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MKeeney
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PostSubject: what you see   Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:15 pm

is what you get...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/beef/68892398/at-mt-mable-what-you-see-is-what-you-get

I see a two week instead of one week Fiji vacation ...and a trip to the US in the near gathering future... Smile
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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:05 am

Suzann has the lead this week-end in Canada...



and  Megan is on the verge of a record bull sale  ...



it`s all good...Hobson Kahl
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:48 pm

Haha - thanks for your support Mike - morning of jitters here but it has dawned a beautiful day - final fall of the final hammer tells the story is what we always say - just fingers crossed that 3 years, since I sat down and thought about the matings to get the cows we wanted, has a happy ending for their brothers ....................
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jonken



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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:27 pm

[quote="MKeeney"]Suzann has the lead this week-end in Canada...




Mike,
You might ask Linda her opinion....but it looks like Suzann's arm might be bent a little much on the release. Don't see any towel in sight either:)
Kendra

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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:47 pm

At least someone listens to my coaching Rolling Eyes ; but after today, I will resign coaching even Linda, and playing might be next; it was that bad...but it was a beautiful, warm day with friends...and I can remember one good shot early in the round Smile
as for Suzann, she pulled out her first win since 2013...in her interview, she remarked how proud she was of how she handled herself on the course...Linda calls it poor behavior, I just see the grit and determination to wade through whatever gets in her way... cheers
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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:52 pm

Kendra,
Linda just read your post and agrees 100% about the arm bend AND the towel...I see a student rebellion; she wants her lessons from Suzann... Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:06 am

MKeeney wrote:
and  Megan is on the verge of a record bull sale  ...


l

how did the sale go Megan? new buyers? new lookers? shall I add you to the growing list of tax-write off sponsors for this year`s Gathering; or do you want to wait until you and Kevin visit a Gathering in person ? Smile
I know you have time to answer  since there`s not much packing to do for Fiji ?  Smile
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:40 am

Anticipation. ......... Neutral
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:27 am

EddieM wrote:
Anticipation. ......... Neutral

Carly Simon...oh wait, this isn`t name that tune...it`s name that bull Smile
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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:25 am

The name of any young bull is "Great Hope". Probably has Bob as an ancestor. Thanks for the memories.
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:56 pm

Good morning - up early trucking the first of the bulls.

We had a very rewarding day on Monday (despite most of our clients suffering a decimation of their budgetted lamb income) Got 49 to the sale ring in the end - passed two - both we should have withdrawn - had one with temp issues and let him through as he appeared to have settled enough once other rabble rousers were taken out of the mob ............. no one wanted him - forewarned folk in the catalogue that we were not sure about him and he came into the ring snorting and circling and left again at 100 miles an hour without so much as a finger being raised Evil or Very Mad - another was not much of a bull if we are honest and was only left in to make up numbers seeing as we had withdrawn others for injuries etc. Seemingly our buyers do know what they are looking at and it is a case of "what you see".

Anyway smaller crowd than last year but obviously just not so many tyre kickers - average was $6,984 which is just under $200 less for the 47 we sold last year. Sold Lot 1 and 3 to studs with similar philosophies to ours ($14k and $12k respectively) - sadly (not really - was a lovely day!) the sun shone all day and as a result of people not coming into the selling shed until just before the auction kicked off I have been giving away food in all directions - totally over catered but if it was a foul day everyone crams into the shed and scoff so likely to do similar quantities again next year - have not yet mastered control of the weather amongst my talents lol!

We have welcomed about 5 new buyers to our midst and had another 3 come for a look, register to get on the mailing list and have assured us that they really liked what they saw and will come back next year. We need a few new faces every year as not all of our regulars need a bull every year and the sales can be up and down without new ones coming in - when we were at remote Ohura it would seem like every second year was okay, every third not so good and then the demand would outstrip our supply the next and some would be disappointed, repeated over and over - now with good accessibility we have swelled our ranks of infrequent regulars who hopefully never all need a bull in the same year .................................

Thanks for your interest. Now to get on with book keeping and other non bull related jobs - been out and trucked some and sorted an afternoon load since starting and finishing this - fun trying to read paint marks in the gloom - managed to find the ones we wanted before the truck arrived
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76 Bar



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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:57 pm

Sounds as though you were pleased with your sale results. Congratulations!
Quote :
passed two - both we should have withdrawn - had one with temp issues and let him through as he appeared to have settled enough once other rabble rousers were taken out of the mob ............. no one wanted him - forewarned folk in the catalogue that we were not sure about him and he came into the ring snorting and circling and left again at 100 miles an hour without so much as a finger being raised (snip) another was not much of a bull if we are honest and was only left in to make up numbers seeing as we had withdrawn others for injuries etc.
Curious to know what your parameters/protocols are for accessing acceptable dispositions and performance for your sale bulls as well as your replacements/cows.

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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:22 pm

To be honest there were three bulls this year (including the passed one) which did not meet our temperament criteria (although the one left in, had settled to the point that he was acceptable until being put under the pressure of being in the ring surrounded by people and a yelling auctioneer) - potentially if we had not commented in the catalogue someone may have bid - our wild is probably other people's pretty calm. All the bulls had been pretty good and then after a prolonged episode of fighting in the mob, the three developed nervous tendencies anytime they were mobbed up, for moving, weighing etc which then appeared to transcend into relating their nervousness at being mobbed, to a nervousness of being worked, to then nervousness at the sight of us. Once the two worst offenders were removed the third did settle and was relaxed enough with people walking around him on sale day but the sale arena got the better of him - better that than packing up completely during trucking and arriving at a buyers strange yards as a menace. he was left in as, for all the above, he had many other desirable attributes.

We judge on their ability to be walked out of the mob by themselves, standing while you walk around them (in an open pasture setting), standing in the cattle crush when being weighed etc, moving calmly and quietly when in the yards ie no burrowing, barging into mates to get away from pressure and having as smallest as possible personal comfort zone to the high point of accepting a hand on them. Absolutely no aggression if cornered or unsure about where to go next - ever! Any flightiness as a weaner or when they are being break fed on crops over the winter is noted - really any deviation is noted and if they grow out of it and get over themselves they are allowed to stay (with the note against them for future reference) but if there are repeat occurrences on unacceptable silliness then they go - male and female - if it comes to selecting replacements and there is a choice between one with T marked by her and one without - the one without gets to stay. The females do not get as intensively handled as the sale bulls except for calving time when we expect to be able to retrieve them and their calves out of the barren calving paddocks, walk them through the yards, briefly separate them to tag and weigh the calves and then let them go into saved pasture with other calved cows - we have a system which the cows learn really quickly and it is only a persistent very few which make us use cunning and guile to get them to go on so we can shut a gate behind and between them and the calf and us. The older cows are usually waiting near the gate out of the calving paddocks or with easy access to it with their calves fed, licked and conditioned to follow at their hip when we turn up in the morning. They are obviously concerned at any separation but neither overly anxious, or aggressive through the gates - we hold the calf on a weigh platform hard up against the rails and right under their noses which placates them very easily. Again a first calver's excitement is more tolerated than that of an older cow who has been there, done that. The tagging results in more frequent bellowing now that we have to use the RFID tags which are placed in the ear close to the calves head where it is more uncomfortable for them - happy to have the rails between us if there is bellowing - even the mellowest cow seems to come alive at that point.

We have no predators that the animals need to develop a flight or fight instinct and while we never judge a cow with a young calf which gets aggressive and upset if the dogs are mistakenly allowed anywhere near her - we do not accept the same aggression being displayed towards those of us on two legs. While some may say it is purely handling I am a firm believer that while you can make naturally quiet cattle wild by handling it is very difficult to make naturally wild cattle quiet - intelligence has a lot to do with it. We sell our bulls to mostly repeat clients who always tell us when they are new clients that they cannot believe how quiet their weaners have become and therefore further down the line their replacement females. In a NZ system where many farmers work alone, not often on horses, and have many fences and gateways to negotiate, and retain their young cattle either through to finishing, or until just before their second winter before quitting them to specialist grass finishers - quiet cattle are more than acceptable, they are highly sought after.

The other passed bull was the lightest on offer - and while it shouldn't be about the biggest sometimes it just is when you have just enough buyers for just one to many bulls - the choosers can be pickers Smile
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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:49 pm

should not true purebreds give more good than you see? Are the biggest calves weaning/yearling in NZ in the registered herds as they are in the US? Should not the biggest calves weaning/yearling be in commercial herds?
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:18 pm

if we are honest AND To be honest in your last two post has me wondering.... is you or aint you honest?
why not start your next post with "Once upon a time"
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:18 pm

Quote :
should not true purebreds give more good than you see?

By planned cross breeding? Yes
By straight breeding? It depends on how much the buyer sees. If he sees the whole program: calves, heifers, bulls, cows, steers, ... there is nothing more to see or expect, is there?

Had a group come from GA to look at ram lambs. One guy picked his fairly quickly(repeat customer) and a new guy seemed shocked to see how small they are at weaning compared to his terminal crossed lambs. He likes the friend's crossed ewes, he likes the straight ewes, he likes the straight mature rams but he did not have the stomach to buy a young ram and expect the known. Like a fellow that used to sell cedar fence posts said when folks picked through the pile and you culled a number of them, "Don't worry, if you don't want it somebody else will."

Some choices are made based on status or potential to avoid criticism from others rather than on profitable and convenient results.
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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:46 pm

Eddie,
I bet the top "stud bulls" were the outliers for "performance"...already noted the lightest bull did not sell...since the outliers breed back toward the middle, those buyers might have seen more than they will get... a few oceans away; just sayin Smile
Performance {meaning more of many traits} has replaced prepotency as the role of purebreds... might as well mix them all back up; select the one "bestest mostest" of everything breed...
that`s the long and current nature of the beast; to stay on top; you got to ride for the brand Smile if you got bills to pay; spur the horsey harder, Megan; my way won`t pay debt...Very Happy
does the NZ association have the regional sales gadabouts the AAA does ?
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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:30 pm

larkota wrote:
if we are honest AND To be honest in your last two post has me wondering.... is you or aint you honest?
why not start your next post with "Once upon a time"

Whoa - okay so we catalogued three bulls that we were not as happy with the temps as we like to be - all of them had notes against them in the catalogue to say these were not as quiet as we'd like and would be best to go to a station with lots of other bulls - two were withdrawn - the third settled adequately to make us think that he would be okay - he wasn't and he didn't sell - how can I be any more frank than that? Happily we do not have to prove our honesty to you - the repeat buyers who bought 40 of the bulls and the new 5 buyers who bought 7 of them are the one's that need to be comfortable with our integrity - seemingly they are. Yes, I type a lot - sorry.

Mike - weaning weight - not sure about your EPD's but according to our EBV's 90% of weaning weight is to do with management and feeding and 10% heritability - now I am not going to go all pious and say "see the figures say" in light of my view on estimated and expected number crunching but I think it is fair to say that weaning weights that cattle breeders, both registered and not, achieve depends much on how well the milking cow is fed and as a result how much the calf is fed - except of course where creep feeders come into play which is not something that is often seen in NZ - certainly not in the commercial sector and if any registered breeders are using them they are keeping it very quiet (and no, Larkota - we do not use them Wink )

The bulls that went to stud were not outliers - they were just the type that those two studs were looking for - we think that one has chosen wisely and that the other would have been better with another bull but it is not our job to tell those who should know how, how to suck eggs - we hardly send any stud's catalogues - if they are interested enough to come and look they get on our mailing list otherwise we focus on breeding the type of bull that our commercial buyers come back for every year.

No regional managers here - the stock firms manage the bookings (ie take the risk of slow or non payers) and provide an auctioneer - we all pay them the same commission for their services and several firms were represented - one firm "runs" (booking clerk and auctioneer provided) our sale but other stock firm agents who bring their clients get a share of the total commission ie we pay a % - the firms take a cut of that depending on whether the buyer books their bull through them or not. The Association is completely removed from the process.
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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:08 pm

The bulls that went to stud were not outliers - they were just the type that those two studs were looking for - we think that one has chosen wisely and that the other would have been better with another bull but it is not our job to tell those who should know how, how to suck eggs - we hardly send any stud's catalogues - if they are interested enough to come and look they get on our mailing list otherwise we focus on breeding the type of bull that our commercial buyers come back for every year.


what were their weight ratio`s? I thought all your bulls were very much the same type in the pics...but every  breeder has some variation of weight; and the paying COMMERCIAL CUSTOMER wants more weight...are his wants his true needs? has he determined his needs by economic analysis or by listening to the "performance movement" which includes a variety of support group?

but maybe instead of  calling out the performance movement supporters on {quote}Bribery, corruption and racketeering ,thinking God speaks to them,  too damn dumb , morally bankrupt , pathetic blue light board members, clowns ,embarrassment  wheelers and dealers and cheaters , crooks ; {quote}

maybe our crowd should ask themselves... if stabilization of type and prepotency is such an improvement, why are not more breeders practicing it, and more commercial customers demanding it ?
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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:18 pm

and from recent Reflections Condensed...

During the formative years of the "TruLine" concept, encouraged by Mr. K.A. Clark, he forewarned me that any success will be dependent upon the proper education of the commercial beef producers. The profundity of that simple short statement has never been more applicable than today....and that alone is the only mission for my participation on KC, my cattle must sell themselves by their own recognizabilty LL


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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:47 pm

Yes the bulls were all a type with subtle differences that you would expect. Lot 1 (stud) was the heaviest bull at 868 kg but the variation in weight between the heaviest 5 bulls was not great and the heaviest of the rest (not necessarily the biggest) were not necessarily the most valuable. Lot 3 (stud) was not the second heaviest bull. We breed for a type and do not need to do "corrective" matings as a rule, as we select bulls on type too - I suspect that others do use the bulls in an attempt to problem solve. We are happy if they think that our bulls are the ones for the job.

if stabilization of type and prepotency is such an improvement, why are not more breeders practicing it, and more commercial customers demanding it ?

We are starting to see in our results that many are demanding type and prepotency in NZ. Sadly I think the "education" of the US farmers has been too successful that the numbers are the key and the bigger, higher, most etc etc is the key to that. So much easier to sell than a normalised herd don't you think. Compare the advertising slogans for cattle of each creed and ask yourself which can be the most hypo? NZ commercial farmers in the main are too savvy to stay sucked into something that is failing to deliver for very long - the sink or swim environment of farming in general and in shark infested waters in free trade NZ means that if it doesn't work it is discarded p.d.q Smile
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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:06 pm

I just can`t get my head around "top sellers" anymore...usually a waste of money for temporary phenotypic illusion if a breeding program is truly in place...I remember trying to buy a "top bull" at LL`s after the hay days of high prices...never had enough money...$3500 about 1984 and tops brought 7500 to 8500 or so...one was Shoshone Barkley 2712...{sure a wonder the preservers Shocked haven`t latched onto that "pure pedigree" semen}

if only a couple of bulls are "good enough" in a sale offering, best go home and use your own...I wasted too many years trying to buy 'best"...remember Lundell and Lyndell of Wye...Lundell the highest price Larry ever paid and near the worst he used...Lyndell brings a tenth of the price and both bulls end up siring about the same progeny etc...
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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:58 am

You hit the nail on the head as to why we are using our own bulls more and more - I guess we could spend 6 months of the year looking at other people's cattle but actually prefer to look at our own - being a pedigree snob makes it really difficult to find bulls from other breeding programmes - our loudest and biggest arguments are generally over which bull would suit us best. This year we will be using 4 of our own.
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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:33 am

Looking elsewhere can be fun; so long as no selection must take place; which would be guessing...looking daily at home is closer to knowing...
Larry and I were on a little adventurous looking trip several years ago...both of us left impressed; Larry got that "look" and asked, "how many cows do you think we saw today?" I said about 200..."how many cows did he say they had? 700, right?

yeah, wonder what the other 500 looked like?
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PostSubject: Re: what you see   Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:54 pm

Looking elsewhere can be fun; so long as no selection must take place; which would be guessing

Unless of course you have been following the other source genetics for almost as long as your own .............................. takes a lot of the guess work out of it with about as much chance as getting it wrong as at home. Hard to get it right 100% of the time. We are fortunate that NZ small and the stud breeding world so much smaller again.
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