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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:17 am

more amusement...

so if 125 bulls all passing a semen check is indicative of "bred in" fertility, why are the sale{how many were the sale bulls chosen from?} bulls born over a 60 day period instead of 30? where`s the efficiency in cows weaning 55% of their body weight and then weighing 60% as a yearling? would our genetics do better treated the same way? nope, a good reason to not pay too much for theirs or ours...
 fescue dna is lame enough, but to continue to use the test for "stress" team is quite indicative of a con intent...
and no reason to be sorry to have missed the Cedar Ridge rage...

http://www.billpelton.com/sale_lots.php?saleid=882&saleClass=18+Mo.+Bulls&lotid=10722&start=2
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:53 am

Interesting endorsement in the sale book is the comment in regards to the quality of the fat open 2 year old heifers.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:11 am

MKeeney wrote:
Since it`s close on the route of next year`s Show Me Gathering, should we dare stop? would they dare have us?

http://circlearanch.com/commercial-angus/

By the time bulls hit the sale they have been vaccinated five times with respiratory and clostridial vaccines, had two rounds of protection against venereal disease and been wormed five times.

vaccinated and wormed five times is about better genetics?

http://circlearanch.com/bulls/

are these maternal tested bulls? most purchased from someone else? why ? I can`t believe Fluff even being considered...

http://circlearanch.com/semen-sales/

think about it...never quite know what an open mind might find? but first off, I see nothing eye opening other than the usual bs...still  Question  Question  Question  Question

Self-fulfilling prophesy. Most folks treat or manage animals for problems that they know that their animals have. Just like folks who go to extremes on calving ease bulls. They generally have an experience, a feeding regime or a base level of growth in their heifers which makes the heifers prone to calving problems. They won't say "My genetics are the problem" or "My heifers are too fat" or "We have selected for growth to the upper extreme" so they just praise the miracles of some breed or line of cattle that make them have less problems and chalk it up to wise thinking.

Same for overdoing vaccines and wormers. There is a trigger somewhere that made those bullets fly.

Example - Probably more upgrades to holding pens and purchases of better corral equipment in Angus circles back when EXT was hot to trot. Idea

Keep selecting for ugly bulls via terminal selection and AAA might start selling their own version of photo manager software to touch up pictures, ... or needs to.

Find another problem, find another cure. Can't find a problem and have a cure; create or promote a problem. Buy, sell, swap or trade - the business way.
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:59 am

Find another problem, find another cure. Can't find a problem and have a cure; create or promote a problem. Buy, sell, swap or trade - the business way.

That's what makes the purebred world go round.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:42 pm

Mean Spirit wrote:
Find another problem, find another cure. Can't find a problem and have a cure; create or promote a problem. Buy, sell, swap or trade - the business way.

That's what makes the purebred world go round.

good reading you again John...here`s a little patent case  surely the kind that keeps the legal world spinning...

http://www.kentucky.com/2015/11/02/4118538/meet-the-moonshine-distiller-tangled.html
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:11 pm

That's crazy Mike. UK owns the word "Kentucky" on t-shirts? I guess prolly not.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Sun Nov 08, 2015 7:26 am

MKeeney wrote:
you can get your dna genome tested Diamond D fescue performers in Montana if paying double for the bs helps you parlay the registered bs paper pyramid into more cash... but if commercial profit is your goal, you might just try these random pictured cattle raised on a 40 year old established 31 fescue sod at Dunkums for half the money and none of the bs...
 







If a picture of tru-line profitability is not adequate to replace a 1000 names, numbers, and words for your understanding, the only word I can
add to the 1000 is...Sorry

ok, so Joe got some numbers to add to the presentation; bull calves averaged 577...he was having difficulty deciding which one to keep for his own use...does that make the genetics the bulls represent worth more...or less?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:05 am

MKeeney wrote:
Since it`s close on the route of next year`s Show Me Gathering, should we dare stop? would they dare have us?

http://circlearanch.com/commercial-angus/

By the time bulls hit the sale they have been vaccinated five times with respiratory and clostridial vaccines, had two rounds of protection against venereal disease and been wormed five times.

vaccinated and wormed five times is about better genetics?

http://circlearanch.com/bulls/

are these maternal tested bulls? most purchased from someone else? why ? I can`t believe Fluff even being considered...

http://circlearanch.com/semen-sales/

think about it...never quite know what an open mind might find? but first off, I see nothing eye opening other than the usual bs...still  Question  Question  Question  Question

this guy seems willing to jump into the fray...I think he needs an invite for a presentation...

http://angusjournal.com/NCnTS/2015/documents/AUpp-2015-Jared-Decker.pdf
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:29 pm

Man alive - that is dangerous talk right there - imagine genomic sequencing on animals that are actually living and performing in a region, regardless of their parentage and how much money has been spent promoting their dam or sire, to train the panels rather than using samples from the cattle with the EPD's which "predict" that they will perform to train them - radical dangerous thinking - surely he did not get out alive?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:09 pm

pukerimu wrote:
Man alive - that is dangerous talk right there - imagine genomic sequencing on animals that are actually living and performing in a region, regardless of their parentage and how much money has been spent promoting their dam or sire, to train the panels rather than using samples from the cattle with the EPD's which "predict" that they will perform to train them - radical dangerous thinking - surely he did not get out alive?

the blind can go deaf at the first mention of common sense...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:19 am

MKeeney wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Since it`s close on the route of next year`s Show Me Gathering, should we dare stop? would they dare have us?

http://circlearanch.com/commercial-angus/

By the time bulls hit the sale they have been vaccinated five times with respiratory and clostridial vaccines, had two rounds of protection against venereal disease and been wormed five times.

vaccinated and wormed five times is about better genetics?

http://circlearanch.com/bulls/

are these maternal tested bulls? most purchased from someone else? why ? I can`t believe Fluff even being considered...

http://circlearanch.com/semen-sales/

think about it...never quite know what an open mind might find? but first off, I see nothing eye opening other than the usual bs...still  Question  Question  Question  Question

this guy seems willing to jump into the fray...I think he needs an invite for a presentation...

http://angusjournal.com/NCnTS/2015/documents/AUpp-2015-Jared-Decker.pdf

“He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion... Nor is it enough that he should hear the opinions of adversaries from his own teachers, presented as they state them, and accompanied by what they offer as refutations. He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them...he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.”
― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:03 pm

http://www.angusjournal.com/ArticlePDF/Helming-11.15.pdf

“He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion... Nor is it enough that he should hear the opinions of adversaries from his own teachers, presented as they state them, and accompanied by what they offer as refutations. He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them...he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.”
― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

does Helming know both sides? are just speculating from his side?
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:28 pm

MKeeney wrote:
http://www.angusjournal.com/ArticlePDF/Helming-11.15.pdf

“He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion... Nor is it enough that he should hear the opinions of adversaries from his own teachers, presented as they state them, and accompanied by what they offer as refutations. He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them...he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.”
― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

does Helming know both sides? are just speculating from his side?

another thread wrote:
seems a shame to steer; given the sorry state of many cows around here; but those who understand the need have
their own tru-line stock to choose and use...

Some of the same dilemma on these two: discussions of production without control or enhancement on the sale side of the equation. American farmers work hard to become overly productive so that they have plenty of product to sell if somebody comes along that wants it or it has to go at a commodity price. Helming postures for small cattle and in a dropping market he describes it would merely be a way to lose more money per calf with today's buyers. How do you change the buyers?

Even a tru-line breeder is considering the sales side to have "data" on calves for sale. Useless data? Maybe so to the production minded producer but the rats run the maze to get the cheese by smell. Humans have been trained to smell for data be it big talk, big names, papers, pounds, dates, numbers or whatever. If one can produce and sell without compromising the product then all is good in my little world.
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:05 pm

Hmmm ................. doom and gloom that is for sure - NZ's economy appears to be trucking along quite nicely and I guess with terror changing people's travel behaviour our tourism income is set to increase substantially - interesting that he is talking about grass and forage feed beef being only good for grinding ....................... while I agree personally that the high cost model that has evolved in the US from what was effectively political decisions and Stalin's attempts to destroy the US economy with a glut of grain is not sustainable in the 21st Century and appears from the outside looking in that is still totally dependent on political whim (ie corn growing rather than grass) - the idea that grass fed beef is only good for grinding flies in the face of the insatiable demand that our processors have for primal cut grass fed beef from all around the world.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:54 pm

the show-me heifer sales promoting putting more marbling in heifers to have more cattle grade prime...Ky {with tobacco money grant } copy catting the same with the AI companies the free-loading co-conspirers...
on the other side, the Helming hamburger nation ...
if your cow fits a practical forage environment, you can breed for whatever end product you wish simply by changing the terminal sires; not the entire cow herd...so here I am still stuck in the middle...with you or without you Smile
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:16 am

Re: small cows. I've got a friend who has every type of Charolais cattle in the world, mature weights ranging from 1300 to 2000 lbs, frame scores from mid 5 to 8 plus. All kinds of genetics. I've been trying to convince him to pick a type of cows, whatever type he wants. For some inexplicable reason, he has determined he wants to breed Charolais that are stout 1200 lb mature cows-- which sounds like a frame 4 something cow to me.

Assuming he can make his tribe of cows all frame 4 1200 lb cows, I can't imagine why this would be useful. If he wants that kind of cows, shouldn't he be selling his Charolais cattle and get some cattle of a breed that he actually likes? Any value to that kind of Charolais?
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:44 am

Mean Spirit wrote:
Re: small cows.  I've got a friend who has every type of Charolais cattle in the world, mature weights ranging from 1300 to 2000 lbs, frame scores from mid 5 to 8 plus. All kinds of genetics.  I've been trying to convince him to pick a type of cows, whatever type he wants.  For some inexplicable reason, he has determined he wants to breed Charolais that are stout 1200 lb mature cows-- which sounds like a frame 4 something cow to me.

Assuming he can make his tribe of cows all frame 4 1200 lb cows, I can't imagine why this would be useful.  If he wants that kind of cows, shouldn't he be selling his Charolais cattle and get some cattle of a breed that he actually likes?  Any value to that kind of Charolais?  

If they were Becton Charolais then the steers will finish big and quick while the cows stay average. How will Friend get 1200 pound cows when bottom limit now is 1300?
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:16 am

I don't know how he's going to do it. If I were going to do it in his cows, I'd get rid of at least the biggest half of his cows. I'd then find the smallest mature bull that met my needs and breed him, then breed the daughters back to the sire, or something like that. But before I did any of that, I'd write the plan down and tell it to my kids, since I'm pretty sure this is going to take a while. There are precious few mature Charolais cows that look like he imagines they'll look that weigh 1200 lbs. I'm not certain there are any.

Which is, of course, what the kids call "a thing"-- Charolais cows being at least a little bit bigger than maternal type cattle.

These Becton Charolais sound really good. Almost magical.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:31 pm

Mean Spirit wrote:
I don't know how he's going to do it.  If I were going to do it in his cows, I'd get rid of at least the biggest half of his cows.  I'd then find the smallest mature bull that met my needs and breed him, then breed the daughters back to the sire, or something like that.  But before I did any of that, I'd write the plan down and tell it to my kids, since I'm pretty sure this is going to take a while.  There are precious few mature Charolais cows that look like he imagines they'll look that weigh 1200 lbs.  I'm not certain there are any.  

Which is, of course, what the kids call "a thing"-- Charolais cows being at least a little bit bigger than maternal type cattle.

These Becton Charolais sound really good.  Almost magical.  

Maybe not a total bad idea. Get some smaller white cows, get fescue resistance testing on them, some gene testing on them, massage the EPDs by setting up the right contemporary groups and then breed to Angus bulls since Angus folks now want to be the Terminal Breed. Flip, Flop. Don't follow the herd is what I heard from the cow that fell off of the river bank.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:27 pm

EddieM wrote:
Mean Spirit wrote:
I don't know how he's going to do it.  If I were going to do it in his cows, I'd get rid of at least the biggest half of his cows.  I'd then find the smallest mature bull that met my needs and breed him, then breed the daughters back to the sire, or something like that.  But before I did any of that, I'd write the plan down and tell it to my kids, since I'm pretty sure this is going to take a while.  There are precious few mature Charolais cows that look like he imagines they'll look that weigh 1200 lbs.  I'm not certain there are any.  

Which is, of course, what the kids call "a thing"-- Charolais cows being at least a little bit bigger than maternal type cattle.

These Becton Charolais sound really good.  Almost magical.  

Maybe not a total bad idea.  Get some smaller white cows, get fescue resistance testing on them, some gene testing on them, massage the EPDs by setting up the right contemporary groups and then breed to Angus bulls since Angus folks now want to be the Terminal Breed.  Flip, Flop.  Don't follow the herd is what I heard from the cow that fell off of the river bank.

There is always the easy of way of shrinking the weight of the cows used by some of the grass/cover crop guru's. Just state they are 1200 lb cows regardless of what the cows weigh at any given point in life. They were 1200 pounds at one point in their life most likely. The only weigh I found to get an accurate cow weight is to weigh them.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:35 pm

Mean Spirit wrote:
Re: small cows.  I've got a friend who has every type of Charolais cattle in the world, mature weights ranging from 1300 to 2000 lbs, frame scores from mid 5 to 8 plus. All kinds of genetics.  I've been trying to convince him to pick a type of cows, whatever type he wants.  For some inexplicable reason, he has determined he wants to breed Charolais that are stout 1200 lb mature cows-- which sounds like a frame 4 something cow to me.

Assuming he can make his tribe of cows all frame 4 1200 lb cows, I can't imagine why this would be useful.  If he wants that kind of cows, shouldn't he be selling his Charolais cattle and get some cattle of a breed that he actually likes?  Any value to that kind of Charolais?  

I think this raises a general question...Are beef cattle characteristics, good and bad, more closely associated with breed or type {conformation, mature size, growth rate, birth weight etc} ?
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:19 pm

Wouldn't a type that fits an environment be a breed?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:41 am

RobertMac wrote:
Wouldn't a type that fits an environment be a breed?

if a cattle breed is a group of cattle that meets certain characteristic
standards, why not? and the closer the range of variation of all traits that the parents produce, the more pure the breed... being included in a breed registry to be denoted as a purebred is pretty much a joke given the current status of cattle breeds...
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:16 am

If 'type" means nature weight and frame score, I think a good argument can be made that many traits simply follow the type. Mature size and frame score are positively correlated with growth, ribeye area, cutability. Marbling is negatively correlated with all that stuff (though calling marbling a maternal trait seems intuitively wrong).

So a frame 7 plus Angus cow weighing 1600 lbs is terminal. My friend's 1200 lb frame 4.5 Charolais cow (should she ever exist) is a maternal animal. Right?

http://www.sites.ext.vt.edu/newsletter-archive/livestock/aps-01_11/aps-0426.html
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:01 am

Mean Spirit wrote:
If 'type" means nature weight and frame score, I think a good argument can be made that many traits simply follow the type.  Mature size and frame score are positively correlated with growth, ribeye area, cutability.  Marbling is negatively correlated with all that stuff (though calling marbling a maternal trait seems intuitively wrong).  

So a frame 7 plus angus cow weighing 1600 lbs is terminal.  My friend's 1200 lb frame 4.5 Charolais cow (should she ever exist) is a maternal animal.  Right?      

http://www.sites.ext.vt.edu/newsletter-archive/livestock/aps-01_11/aps-0426.html

that has been my experience and philosophy...if I had a 30 of these CHAR cross females, I wouldn`t be breeding them to the maternal bred sire of the calf at side here in this pic...



a black limmy or a GAR terminal come to mind as possibilities....yes, there would be plenty of heterosis using a GAR Angus; doubt the angus genes present in my cow picture have much in common with GAR...

How funny; or maybe how furious{depending on the day`s mood Smile } to read these terminal angus breeders fall back {the greatness of the angus cow} as if maternal was a fixed by-product entity of mating any two animals enrolled in the angus herdbook...
edit...I went back and de-capitalized Angus to angus...generics don`t deserve capitalization; only brands...
e.g. Tambocor™️ (flecainide acetate}
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