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 Two looks at cow efficiency

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Two looks at cow efficiency   Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:16 am

http://beefmagazine.com/blog/can-we-measure-cow-efficiency-not-single-trait?NL=BEEF-02&Issue=BEEF-02_20150702_BEEF-02_509&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_2&utm_rid=CPG02000000657842&utm_campaign=4693&utm_medium=email&elq2=7552ee2f8d304ada98e2ccef17384399

“Don’t believe for a minute that we will evaluate a trait called cow efficiency. It’s not a trait. It’s an index of components,” says Mike MacNeil, with Delta G genetics consulting.

I dare someone to submit the following PCC BS as an answer to cow efficiency Smile

Question: “I understand how small cows produce more pounds and profit per acre than large cows. I’m wondering if there is a limit to how small cows can be.”

Answer: Excellent question. A herd of 4-frame cows will produce more pounds and profit per acre than a herd of 6-frame cows. Likewise, a herd of 2-frame cows will produce more pounds and profit per acre than a herd of 4-frame cows – and a herd of Lowline (miniature Angus) cows will produce more pounds per acre than a herd of 2-frame cows. I’m confident a flock of ewes will produce more pounds per acre than a herd of Lowline cows.


Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
Albert Einstein

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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:19 am

Quote :
I’m confident a flock of ewes will produce more pounds per acre than a herd of Lowline cows.
Then quit trying to change the cows and raise $heep. Go past go and collect $200 without the time delay. Happy days are hear again.
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:22 am

I wonder if PCC has considered the fact that crickets might be the way to go over miniature ewes?

Had a guy stop by the farm a couple days ago looking for partners, land and buildings, to get into the compost and cricket business.

"Crickets offer marvelous advantages over traditional protein sources like beef. Crickets need only about two pounds of feed per pound of usable meat; for beef, it takes 25 pounds of feed for the same pound of meat. Likewise, it only takes about a gallon of water to raise one pound of crickets, compared to 2,000 gallons of water for a pound of cow. And crickets produce 100 times fewer greenhouse gasses than cows.

Nutritionally, crickets offer advantages, too: they have half the fat and a third more protein than beef.

Finally, crickets just taste good!"
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:49 am

Great idea, but a hard sell as a replacement to beef.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Thu Jul 02, 2015 2:38 pm

I hadn`t realized that beef production stopped at weaning... Shocked
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:10 pm

Agriculture's use of the term "water use" like it is somehow gone once it passes through rather than a part of a cycle frustrates me. I guess I should say reading it frustrates me. Much like the war here in the desert on phreatophytes. Somehow the experts are convinced that bare ground is more healthy. I think I 'll quit reading again. Not much use to be edumacated anymore. Everything I believe in and stand for has been ruled wrong, incensitive, offensive, backward....
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:07 am

for me, Breeding cattle is as near heaven as I ever need to be; selling the breeding stock of that effort is pure hell...but as Larry often said about his breeding efforts, he always saw enough good to keep him going...so do I when it applies to selling...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:10 am

had a call today for a 600 lb bull {buy cheap;grow out; save money I suspect the purpose} so sorry I didn`t have them call Pharo Twisted Evil albino
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:13 am

MKeeney wrote:
had a call today for a 600 lb bull {buy cheap;grow out; save money I suspect the purpose} so sorry I didn`t have them call Pharo Twisted Evil albino

How come "smart business folks" start "smart business" discussions based on cow size rather than on "smart business" calf value? It makes no sense to me. Send them a brochure about the millions to be made on chinchilla farming. Cattle efficiency is just like couponing. You have to spend a higher % of the stated asking price to get the coupon value of something that you really didn't need.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:54 pm

Beef production efficiency best comes from a system of maternal-paternal selection and then crossing; nothing else come close...
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Gus



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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:40 pm



There is a lot one has to believe is true. For me this heifer was years of creation. Was my pride enjoy till she calved! lacked one important trait.
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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:08 pm

I`m game to wildly take a guess...judging from some experiences I`ve had with similar type, not enough milk? with the squarer hip might be calving difficultly ? probably wrong on both counts, positive side, powerful beef heifer...tell us more Gus ?
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Gus



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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:20 pm

Efficiency may be a important trait, but a maternal cow needs them all. The heifer pictured was one I produce before I found this site and had my eyes open. None the less she had all the traits I was looking for. She kept herself in good condition, was close to the right size, she calved on first service twice, unassisted (I was dumb enough to give her a second chance) she had a very picture perfect udder looked like she would give plenty of milk, was easy to handle, But she would attack her calf on sight didn't bother the other cows calves just hers. Would run across the carrel at full speed to get to her calf but for all the wrong reasons. I spent way too much time thinking she would come out of it before I fostered the calves on other cows.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:22 am

Gus, I had a sire group, not just a random heifer, that all attacked their calf...he was a big framed son of Premier {remember that name?the cat got out of the bag; the bull out of the woodpile, in both Angus cattle and then Association leadership a long time ago} Progressor I had bought to use as a terminal bull...the daughters were just too terminal... Very Happy Very Happy what fool would dare suggest Angus, the Convenience Breed Question ...better be more specific...
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:25 am

MKeeney wrote:
I`m game to wildly take a guess...judging from some experiences I`ve had with similar type, not enough milk? with the squarer hip might be calving difficultly ? probably wrong on both counts, positive side, powerful beef heifer...tell us more Gus ?

I saw the look on her face, and knew before Gus said that she was a calf killer/hater/chaser - face says it all - attitude! We give them a second chance if their first time antics can be put down to stress or something we have done or not done but if they display a complete disdain for their calves or worse then that is, as they say, it! Of course second strike is fatal for them too. We have just about bred all potential bad mothers out of the herd but they still surprise us sometimes.

I am going to be off air for a bit now - enjoy the gathering those lucky enough to be attending!
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:38 am

pukerimu wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
I`m game to wildly take a guess...judging from some experiences I`ve had with similar type, not enough milk? with the squarer hip might be calving difficultly ? probably wrong on both counts, positive side, powerful beef heifer...tell us more Gus ?

I saw the look on her face, and knew before Gus said that she was a calf killer/hater/chaser - face says it all - attitude!  We give them a second chance if their first time antics can be put down to stress or something we have done or not done but if they display a complete disdain for their calves or worse then that is, as they say, it!  Of course second strike is fatal for them too.  We have just about bred all potential bad mothers out of the herd but they still surprise us sometimes.

I am going to be off air for a bit now - enjoy the gathering those lucky enough to be attending!

Take care Megan; good health, and get back soon; ...remember your future engagement, Gathering Guest of Honor , adding an international flavor to our speaking list in 2017...or sooner cheers
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:22 am

lol!
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:55 am

I find its about impossible to tell much of anything from a picture, but from experience I've had over the years here heifers that have a hormone imbalance at calving tend to have a heavy front shoulder and course hide... not as pronounce as a freemartin but hints of that type. I found it could take up to two weeks for this type to come back to a relative "balance".

I also had heifers with what I consider my more preferred phenotype out of a particular very popular angus A.I sire that would be in crazy mode at calving but would straighten out after a few hours, never actually killed the calf and I never had to help them as they where calving out on pasture but they would throw them around and push them across the field but never jumped on them.

I also had a group of three commercial angus cows that the local auction mart manager bought me once, when I asked him why as he had no order, he told me they where to good of cows to not buy at that price... I asked him why they were sold and he told me the old guy just can't deal with them at calving anymore Rolling Eyes  Anyway phenotypically these cows seemed normal but when they calved they would root and throw the calves around every time I saw them but I never heard the accompanying bellowing if I wasn't in eyesight, turned out as long as they didn't see me they were fine, aggressive mothers but not throwing and rooting.

Anyway bottom line is life is to short to mess with them.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:15 pm

pukerimu wrote:

I saw the look on her face, and knew before Gus said that she was a calf killer/hater/chaser - face says it all - attitude!

Cows must look different in NZ. The heifer pictured looks sullen, almost dopey in the picture to me.

Had one of my cows do that last year on her 4th calf. Just stupid for 3 days or so, knocking the calf over but still knew it was hers. Had to corral her to get the calf suckled and keep it safe initially. Made the mistake of keeping her and she did it again this year. No more chances. Never showed any signs as a younger cow.

By the same token had a cow  that did it in Scotland - calving outside she was on her 3rd calf before we caught on to what was happening (first calf had been found dead - assumed born dead) second was nursing a sore leg for a while. Third we saw her battering it. We kept her and she never did it again - sold at 11 year old to the guy who bought our farm.
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:38 pm

I am impressed. I can't tell from the picture that she would do that.
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:41 pm

Gus,
I always enjoy your pictures and post thanks for sharing, she is a nice heifer sunning herself, from previous posts I know you have more like her minus the short circuit that can replace her.
There will always be a few curve balls thrown, seems to be natures way of keeping us humble Wink
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:08 pm

me neither...especially since I couldn`t see how high above the eyes her hair whorl was located...is higher calmer or wilder; I forget...
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:34 am

MKeeney wrote:
me neither...especially since I couldn`t see how high above the eyes her hair whorl was located...is higher calmer or wilder; I forget...

Only thing I saw was non-feminine type. I've seen older cows gravitate toward this look and still be fertile but have never seen good come from a generic blocky look in heifers and young cows. Some of the ones with the whorl in the wrong place are hard to classify without binoculars.
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Gus



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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:04 pm

Thanks, I had other cows either leave their calves or treat them rough but none like that cow did, I have no doubt she would have killed the calves had she been left with her. All the other cows with time would take their calves, I don't recall how many days we tried to get her to take the calf, but I never saw any less aggression towards her calf, and in her frizzy she would acted like you would be next on her list. Wish I could of told by looks, I agree she's not all that feminine, but she was the type and kind I was trying to produce at the time.


Don't know if this cow is any better when it comes to femininity, but she has earned my respect. Her little calf was one of three kept for replacements. A cow that takes better care of her calf is hard to fine.
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Gus



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PostSubject: Re: Two looks at cow efficiency   Sun Jul 19, 2015 12:04 am



Here's what that calf looked like last fall, does she have a good whorl?
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