200 head commercial herd. We'd go rope him and take him back and a day later he'd be back in with the big bunch after 3 or 4 times I just left him as the owner is a good friend and he figured more the merrier. The 1st calves are a very even set throughout and by far our best sire group we have. He ran with 45 commercial cows for 20 days then with 35 reg.cows the rest of the breeding season last year.He quite a breeding machine should name him Get-her-done.
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:59 pm

double d wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Since my heifers run just across the hotwire fence from the coming yearling bulls, I`m putting more maternal faith in the poor gainers like Sniff the Wind; more interested in running the fence than standing at the feed trough...the best and the worst; just no getting away from it...


I've got one of those an unwanted/sniff the wind. Knowone wanted him as a yearling so I put him with 16 cows in a small pasture he bred and settled 15 one never did breed and was culled. He then jumped the fence and spent most of the summer breeding in a 200 head commercial herd. We'd go rope him and take him back and a day later he'd be back in with the big bunch after 3 or 4 times I just left him as the owner is a good friend and he figured more the merrier. The 1st calves are a very even set throughout and by far our best sire group we have. He ran with 45 commercial cows for 20 days then with 35 reg.cows the rest of the breeding season last year.He quite a breeding machine should name him Get-her-done.

I`d sure like to see a picture of him, to compare type etc...standing still Smile , if you ever get the chance Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:05 pm

MKeeney wrote:
double d wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Since my heifers run just across the hotwire fence from the coming yearling bulls, I`m putting more maternal faith in the poor gainers like Sniff the Wind; more interested in running the fence than standing at the feed trough...the best and the worst; just no getting away from it...


I've got one of those an unwanted/sniff the wind. Knowone wanted him as a yearling so I put him with 16 cows in a small pasture he bred and settled 15 one never did breed and was culled. He then jumped the fence and spent most of the summer breeding in a 200 head commercial herd. We'd go rope him and take him back and a day later he'd be back in with the big bunch after 3 or 4 times I just left him as the owner is a good friend and he figured more the merrier. The 1st calves are a very even set throughout and by far our best sire group we have. He ran with 45 commercial cows for 20 days then with 35 reg.cows the rest of the breeding season last year.He quite a breeding machine should name him Get-her-done.

I`d sure like to see a picture of him, to compare type etc...standing still Smile , if you ever get the chance Smile

Ok I can but give me a day or two.He spends his winter with the cowherd that way he's half ass content.
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:18 pm

double d wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
double d wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Since my heifers run just across the hotwire fence from the coming yearling bulls, I`m putting more maternal faith in the poor gainers like Sniff the Wind; more interested in running the fence than standing at the feed trough...the best and the worst; just no getting away from it...


I've got one of those an unwanted/sniff the wind. Knowone wanted him as a yearling so I put him with 16 cows in a small pasture he bred and settled 15 one never did breed and was culled. He then jumped the fence and spent most of the summer breeding in a 200 head commercial herd. We'd go rope him and take him back and a day later he'd be back in with the big bunch after 3 or 4 times I just left him as the owner is a good friend and he figured more the merrier. The 1st calves are a very even set throughout and by far our best sire group we have. He ran with 45 commercial cows for 20 days then with 35 reg.cows the rest of the breeding season last year.He quite a breeding machine should name him Get-her-done.

I`d sure like to see a picture of him, to compare type etc...standing still Smile , if you ever get the chance Smile

Ok I can but give me a day or two.He spends his winter with the cowherd that way he's half ass content.

good deal, I sure would appreciate it, and don`t worry about posing him or any negative comments...we`ll just delete`m Smile
I always admired the picture Dennis used on his catalogs...Viking I believe...
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:43 pm

double d wrote:
I would also like to here some of the pro's and con's of Viking. We have granddaughters that are 12 years old and produceing well 1100 to 1300# cows. We also have another draft of Great grand daughters and sons from yearlings to 5 year old's. Now we have 3 sons and 1 daughter all coming yearlings. We are keeping two of the bulls for in herd use one is from a EXT granddaughter and the other is from a Hoff bred cow.The daughter is a Grand daughter of alberda traveler, GGD of 6807. The cows all have enough milk and very nice udders,heifer type udders at 10,11,12 years of age. Got some more GD60 semen in my tank around 20 straws left.I am looking for a direction to go with these cows . I'll most likely use my son's of GD60 back on these cows.Someone has to keep the papers up for the next generation who is 11 years old in this house.If he chooses to dump them thats his deal but I'll offer the opportunity. April 10th you guys can come buy yourselves an own son of GD60.

[img][http://i76.servimg.com/u/f76/16/06/49/47/viking10.jpg[/img]

This is a son of Shoshone Viking GD60. Born in 2000, pictured as a 4 yr. old, weighing 2650. Moved like a cat, bred like hell. A perfect example of interbreed outcross on outcross on outcross on outcross on outcross - you get the point. Viking x Omaha Clint x Ext x 6807 x Rito Nugget x Pine Drive x PJM Powerpoint x Pattons Cash Register. Reg. #13775591.

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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:50 pm

[img][url=http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=9&u=16064947]

Above mentioned Viking son.
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:03 pm

Oldtimer, its going to snow Sat. through Sun. then get cold, we've seen this before,A?
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:26 pm

Dennis Voss wrote:
Oldtimer, its going to snow Sat. through Sun. then get cold, we've seen this before,A?

Yep-- going to get darn right chilly the way it sounds- and more snow Rolling Eyes
Predicting 25-30 Below or so for up here....
Snowing lightly here now...

Definitely testing both man and beast this year!!!
At least we had a 3 day break- where our temps got into the 30's- and we saw some sun..

I talked with an inlaw that lives near Big Timber and they had temps in the mid 50's today Shocked

Like Mike--I've always liked that picture of 0733- a very impressive looking bull....
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:03 am

The moons got a grin on it here at 6am, Oldtimer.
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:54 pm

Hell of a morning... We picked up another 3-4 inches of snow-- that blew into cement hard drifts...Grandma took off heading for Billings- and hit one of those that sucked her into the ditch a mile from the house...And that new Suburban is tough to pull out..... Rolling Eyes JD Front wheel assist was even spinning getting her out...
This morning was another one of those grey days you couldn't tell the road from the ditch or the ditch from the skyline...

Snow had drifted so tight I couldn't get out my corral side barn doors- so had to wade thru hip deep snow with a shovel to get to them ...Fell wading thru the snow- into a huge drift- and laid there for awhile blessing the snow best as I could... Finally got the doors shoveled open- but with all my distractions I forgot and ran the old bulls tank over....Finally got the young bulls penned off so I could take a bale into them so they're set for the cold spell- which is supposed to last til about Wed.....

And now I'm thinking of just pulling out a Jug of good Canadian Rye and hibernating for the rest of the day...

Snowing here again pretty good- and about 20 mph winds... Temp is dropping....Predicting we could get another 6-7" of snow before Monday....

Grandma called- and said once you get past the Little Rockies- the roads to Billings are clear....
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:21 pm

an own son of _whoever_____
...old memories of me doing things so wrong; chasing bull promotions whether AI to the bull himself, or buying sons...without thinking of distributions, or in the sons case, remembering they had mothers...and more distributions...
so now, just show me types, tell me if inbreeding has been practiced, and maybe, I`ll make fewer mistakes...certainly no reason to make more...
RV, have you ever thought it is kinda insulting to a breeder to imply that his best bulls were bred near 35 years ago?
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:58 pm

MKeeney wrote:
an own son of _whoever_____
...old memories of me doing things so wrong; chasing bull promotions whether AI to the bull himself, or buying sons...without thinking of distributions, or in the sons case, remembering they had mothers...and more distributions...
so now, just show me types, tell me if inbreeding has been practiced, and maybe, I`ll make fewer mistakes...certainly no reason to make more...
RV, have you ever thought it is kinda insulting to a breeder to imply that his best bulls were bred near 35 years ago?


I am sorry, but I had no intention of nor did I state that Viking was "the best bull." He is a bull that I think has been useful for other younger/lesser experienced breeders (including the master - LL). Larry is a breeding genius and that is why I am here trying to learn as much as I can. Unfortunately for me and other young breeders, his best bulls are probably being produced now, but none of them are available to a young breeder who wants to publicly register/paper cattle. This is not all bad as I would rather use older proven cattle for now as I still have a lot to learn and how to best use the cattle that I produce. At least I know some of the pro's and con's of the bull and certificates are still available on him. A tightly linebred bull should be more consistent, but I still need to get to know the cattle before I know how to best use them for my purposes. I know how I am planning on using Viking for now, but my plans did change after I talked to you and I am sure that if Larry discusses some of the pro's and con's of the bull, my plans may be further changed/improved. Just like my vision of the cows changed a little after Dennis talked about their feet and leg structure. I also know that Viking has been linebred successfully by several breeders, so hopefully, I will be able to do this successfully as well. I am also planning on more than one line of cattle to start with, but I am the most optimistic of the Shoshone/Viking line. Only time will tell if it will work, but I am trying to limit some of the variables and hopefully the learning curve is steep. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:23 am

R V wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
an own son of _whoever_____
...old memories of me doing things so wrong; chasing bull promotions whether AI to the bull himself, or buying sons...without thinking of distributions, or in the sons case, remembering they had mothers...and more distributions...
so now, just show me types, tell me if inbreeding has been practiced, and maybe, I`ll make fewer mistakes...certainly no reason to make more...
RV, have you ever thought it is kinda insulting to a breeder to imply that his best bulls were bred near 35 years ago?


I am sorry, but I had no intention of nor did I state that Viking was "the best bull." He is a bull that I think has been useful for other younger/lesser experienced breeders (including the master - LL). Larry is a breeding genius and that is why I am here trying to learn as much as I can. Unfortunately for me and other young breeders, his best bulls are probably being produced now, but none of them are available to a young breeder who wants to publicly register/paper cattle. This is not all bad as I would rather use older proven cattle for now as I still have a lot to learn and how to best use the cattle that I produce. At least I know some of the pro's and con's of the bull and certificates are still available on him. A tightly linebred bull should be more consistent, but I still need to get to know the cattle before I know how to best use them for my purposes. I know how I am planning on using Viking for now, but my plans did change after I talked to you and I am sure that if Larry discusses some of the pro's and con's of the bull, my plans may be further changed/improved. Just like my vision of the cows changed a little after Dennis talked about their feet and leg structure. I also know that Viking has been linebred successfully by several breeders, so hopefully, I will be able to do this successfully as well. I am also planning on more than one line of cattle to start with, but I am the most optimistic of the Shoshone/Viking line. Only time will tell if it will work, but I am trying to limit some of the variables and hopefully the learning curve is steep. Very Happy
Smile RV, I appreciate your thoughts and good nature...and when I probe at you a little, your reaction is always for your mind to go deeper, rather than your temperature to go higher. Some of the best discussions here have resulted from your willingness to discuss rather than promote. I don`t know much about Viking, but being availiable with papers should make him better... in folklore at least Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:20 am

Quote :
RV, have you ever thought it is kinda insulting to a breeder to imply that his best bulls were bred near 35 years ago?


How many "breeders" really have improved their bulls much in the last 35 years? How many "breeders" have have wandered from their breeding philosophy in the last 20 years or maybe even last 5?
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:31 am

Mark Day wrote:
Quote :
RV, have you ever thought it is kinda insulting to a breeder to imply that his best bulls were bred near 35 years ago?


How many "breeders" really have improved their bulls much in the last 35 years? How many "breeders" have have wandered from their breeding philosophy in the last 20 years or maybe even last 5?

Mark, there are many strayers, and very few stayers Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:49 am

The long held belief is that increasing production increases profit. Questionable logic even in the day of $1 diesel fuel and $1.80 corn. Reality is that production in most instances at the ranch [ie. weaning weights] have been flat for a long time. We have raised mature size and had a negative affect on ranch income but raise more beef with less cows [also a negative for ranchers].

The three largest expenses in most cattle operations are depreciation, feed costs, and labor. If you want to maximize all three, calf in the winter, harvest and haul feed for your cattle and haul manure away. The push to increase production and do it in the least efficient [and most expensive manner possible] are blueprints for the most highly recognized seedstock operations. Not far behind this folly is paying $4-$5K for a bull with a sub 400 pound weaning weight and a 700 pound yearling weight.
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