Keeney`s Corner

A current and reflective discussion of cattle breeding from outside the registered mainstream
 
HomeUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Riddle me this

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
AuthorMessage
jbob



Posts : 23
Join date : 2010-10-08

PostSubject: Riddle me this   Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:29 pm

This fall I consigned a bull calf to midland bull test. THis calf has been a standout since day one of his life. I know that is of sort of a cliche, but he really has been. Born to one of my donor cows @ 80# and born a bit earlier than the rest of his calf mates 12/31/09. He was weaned fairly early in life because I felt sorry for his mother. She was nursing a calf that would likely drain her down to nothing and I did not want him breeding my heifer calves. During AI season I had to seperate him from my other cows for that reason. He would just chase cows all over the pasture, screaming and making a spectical of himself. He was weighted at the end of June and to my amazement he wieghted 854# and the mother was 1280#. She is a fantastic cow with a great udder and has always brought in a big calf, just not this big. Her EPD's are what you would expect from a average cow in my herd. Nothing great at all, just numbers. She is not tightly linebeed, but does have a couple of bulls in common right up front in her ped. The sire of this calf is certainly not known for any explosive growth and darn sure not on my place and under my management. I have had great luck with this sire and have had some outstanding females sired by him. After I weaned him, he stuck around the corrals and ate the weeds and grass that where available. Really at no time did I expect to take him to midland or anywhere for that matter. My kids where talking about midland one day around the first part of October and asked why I did not put any more bulls at midland. I explained to them that our cows are much different than those that are taken to midland. They all know that when we take our animals to the 4H sale and show, that they are always much smaller and lighter than anything else there. So it made it very easy for me to explain why midland was not really an option for us any longer. But that got me to thinking, so on the friday of the nile week we loaded him up and headed south. My kids where very happy because I think they know now that on sale day they will be in Columbus and not in school.

A couple of weeks ago I recieved the midland test results for this weight period and about tipped over. That little bull calf is sitting 2nd for gain amongst all those bulls. I really am riddled by this and maybe somebody can explain to me how this is happening. I am very proud of this of coarse, but I also know that he can't keep up this pace. He is not genetically programed to keep up with this group of bulls who are genetically programed to do exactly this. It will not surprise me at all if he drops out of the pack and sits at average at the end. I have put a bit of thought into this calf and how well he has done though. Is it not exactly what we want to see a animal do? He weaned off the cow big, went on to grass and grew some frame and put into the feedlot and gained bigtime. Now if he does shut off at 1300# this next weight period and just sits there I will even be prouder. I would expect (hope) that he would produce offspring that would do much the same. Let me know what you think.

AAA #16827748
Lot # 1 at Midland


J.Bob Hould

Average cows with a above average ability to survive.

Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:22 pm

jbob wrote:
This fall I consigned a bull calf to midland bull test. THis calf has been a standout since day one of his life. I know that is of sort of a cliche, but he really has been. Born to one of my donor cows @ 80# and born a bit earlier than the rest of his calf mates 12/31/09. He was weaned fairly early in life because I felt sorry for his mother. She was nursing a calf that would likely drain her down to nothing and I did not want him breeding my heifer calves. During AI season I had to seperate him from my other cows for that reason. He would just chase cows all over the pasture, screaming and making a spectical of himself. He was weighted at the end of June and to my amazement he wieghted 854# and the mother was 1280#. She is a fantastic cow with a great udder and has always brought in a big calf, just not this big. Her EPD's are what you would expect from a average cow in my herd. Nothing great at all, just numbers. She is not tightly linebeed, but does have a couple of bulls in common right up front in her ped. The sire of this calf is certainly not known for any explosive growth and darn sure not on my place and under my management. I have had great luck with this sire and have had some outstanding females sired by him. After I weaned him, he stuck around the corrals and ate the weeds and grass that where available. Really at no time did I expect to take him to midland or anywhere for that matter. My kids where talking about midland one day around the first part of October and asked why I did not put any more bulls at midland. I explained to them that our cows are much different than those that are taken to midland. They all know that when we take our animals to the 4H sale and show, that they are always much smaller and lighter than anything else there. So it made it very easy for me to explain why midland was not really an option for us any longer. But that got me to thinking, so on the friday of the nile week we loaded him up and headed south. My kids where very happy because I think they know now that on sale day they will be in Columbus and not in school.

A couple of weeks ago I recieved the midland test results for this weight period and about tipped over. That little bull calf is sitting 2nd for gain amongst all those bulls. I really am riddled by this and maybe somebody can explain to me how this is happening. I am very proud of this of coarse, but I also know that he can't keep up this pace. He is not genetically programed to keep up with this group of bulls who are genetically programed to do exactly this. It will not surprise me at all if he drops out of the pack and sits at average at the end. I have put a bit of thought into this calf and how well he has done though. Is it not exactly what we want to see a animal do? He weaned off the cow big, went on to grass and grew some frame and put into the feedlot and gained bigtime. Now if he does shut off at 1300# this next weight period and just sits there I will even be prouder. I would expect (hope) that he would produce offspring that would do much the same. Let me know what you think.

AAA #16827748
Lot # 1 at Midland


J.Bob Hould

Average cows with a above average ability to survive.

No matter if he continues the pace or not; there`s no riddle to it. The most plausible answer is he is on one end of the variation nature always hands us, and how we change cattle through selection for better and worse; better and worse defined by the criteria on which change you place value on...but rest assured, both changes occur in relative degrees.
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
jbob



Posts : 23
Join date : 2010-10-08

PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:55 pm

Mike, I realize that he is on the one end of the spectrum. But I am curious how much further can he take it. It will be a interesting experiment that I may never again have the chance to experience.

J.Bob Hould

Average cattle with an above average ability to survive.
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:31 pm

jbob wrote:
Mike, I realize that he is on the one end of the spectrum. But I am curious how much further can he take it. It will be a interesting experiment that I may never again have the chance to experience.

J.Bob Hould

Average cattle with an above average ability to survive.

yelp, more fun when they are doing good; it is a contest after all......the only thing that matters long term is can
he take it all the way to breeding value...
Larry has recalled his Midland successes , both winning the gain and the money contests....was there any long term genetic benefit? yes, in some directions ; offset negatively in other directions...
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
jbob



Posts : 23
Join date : 2010-10-08

PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:12 pm

Really not in it for the win. It is just nice to see that if fed more than I do, that they can still perform well. Without a doubt it is nice to see that these epd challenged cattle can perform well under these conditions. Do the numbers ever lie?

J.Bob Hould

Average cattle with an above average ability to survive.

Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:34 pm

I wish you success, J. Bob, hope he does you proud.

Do the numbers ever lie? you ask.

I will just relay a little story, from oh, about 1990. The reason I am skeptical, or do not put much faith, or worship the numbers, would have its foundations laid in this time frame. My Dad, was big into the performance tested bull sales, and was pretty good at it. He took dang good care of them, well too good for my taste, but he could get them to weigh as much back then, as ANYBODY does now. This particular set of bulls would have been out of a 40 to 50lb yearling Epd sires. The top end weighed off at weaning over 800 lbs, with one being in the mid-900's and another not far behind. I would put the sires of those bulls against the majority of the high growth, plus100 yw, cattle of today, and I am pretty sure the old ones would win. That being said, I am really not all that interested in what the new ones or old ones would give me today.


This is why type to type, interests me, because, saying a bull is plus 40 for yw, while may be accurate, just leaves too many contradictions in my twisted head. Maybe the old ones were not pure, and hybrid vigour kicked in, who is to say but I have a plus 100 yw bull standing next to a Shoshone bred bull, and since 14 months, they have been nearly the same size, of course it is only sixty pounds difference, so does it really matter.

Back to top Go down
Kent Powell



Posts : 606
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:57 pm

Be proud J. Bob and enjoy it. You might be surprised how he does.

I delivered a pen of fall bulls to the Panhandle State bull test in 1991. One son of old Traveler and rest of the pen was made up of CH Stacker 7040 sons. I just knew I didn't have a chance. My bulls were quite a bit smaller than the spring Simmental, Angus, and Charolais bulls in both frame and weight. P Traveler 093 Reg: AAA 11594915 (Q A S Traveler 23-4 X Shoshone Intent KGEA27 X Schearbrook Shoshone X Junada Goldmere of G J H) with a +40 Yearling was the top bull. He won the test gaining 5.14, if I remember correctly. Nearly a record at the time. This was in an era when Grubbs Mac KenzieReg: AAA #+10905374- and the like type were popular.

I creep fed calves in 1995. My 516 bull weaned at 848 pounds. He seldom left the feeder and waited for his dam to come to him to nurse. He was purchased in Dam from the Jorgensen sale. I hoped his BW was environmental from his sale conditioned dam, so I decided to keep and use him. No calving problems, but they were big at birth and grew like nothing I have ever seen, just like him. I took a pen of his sons ( Powell Eldorado 3426 516 Reg: AAA 12325685) to Midland. One was the #2 gainer at the second to last weigh in. The whole pen did well, but no cigar in the end.

Back to top Go down
http://powellangus.com
Mean Spirit



Posts : 321
Join date : 2010-09-26

PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:56 am

Congratulations on the bull. Sounds like a nice one. But I would think that the fact that he is outperforming his genetics so dramatically might suggest that his actual genetics ain't what we think they are.

If he keeps going, he might be the emblazon son that mr. Burke has been waiting for! I hope he is so you can make a bunch of money.
Back to top Go down
Kent Powell



Posts : 606
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:15 pm

He has a pedigree full of bull test winners, and he grew well through weaning. It is not surprising.
Back to top Go down
http://powellangus.com
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:37 pm

jbob wrote:
This fall I consigned a bull calf to midland bull test. THis calf has been a standout since day one of his life. I know that is of sort of a cliche, but he really has been. Born to one of my donor cows @ 80# and born a bit earlier than the rest of his calf mates 12/31/09. He was weaned fairly early in life because I felt sorry for his mother. She was nursing a calf that would likely drain her down to nothing and I did not want him breeding my heifer calves. During AI season I had to seperate him from my other cows for that reason. He would just chase cows all over the pasture, screaming and making a spectical of himself. He was weighted at the end of June and to my amazement he wieghted 854# and the mother was 1280#. She is a fantastic cow with a great udder and has always brought in a big calf, just not this big. Her EPD's are what you would expect from a average cow in my herd. Nothing great at all, just numbers. She is not tightly linebeed, but does have a couple of bulls in common right up front in her ped. The sire of this calf is certainly not known for any explosive growth and darn sure not on my place and under my management. I have had great luck with this sire and have had some outstanding females sired by him. After I weaned him, he stuck around the corrals and ate the weeds and grass that where available. Really at no time did I expect to take him to midland or anywhere for that matter. My kids where talking about midland one day around the first part of October and asked why I did not put any more bulls at midland. I explained to them that our cows are much different than those that are taken to midland. They all know that when we take our animals to the 4H sale and show, that they are always much smaller and lighter than anything else there. So it made it very easy for me to explain why midland was not really an option for us any longer. But that got me to thinking, so on the friday of the nile week we loaded him up and headed south. My kids where very happy because I think they know now that on sale day they will be in Columbus and not in school.

A couple of weeks ago I recieved the midland test results for this weight period and about tipped over. That little bull calf is sitting 2nd for gain amongst all those bulls. I really am riddled by this and maybe somebody can explain to me how this is happening. I am very proud of this of coarse, but I also know that he can't keep up this pace. He is not genetically programed to keep up with this group of bulls who are genetically programed to do exactly this. It will not surprise me at all if he drops out of the pack and sits at average at the end. I have put a bit of thought into this calf and how well he has done though. Is it not exactly what we want to see a animal do? He weaned off the cow big, went on to grass and grew some frame and put into the feedlot and gained bigtime. Now if he does shut off at 1300# this next weight period and just sits there I will even be prouder. I would expect (hope) that he would produce offspring that would do much the same. Let me know what you think.

AAA #16827748
Lot # 1 at Midland


J.Bob Hould

Average cows with a above average ability to survive.


Makes a nice ad J Bob. You forgot to put the sale date in though. Might want to change that over at 5barX too.
Back to top Go down
jbob



Posts : 23
Join date : 2010-10-08

PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:48 pm

Naa, do not need to put in the date. Most people already now it. When I was writing this story down I figured that there was going to be a certain % of people that will find it an interesting story and others will find a way to put a negetive spin on it. I guess I was right. I am more interested in hearing about what and why than defending it.

J.Bob Hould

Average cows with an above average abiblity to survive.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:18 pm

Jack, Kinda how the cluck hen does it over at the 4point9barY ranch. Spin a little, bait a bit, scratch your ass like you don't know what any bodies talkin about, kick the dirt a little, say ahh,then say oh,
Back to top Go down
jbob



Posts : 23
Join date : 2010-10-08

PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:35 pm

I know just like the jackwagon over at the 2-barQrt circle ranch. Circle around raising dust, spitting on the floor, kicking open the doors, and bedding down the whores, than goes to church because he has finally seen the light. And tells the preacher it wasn't me.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:30 am

Rex Riddle, from the 4point9 barY Ranch, he has a calf called" Lucys Lunker" on feed at Treasure, he's out of "Burks Big Boy" and his dam is a power cow out of"More Corn Jason" who was out of the winner of the hot dog eating contest at the Alternative Feeds Bull test in Ingomar, Montana. That was the year, wow, what bull pen fight out, anyhow, tough up J Bob, laugh a little, cry a little, bunt heads a little this deals just a bull pen with Mr. KC trying to keep us all thinking about a reflective and futuristic view of cattle breeding from outside the registered mainstream. A very worthy cause in this day and age of cattle breeding, compared to the old ruts everyone gets stuck in.
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:10 am

It doesn`t take much reflection on the past to realize that a bull doing well in a test station doesn`t amount to anything more than the same ole, same ole BS promotion...Larry`s examples showed us that along with the best of things, came the worse of things. Bull test stations are relics of the past; and a trivia questions source in the future...or maybe right now, what bull test winner of the last ten years has even been mentioned in promotions; let alone becoming a credible sire?
For those into records and comparisons kinda things, the bull`s record when left with his comtemporary group at home has more validity...one of the fastest ways to make early growth and test station records is to change the birthdate 60 days.
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
jbob



Posts : 23
Join date : 2010-10-08

PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:38 am

Dennis I am not afraid that I am in a rut. The one thing that I do enjoy about this open forum in that it gets me thinking out side of the box. It was very enjoyable having all the debate that would rise up with everyones different ideas.

Mike I never put this calf at midland to play the game. Who in there right mind would believe that a calf sired by OCC Emblazon would go and gain enough to compete with the smoke and mirrors bulls of the modern. He was born all of 60 days earlier than the rest of the pack here. And I guess nobody here said a word about that. Because of that birthdate he has to be ratioed by himself and it will not be a fair comparision against others here. Quite frankly he would have a freaky high ratio that would put him way out there. The one thing I did notice about the LL messages is that he did use bulls that are higher in ww ratios. I am a little confused about that, I mean the way I think is that is you keep on pulling from the top. Sooner or later you will start getting a larger and more productive animal. At some point you would have to start pulling frome the middle so your cow herd does not get to big. You are right about the test station winners of the past. Again, he will not be a test station winner,but the point I was trying to make is that he is doing exactly what he should be doing. He weaned off big and went to feed and gained very well. I would hope that he shuts down and if he does do that. Is that not what he is suppose to do. I know that is very simple thinking, of coarse that is what he is suppose to do?

J.Bob Hould
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:46 am

It is said we can change the growth curve...I haven`t; the benefit of those who have, if they have, is vastly oversold in my opinion... I come from the "let it be" school of thought...
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Mean Spirit



Posts : 321
Join date : 2010-09-26

PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:13 am

I bet hes a nice bull, and will bring a good price if he keeps it up. But honestly, outside the world of exalting names on a pedigree, I don't see why a person who enjoyed emblazon-type cattle would be interested in this bull.
Back to top Go down
OAK LANE FARM



Posts : 95
Join date : 2010-09-25

PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:14 am

One has to no more that drive down the feed lane at Midland to know that the one thing test stations and the use of the winners has given us is pens full of the winners. Like begets like and old Bakewell is right again. Gain races are not a whole lot more valuable than beauty contests when you think about it.
Back to top Go down
RobertMac



Posts : 377
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:55 am

You are right J Bob, your calf is doing exactly what most all on this forum want their calves to do...grow fast and grow big. That is exactly what the feedlot wants...they eat more corn and are turned over sooner. That is exactly what the packer wants...more sellable product per hammer blow and cut of the knife. Who loses??? The cow/calf producer that has to pay the maintenance cost of the herd mates that become cows. Where has the push for maximum production and squeezing out every ounce of production with every economically feasible input got us? The smallest herd and calf crop in ~50 years producing the same amount of beef(or at least enough to fill a stagnant demand) which equates to a dwindling number of producers.

I better get off my soapbox now, but will say that the industry is different when you're a player from one end to the other, rather than being a link in the chain.
Back to top Go down
Kent Powell



Posts : 606
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:02 am

Type on the Hook rather than type on the Hoof?
Back to top Go down
http://powellangus.com
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:49 pm

To whomever it matters to, or not. I took a shot at Midland a few times, failed miserably and felt like a fly that came in out of nowhere, hit a soft slather of butter on a piece of bread and died right there squirming in the warm greasy butter. The first one was a bull I called Mr North Dakota. I was going to win it all. I got that bull's gut all sucked up and shrunk down and whatever he weaned at, he was a lot less by the time he hit Midland. I got him down there 2 days before anybody else so he had the number 1 tag. As the other bulls started coming in, Mr North Dakota took them all on, one at a time. I was so into winning Midland that I pitched my little pup tent right in the middle of my bull's pen. Early in the morning Leo would be coming by with the feed truck, he'd always yell out, "Good morning Dennis. What do you need?" I'd say, "My bull wants more corn and for myself, eggs, bacon, toast & coffee". I love that place and I think the highest of Leo. After about a week of camping in the pen and bathing in the bull waterer, I headed home and just started corresponding with Leo on the phone. Sometimes I called him twice a day. I'd say, "How's my bull doing Leo?" Leo would say, "He's fighting all the rest of the bulls and he's got everybody whipped into shape and he's number one". This scenario repeated itself until I couldn't take it anymore and loaded him up and brought him home. This bull was a number fighter of other bulls, not a number one eater. As it turned out when I turned him out with cows, he was still a number one fighter of bulls. And I don't know if he ever bred a cow but he sure fought other bulls. I tried it a couple more times. Halfway through the test I sneaked them back out, took them home where the bulls and myself limped around like whipped dogs for a while. What did I learn? I learned to appreciate the concept of Midland for what it was. I made a friend in Leo that I'll always be very proud of. I have fond memories of the bulls I bought there and the bulls I tried to compete with there. I look at everything in this world through the eyes of someone who sees everything in conceptual terms. Everything is an idea for me.
Back to top Go down
jbob



Posts : 23
Join date : 2010-10-08

PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:11 pm

Robertmac I am not going to argue with you over that one. I totally agree with it. I have asked the question about the feasabilty of useing this animal back in my own herd. I have a very ruthless environment and program that I enforce. But his mother has done it well in this program and I have always had great luck with the sire. So is this calf going to give me daughters that are too big and high maint or will they be like the mother and father. I would say that if you had a bull in this same scenario that I would pose the same question to you.I am very certain that he will finish gaining any day now. And if he does why do you think that he will produce a daughter that is too big or too high maint. What is your evidence that backs up your theory. If he keeps on going and hits 1500# than I will agree with you. But if he finishes in 14 months what else could you ask for? He has a great mother who has stood the test at Sam's and my own places, and also a father who is known for nothing elso but good low input females.

J.Bob Hould
Back to top Go down
RobertMac



Posts : 377
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:45 pm

J Bob, I apologize,I was not being critical of your bull, you or your program. In the past, no doubt I would be using a bull like that back on my cows...now, after reading LL's post, I have more to think about.

Robert McCaskill
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:47 pm

jbob wrote:
Robertmac I am not going to argue with you over that one. I totally agree with it. I have asked the question about the feasabilty of useing this animal back in my own herd. I have a very ruthless environment and program that I enforce. But his mother has done it well in this program and I have always had great luck with the sire. So is this calf going to give me daughters that are too big and high maint or will they be like the mother and father. I would say that if you had a bull in this same scenario that I would pose the same question to you.I am very certain that he will finish gaining any day now. And if he does why do you think that he will produce a daughter that is too big or too high maint. What is your evidence that backs up your theory. If he keeps on going and hits 1500# than I will agree with you. But if he finishes in 14 months what else could you ask for? He has a great mother who has stood the test at Sam's and my own places, and also a father who is known for nothing elso but good low input females.

J.Bob Hould
How can a low input female be anything other than a low output female? And as we`ve discussed before, and will always I guess, the early maturing, fat heifer type has not been very long lasting or fertile here...low input has become just another clique of marketing miracles...
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Riddle me this   

Back to top Go down
 
Riddle me this
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 5Go to page : 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Keeney`s Corner :: Breeding Philosophies :: Breeding Philosophies-
Jump to: