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MKeeney
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PostSubject: should we?    Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:16 pm

Since it`s close on the route of next year`s Show Me Gathering, should we dare stop? would they dare have us?

http://circlearanch.com/commercial-angus/

By the time bulls hit the sale they have been vaccinated five times with respiratory and clostridial vaccines, had two rounds of protection against venereal disease and been wormed five times.

vaccinated and wormed five times is about better genetics?

http://circlearanch.com/bulls/

are these maternal tested bulls? most purchased from someone else? why ? I can`t believe Fluff even being considered...

http://circlearanch.com/semen-sales/

think about it...never quite know what an open mind might find? but first off, I see nothing eye opening other than the usual bs...still Question Question Question Question
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:18 am

been there, did that

http://abs-bs.absglobal.com/beef/angus.asp?CodTouro=29AN1638

didn't like that I put the money in my pocket, thought I should spend it on making a name. thought I all ready had one. scratch
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:23 am

rather go to Branson and see an honest show, still both places want in my back pocket.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:11 am

who knows; might turn out like the Wulf visit...we breed, sell, you haul...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:50 am

so if the epd`s are "wrong" {meaning inflated for growth and milk}, then the resulting females from high epd bulls would not suffer from the lack of inputs fescue would provide for the nutritional needs of more growth and milk that do not exist?  

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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:59 am

How much faith do you have in people that can't spell simple words? Rolling Eyes
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Sat Oct 17, 2015 8:12 am

I guess it better go to the irrigated alfalfa pastures of Montana to find fescue tolerant cattle...Mark Deboo; another fescue expert...

FESCUE DNA MARKER TEST

The Fescue DNA Marker test developed by AgBotanica, LLC assesses the propensity for cattle to exhibit fescue toxicosis symptoms. Hair samples are submitted to AgBotanica, LLC and an analysis is performed for polymorphisms (Genes existing on the DNA) which indicate an animal's ability to tolerate fescue toxicosis. Research conducted at the University of Missouri shows that cattle with the genes to tolerate the toxic effects of endophyte-infected fescue perform significantly better, experience greater rates of gain, and have better breed back compared to cattle that are more susceptible to the toxic effects of endophyte-infected fescue. Since endophyte-infected fescue now exists on more than 35 million acres in the U.S., the ability to identify animals that are tolerant to the potential toxins produced by endophyte-infected fescue is important to overall profitability.  
AgBotanica uses a 5 star rating system to identify individual animal's ability to perform well on endophyte-infected fescue pastures. Individuals with a 4-Star or 5-Star rating are considered very tolerant to fescue toxicosis and should perform well when placed on fescue pasture. Correlated traits also show that animals that are 4-Star or 5-Star also perform well when grazing other forage species as well.


Diamond D Angus tested 123 Sale bulls. We had 99 bulls earn 4 or 5 stars. This is a very high percentage of the bulls selling test very well.


https://www.agbotanica.com/
https://www.agbotanica.com/fescue-toxicosis.aspx
•Campbell, B.T., C.J. Kojima, T.A. Cooper, B.C. Bastin, L. Wojakiewicz, R.L. Kallenbach, F.N. Schrick and J.C. Waller. 2014. A single nucleotide polymorphism in the dopamine receptor D2 gene may be informative for resistance to fescue toxicosis in Angus-based cattle. Animal Biotech. 25:1-12.

build a test; and a registered con game breeder will use it to create a sales advantage; the validity and accurate application of the test is of no consequence; only promotable results...
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Sat Oct 17, 2015 8:47 am

Just the facts, ma'am.
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:53 pm

I think we call Fescue, Rye grass and so is Fescue toxicosis Rye grass staggers? Big risk touting your cattle as being resistant to anything based on a newly established DNA marker test which "may be informative" for a resistance to something that can be deadly - recipe for disaster further down the track
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:13 am

Fescue and rye two different grasses...fescue toxicity creates a restriction of blood flow to the extremities ...how can you select for resistance without having the fescue grass? you don`t; you just run a dna test...
if you use fescue, you automatically select for cattle that function in it...the greatest beneficiary of a dna test for fescue tolerance would be the creators of the dna test....sound familiar?
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:03 am

Aha - thanks for that - that tune is getting old, but never seems to go out of fashion with those that don't, to tell the folk who do, how to.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:09 am

Googled your rye grass staggers and it appears to have some similarities to the fescue problem. Similar cause - different effect maybe?

http://www.vetent.co.nz/sheep-beef-deer-disease-management/ryegrass-staggers.html
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:07 am

MKeeney wrote:
Fescue and rye two different grasses...fescue toxicity creates a restriction of blood flow to the extremities ...how can you select for resistance without having the fescue grass? you don`t; you just run a dna test...
if you use fescue, you automatically select for cattle that function in it...the greatest beneficiary of a dna test for fescue tolerance would be the creators of the dna test....sound familiar?

To paraphrase a borrowed term...

"All cattle breeding is local."

Hate to be a pita, but at one time I was an agronomist...

Fescue is different than rye (which is a grain).
Rye is different than ryegrass.
Annual ryegrass is different than perennial ryegrass (which is what Megan probably has, with characteristics, probably, similar to fescue...except better!)

GF, can you grow perennial ryegrass up there?
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:07 pm

No, perennial ryegrass won't over winter up here. I have a heck of a stand of annual (Italian) ryegrass along with sweet clover growing at the moment. Surprising after a few nights of frost it hasn't killed yet. We used both perennial and annual ryegrass in Scotland - perennial ryegrass was the main pasture grass component.
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76 Bar



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:11 pm

The consequences i.e. morbidity and mortality rates of Perennial Rye Grass staggers versus Annual Rye grass staggers are decidedly not the same. The former is relatively benign, the latter is often deadly. Paspalum Staggers is similar to the former and sometimes confused with PRGS.
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Sun Oct 18, 2015 5:08 pm

Got a lecture on my ignorance about fescue vs rye grass from the boss who is in charge of all things pasture and fertiliser (I just write the cheques and do as I am told in this field). Salient points from lecture .......Fescue is considered "just a grass" in NZ and while present in many pastures, apart from the specially sown varieties, is not highly desirable - for instance glancing at a seed merchants catalogue there are 11 species of rye grass (both annual and perennial) and 1 of fescue which is touted as drought resistant as it's main claim to fame. Our repasturing programme consists of both annual (when in a pasture improving phase, usually before and after the paddock has been cropped) and then onto a perennial with clover. We are using a hybrid perennial rye which has been bred to be resistant to both porina caterpillar and grass grub which are endemic on this property (I believe the resistance is in the form of endophytes) and we have discovered are probably the reason for the dreadful pastures which were on the beautifully cultivatable land when we took ownership - all the good grass had been eaten by the bugs leaving the native unpalatable (to both bug and beast) species. The "bug proof" perennial is proving to be a little disappointing for the cost as it does not persist for as long as we would like and it's best quality is more like an annual - probably due to the cooler climate at our altitude. We spray the porina (grazers) with a helicopter annually (cost around $17 - $25k a year dependent on area) but since the ban on the use of DDT (for very good reasons) there is little in the arsenal to combat grass grub (root feeders).

My big horse died of staggers / colic a couple of years ago - not sure what was the cause and what was the effect - by time I discovered him (long enough for the vet to come out and then return to town as she did not have the drugs to put him down ..... he died as she was coming back up the driveway) both symptoms were being exhibited in equal measure. As a rule we do not lose many stock to staggers but there has been the occasion when all other causes are unlikely and it is about the right time of the year when an animal is discovered dead.

The regrassing programme on this property is constant - we crop and then return to an improved pasture at least three paddocks every year - the crops are usually grazable by lambs in the late summer and then grown back to break feed young cattle on in winter. A particular kale variety is the best for this. This year the boss is really pushing out the boat and we are planting a big area in an improved plantain as well as our usual cropping rotation - there are parts on the farm that we cannot cultivate, the steep hills obviously, but also where the area is not deer fenced - the population of red deer is exploding in the ranges behind us and an unprotected crop would just be an all out buffet invitation - not only do they eat most of it but they stampede the stock through any carefully erected electric fences too - a whole crop could be wasted in a single night - if it was ever allowed to grow to maturity that is.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Sun Oct 18, 2015 6:03 pm

Interesting that you have these bug challenges in NZ. We didn't have anything comparable in Scotland. There the only reason to reseed was due to poor grazing management or removal of too much material in the form of silage. We had a reseeding system similar to yours on the best land - the stuff we could silage. The pasture land could all be sustained in perpetuity with proper management - we had some outstanding fattening pastures of clover/ryegrass that were 40 years old and just got better each year. We did add phosphate and ground magnesium lime to counteract severe acidity.
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Sun Oct 18, 2015 6:24 pm

The Porina moth is a native species that just loves Rye, clover etc - the Kiwi bird would have evolved to hunt it (amongst other grubs) as the grub is nocturnal - man has upset the balance of nature sadly - the Porina moth scatters literally thousands of eggs each in late summer when there is rank long grass (the larvae likes the damp) unless you make silage or graze the grass at just the right time the larvae migrate to the ground, dig a hole with cast very like worm cast but drier consistency and with a fine thread apparent and come out at night to graze - they eat the grass at ground level so sometimes it will look like standing rank but if you pull, it comes away in your hands.  The real damage is not apparent until the dead grass has decayed and bare earth is all that is left - if they have not pupated by the time the spring grass is growing they are nipping it off as it grows.  Not uncommon to see whole bare hill sides where someone has not sprayed.  They like free draining soils so we had not had any experience with them coming from heavy clay country to this property - it was a lesson not happily learnt the first year as our ewes competed with them.

Like everything - single trait selection evolves problems - NZ was turned from a bush covered bird paradise into a great big grass paddock and pests evolved to make full use of the grass.  The native birds are either nectar and fruit eaters or ground dwelling grub eaters - of course possums, rats, cats, stoats and dogs (all introduced - the stoats to try and stem the rabbit epidemic ................ hmmm why catch a rabbit when there is a fine fat bird that looks at you while you devour it) find them easy picking so really they only succeed in specially predator proofed reserves.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:44 am

Quote :
Hate to be a pita, but at one time I was an agronomist...

I have never been an agronomist but I have played one on an internet chat site or two.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Mon Oct 19, 2015 11:35 am

You are spoiling the picture of "green, all natural" New Zealand pukerimu when you tell us of all the arial chemical spraying and fertilizing that goes on. Wink
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:01 pm

Haha - sad but true - I think in the green stakes we are more than most. I imagine if there were not helicopters or planes to do the spraying then the hillsides would be bare and slipped to the bottom of the gully now so it is the lesser of two evils. Hate the idea of spraying for porina but hate the look of starving sheep even more - sadly the bugs just do not share.
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outsidethebox



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:06 am

Before this thread gets lost: The answer to the original question is, "Yes we should!" Smile
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:40 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Since it`s close on the route of next year`s Show Me Gathering, should we dare stop? would they dare have us?

http://circlearanch.com/commercial-angus/

By the time bulls hit the sale they have been vaccinated five times with respiratory and clostridial vaccines, had two rounds of protection against venereal disease and been wormed five times.

vaccinated and wormed five times is about better genetics?

http://circlearanch.com/bulls/

are these maternal tested bulls? most purchased from someone else? why ? I can`t believe Fluff even being considered...

http://circlearanch.com/semen-sales/

think about it...never quite know what an open mind might find? but first off, I see nothing eye opening other than the usual bs...still  Question  Question  Question  Question

nahhh Warren, at worst, seems almost a treasonable offense; consorting with the competition Smile at best, spying on the competition... Rolling Eyes

I`d rather just stay away; apply common sense experience and reach my conclusion from afar...

“What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.” Hitchens
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outsidethebox



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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:44 pm

MKeeney wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Since it`s close on the route of next year`s Show Me Gathering, should we dare stop? would they dare have us?

http://circlearanch.com/commercial-angus/

By the time bulls hit the sale they have been vaccinated five times with respiratory and clostridial vaccines, had two rounds of protection against venereal disease and been wormed five times.

vaccinated and wormed five times is about better genetics?

http://circlearanch.com/bulls/

are these maternal tested bulls? most purchased from someone else? why ? I can`t believe Fluff even being considered...

http://circlearanch.com/semen-sales/

think about it...never quite know what an open mind might find? but first off, I see nothing eye opening other than the usual bs...still  Question  Question  Question  Question

nahhh Warren, at worst, seems almost a treasonable offense; consorting with the competition Smile at best, spying on the competition... Rolling Eyes

I`d rather just stay away; apply common sense experience and reach my conclusion from afar...

“What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.” Hitchens

Oh come on, Mike. Surely there would be great entertainment value here...absolutely no consorting required. They wouldn't know what to do with a hostile crowd.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: should we?    Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:31 pm

you can get your dna genome tested Diamond D fescue performers in Montana if paying double for the bs helps you parlay the registered bs paper pyramid into more cash... but if commercial profit is your goal, you might just try these random pictured cattle raised on a 40 year old established 31 fescue sod at Dunkums for half the money and none of the bs...
 







If a picture of tru-line profitability is not adequate to replace a 1000 names, numbers, and words for your understanding, the only word I can
add to the 1000 is...Sorry
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