Keeney`s Corner

A current and reflective discussion of cattle breeding from outside the registered mainstream
 
HomeUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
AuthorMessage
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:18 am

larkota wrote:
please dont tell me we have to feed them to fail like Kit. roughed compared to what? Kelly? OT? each has there own idea of this.

had a friend tells me his cows live on blue sky and water. never fed a bale yet. then I find out they are out in foodplots after pheasant season.

what is roughed?

I have so much to learn.
you have learned the most important things; don`t be fooled by marketing BS and there are no miracles...you`re well prepared to breed cattle...
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
RobertMac



Posts : 377
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:21 am

larkota wrote:
what is roughed?

Is having an excess of forage in front of the cattle(but nothing else) being "roughed"?
Back to top Go down
PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:30 am

Keep heifers out of cows that excell under your management style and IF you selected the right sire you will have a herd of cows that work under your management style. I have been cleaning out the registration paper notebook of animals we no longer have and did not transfer papers on. What an education experience that has been with some bulls descendants dropping out in a generation or two.
Back to top Go down
larkota



Posts : 371
Join date : 2010-09-23
Age : 57
Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:03 am

80% less by volume or mcal

what should a heifer recieve after weaning? I am sure Mt. is not the same as Ky. volume means little. mcal I understand. time of breeding means much. I dont think 1 size fit all. how do I find out what is to rough? when 10, or 20, or 30% come in open. when the market is right for opens but when it is not then what?? anything bred now is worth more then open.

ok Pat explain excell. the ones that excell here take alot of feed. how is that good? should I be keeping the ones with good intake?

when I was but a kid we had Maine-Anjou. the black cows got along just fine but the MA would abort cause the lack of energy. intake should of been the same .
Back to top Go down
EddieM



Posts : 895
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:30 am

Quote :
Is having an excess of forage in front of the cattle(but nothing else) being "roughed"?

Not if it is what you want to do. But if you know that you are shorting them on salt and minerals then it is not "roughed" but "a purposeful imbalance" to create a deer-type cow. Isn't that your goal? Then you are following your managemnt plan successfully.
Back to top Go down
EddieM



Posts : 895
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:34 am

Quote :
what should a heifer recieve after weaning? I am sure Mt. is not the same as Ky. volume means little. mcal I understand. time of breeding means much. I dont think 1 size fit all. how do I find out what is to rough? when 10, or 20, or 30% come in open. when the market is right for opens but when it is not then what?? anything bred now is worth more then open.

It can be pretty simple across the board. Everybody wants them to gain some weight and grow. Just pick a target weight that you can live with and divide the weight to be gained by the days to do it and feed for the average daily amount. Individually taylored for your planned % of bred/open economics.

Quote :
anything bred now is worth more then open

That would depend on your carrying cost and cost per pound of gain.
Back to top Go down
jbob



Posts : 23
Join date : 2010-10-08

PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:04 pm

THe whole idea seems elementary too me. I am amazed by the big purebreed producers that are now touting that they are producing effecient cattle. Quoting weights that a yearling heifer should weight at a year old in order to make her a certain weight at maturity. It is all a bunch of BULL. if these certain producers were not playing the game and producing the monsters of years past. Then none of us would be talking about efficient cows. They would just be cows. Unfortunatly ALL of us have been pulled in by the need for more and most of us have decided that it was not worth it before any real damage was done. Environment will decide which cows (type) will work and the first step is too treat them a bit rough at first and the cream will rise to the top.

J.Bob Hould

Home of average cows with an above average ability to survive.
Back to top Go down
Grassfarmer



Posts : 850
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:41 pm

I had a little foray into this "treating heifers tough" theory in recent years - we kind of drifted that way, lulled by reading too much and thinking too little. Last year was the turning point in the learning experience. We had poorer than normal silage in a drought year with high feed costs and chose to drop our usual pellet supplement ration to the weaned heifer calves. After a cold early winter the calves lost a bit of weight but then picked up and looked very healthy towards spring. Problem was their net gain for the winter was almost zero so we had substantially set them back in their development making them smaller at start of breeding season. With some careful grass management, and now winter feed management we have got them back almost to where they should be. We never lost anything on conception but likely because we breed close to mid summer - if we had bred earlier the result might have been more costly. It was a stupid experiment that I won't be repeating and it certainly was not "efficient" or profitable.
With pellets costing us 8.5c/lb and silage 5.3c/lb on a dry matter basis replacing pellets with more silage just doesn't make sense if the result is the cattle stand still versus gain 1lb+ per day. We only ever feed about 3lb of pellets and usually drop them closer to spring when it warms up and their rumens are better adjusted to using larger quantities of forage.
Another thing that struck me as stupid afterwards was that our cows are already kept on a fairly tough, extended season grazing program so if they have been selected for "foraging efficiency" why wouldn't we trust their offspring to have it also?
Back to top Go down
http://www.luingcattle.com
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:48 pm

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
Is having an excess of forage in front of the cattle(but nothing else) being "roughed"?

Not if it is what you want to do. But if you know that you are shorting them on salt and minerals then it is not "roughed" but "a purposeful imbalance" to create a deer-type cow. Isn't that your goal? Then you are following your managemnt plan successfully.

If the goal of a breeder is more consistency of a type, do you really think you can leave type selection to nature? Doesn`t nature give you variation of type as a precaution to preserve the specie if the environment changes?
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:36 pm

larkota wrote:
didnt have to spend money on research. all I did was take notes and watched what Jack did. guess what - either ARS or Jack is right.

Thanks Briann but don't follow me, I'm lost. scratch All I've ever done is watch and work with the successful ranchers in this area that I have the utmost respect for and follow their lead. I bounced around from Neb, Wyo, Colo, Ore, Utah. then Mont. and one thing I've learned is that what works in one area very seldom works in another as far as management. Especially when it comes to feeding.

I don't understand all this talk about the variation in nature. As far as I can see there is very little variation. I'm like Dennis, all my Antelope and Mule deer have EPDs of 0 BW, 0 WW, O YW, and 0 Milk. Maybe I'm wrong but they all look alike to me other than their horns.
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:05 pm

Jack McNamee wrote:
larkota wrote:
didnt have to spend money on research. all I did was take notes and watched what Jack did. guess what - either ARS or Jack is right.

Thanks Briann but don't follow me, I'm lost. scratch All I've ever done is watch and work with the successful ranchers in this area that I have the utmost respect for and follow their lead. I bounced around from Neb, Wyo, Colo, Ore, Utah. then Mont. and one thing I've learned is that what works in one area very seldom works in another as far as management. Especially when it comes to feeding.

I don't understand all this talk about the variation in nature. As far as I can see there is very little variation. I'm like Dennis, all my Antelope and Mule deer have EPDs of 0 BW, 0 WW, O YW, and 0 Milk. Maybe I'm wrong but they all look alike to me other than their horns.


I think it gets eaten before we see it Smile
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:27 pm

Possibly but in just a few generation, they would be gone from the gene pool. I understand there is probably more variation than meets the eye but if I can ever get my cattle as consistant as my antelope I'll consider myself a successful breeder. I know however learning to like what they will be when they become that consistant may be another challenge altogther.
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:14 pm

Jack McNamee wrote:
Possibly but in just a few generation, they would be gone from the gene pool. I understand there is probably more variation than meets the eye but if I can ever get my cattle as consistant as my antelope I'll consider myself a successful breeder. I know however learning to like what they will be when they become that consistant may be another challenge altogther.

The more we want; the more inconsistent things must be...is that "natural law"? I was thinking back to OT wanting a cow with more fat; would these different kinds of "adapted" or "selected"cows, necessitate different specifics in terminal sires to meet ideal market specs? No problem, there is plenty of variation "by averages"...I suppose my questions this afternoon might be more about being stuck in the city for my kid`s joint birthday party, than having an inquiring mind Smile
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
larkota



Posts : 371
Join date : 2010-09-23
Age : 57
Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:05 am

think it is harder on me doing less chores then it is on the heifers getting less feed. in other words feeding was easy with all the modern equipment, change my way of thinking was the harderst part. dont think the heifers have gained much since weaning back in Nov. but boy dont they like to kick up their heals, no snotty noses, brite hair coat running in the pasture instead of a drylot.

use to calf in this weather, had to make them bigger and better. so they said. all I really got was older and deader.

funny story: when my youngest girl was about 12 and had to check at 11pm and 6am. asked me why the dumb heifers were calving in such cold weather, didnt they know any better? had to tell her it wasnt the heifers fault it was the idiot who turned the bull in. she is a senior now, bulls go out now July 15th.

problem I have is all the fenceline feedbunks, yards and barns are empty. should rent it out to someone that likes to work. Razz
Back to top Go down
Grassfarmer



Posts : 850
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:22 pm

larkota wrote:
think it is harder on me doing less chores then it is on the heifers getting less feed. in other words feeding was easy with all the modern equipment, change my way of thinking was the harderst part. dont think the heifers have gained much since weaning back in Nov. but boy dont they like to kick up their heals, no snotty noses, brite hair coat running in the pasture instead of a drylot.

use to calf in this weather, had to make them bigger and better. so they said. all I really got was older and deader.

funny story: when my youngest girl was about 12 and had to check at 11pm and 6am. asked me why the dumb heifers were calving in such cold weather, didnt they know any better? had to tell her it wasnt the heifers fault it was the idiot who turned the bull in. she is a senior now, bulls go out now July 15th.

problem I have is all the fenceline feedbunks, yards and barns are empty. should rent it out to someone that likes to work. Razz

That's an apples to oranges comparison surely larkota? The part about the animals health anyway. We winter feed calves due to climate (currently about a 2 foot snowpack) but they are fed on pasture in bunks and get no bedding. Ours also like to kick up their heels, have no snotty noses and have bright coats - and they are gaining weight @1.5lbs a day since weaning in November. Same calves in the same pasture last winter were gaining next to nothing because we were under feeding energy in an attempt to be "more efficient" - but they still had the good health attributes. I am very cautious now comparing systems as it is easy to fool ourselves on cause and effect to justify our new paradigm.
Back to top Go down
http://www.luingcattle.com
larkota



Posts : 371
Join date : 2010-09-23
Age : 57
Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:12 pm



Same calves in the same pasture last winter were gaining next to nothing because we were under feeding energy in an attempt to be "more efficient" - but they still had the good health attributes. I am very cautious now comparing systems as it is easy to fool ourselves on cause and effect to justify our new paradigm. [/quote]


did you breed any of the heifers from last year?? what was your pg rate? what were you feeding them last year? what did you change for this year to get the 1.5 gain?

last year I kept them with cows. cows got to fat, heifers did so so
this year I have bred, last years fall, and this years spring all running together. seem to be a better fit. high input cattle showing more stress. the et calves seem to be taking to it very well. always fun to see which ones get bred.

winter maybe not as bad as OT. but close. on the days below zero I do add 3lbs of corn / hd. cant wait to try this out on a open year with turnips and radish.
Back to top Go down
Grassfarmer



Posts : 850
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:38 pm

larkota wrote:


did you breed any of the heifers from last year?? what was your pg rate? what were you feeding them last year? what did you change for this year to get the 1.5 gain?

last year I kept them with cows. cows got to fat, heifers did so so
this year I have bred, last years fall, and this years spring all running together. seem to be a better fit. high input cattle showing more stress. the et calves seem to be taking to it very well. always fun to see which ones get bred.

winter maybe not as bad as OT. but close. on the days below zero I do add 3lbs of corn / hd. cant wait to try this out on a open year with turnips and radish.

Yes, our replacement heifers came from that group - pregnancy rates were normal (@ 85-90%) likely because we breed in mid-summer, not because of how we shorted them last winter. Feed last winter was cereal silage and straw - this winter we returned to feeding to our norm of that plus 3lbs a day of wheat short pellets (78% TDN and 17% protein) We just came through a few weeks where the highs were rarely above -20C and lows were usually in the -30Cs with windchill - we haven't seen zero C since November.
My cows never get too fat over winter as we limit feed silage and fill them up with straw to maintain the required condition. Running the weaned calves with the cows would be too tough on the calves as they couldn't compete at the bunk.
Back to top Go down
http://www.luingcattle.com
RobertMac



Posts : 377
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:28 am

Quote :
But if you know that you are shorting them on salt and minerals then it is not "roughed" but "a purposeful imbalance" to create a deer-type cow.
I see where my thinking is wrong...I was thinking that the cattle that need extra salt and minerals were the ones with an imbalance. If "deer-type" means consistency like Jack talks about, I can only wish that I live so long.

Mike, I believe that nature does provide "variation of type", but how do we determine which type fits 'our' environment without testing them against 'our' environment.
Or do we decide the type we want and change 'our' environment to fit that type?

But...
Jack wrote:
I know however learning to like what they will be when they become that consistant may be another challenge altogther.
Back to top Go down
PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:38 am

I believe a combination of the two would be best for my management style. Improve the forage base and select for cattle that work in that enviroment and management. I will be selecting replacements out of the early calvers and selling the late calvers to those that calve in spring. It will take several years to make the transition to the new management style.
Back to top Go down
EddieM



Posts : 895
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:37 am

Quote :
Mike, I believe that nature does provide "variation of type", but how do we determine which type fits 'our' environment without testing them against 'our' environment.
Or do we decide the type we want and change 'our' environment to fit that type?

There's type, there's environment and then there is profit. Pick the priority of the one issue most important to you and you'll move in that direction and if you live long enough you might even get there. Again Robert, you want your cattle in the southeast USA with no inputs. You'll end up with a herd that will, in time, resemble Longhorns and Pineywoods: survivors of past times and no input. If you can market that story and sell the meat for a profit, then you have achieved your goal and I am happy for you.

Change the environment and you can afford cattle that do more of something.

Change to environment too much and you will not be able to afford the change. We are not the first generation to own and raise cows.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:29 pm

EddieM wrote:

There's type, there's environment and then there is profit. Pick the priority of the one issue most important to you and you'll move in that direction and if you live long enough you might even get there. Again Robert, you want your cattle in the southeast USA with no inputs. You'll end up with a herd that will, in time, resemble Longhorns and Pineywoods: survivors of past times and no input. If you can market that story and sell the meat for a profit, then you have achieved your goal and I am happy for you.

With all due respect, I disagree with this Eddie. With no inputs and with no introduction of new blood those cattle would look like the survivors of the past, but I think you could run these cattle with no inputs but not allow them to become inbred and they would not regress that much. I would also think that type, environment, and profit could and done right would, all go hand in hand.
Change the environment and you can afford cattle that do more of something.

Change to environment too much and you will not be able to afford the change. We are not the first generation to own and raise cows.

I agree with the first sentence but I don't understand the second one.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:38 pm

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
Mike, I believe that nature does provide "variation of type", but how do we determine which type fits 'our' environment without testing them against 'our' environment.
Or do we decide the type we want and change 'our' environment to fit that type?

There's type, there's environment and then there is profit. Pick the priority of the one issue most important to you and you'll move in that direction and if you live long enough you might even get there. Again Robert, you want your cattle in the southeast USA with no inputs. You'll end up with a herd that will, in time, resemble Longhorns and Pineywoods: survivors of past times and no input. If you can market that story and sell the meat for a profit, then you have achieved your goal and I am happy for you.

Would that mean that in time the Aleutian cattle will resemble the caribou, or reindeer, or what ever four legged animal with hooves that lives up there? scratch
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:02 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
I had a little foray into this "treating heifers tough" theory in recent years - we kind of drifted that way, lulled by reading too much and thinking too little. Last year was the turning point in the learning experience. We had poorer than normal silage in a drought year with high feed costs and chose to drop our usual pellet supplement ration to the weaned heifer calves. After a cold early winter the calves lost a bit of weight but then picked up and looked very healthy towards spring. Problem was their net gain for the winter was almost zero so we had substantially set them back in their development making them smaller at start of breeding season. With some careful grass management, and now winter feed management we have got them back almost to where they should be. We never lost anything on conception but likely because we breed close to mid summer - if we had bred earlier the result might have been more costly. It was a stupid experiment that I won't be repeating and it certainly was not "efficient" or profitable.
With pellets costing us 8.5c/lb and silage 5.3c/lb on a dry matter basis replacing pellets with more silage just doesn't make sense if the result is the cattle stand still versus gain 1lb+ per day. We only ever feed about 3lb of pellets and usually drop them closer to spring when it warms up and their rumens are better adjusted to using larger quantities of forage.
Another thing that struck me as stupid afterwards was that our cows are already kept on a fairly tough, extended season grazing program so if they have been selected for "foraging efficiency" why wouldn't we trust their offspring to have it also?

I should leave this alone but I just can't. Why do you call what you did stupid? I understand the pellet versus silage if one pound of the pellet has the same feed value of 2 pounds of silage but what I don't understand is what was wrong with smaller heifers that are all bred. They were healthy when they hit grass and were growing. Your conception rates didn't change. If your program is to breed later than what difference does it make to you, that if you would have bred earlier they would not have bred up as well? Careful grass management seems cheap compared to winter feed. With winter feed management they are back where they should be. What diference does that make? A bred heifer in a body condition 5 this time of year is all I need. I don't care about the size. It seems to me that it was a good test but only half a test. What would of happened to those cows if you would have just let them be what ever size they were going to be by no change in winter feed management? Would they have been smaller their whole lives? Would they have needed less feed or more, to winter? Would they have lasted longer or not as long as the heifers that gained 1 pound per day? Would their production have suffered? I sure can't understand why this was stupid.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:12 pm

dwight@steadfastbeef.com wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Quote :
Mike, I believe that nature does provide "variation of type", but how do we determine which type fits 'our' environment without testing them against 'our' environment.
Or do we decide the type we want and change 'our' environment to fit that type?

There's type, there's environment and then there is profit. Pick the priority of the one issue most important to you and you'll move in that direction and if you live long enough you might even get there. Again Robert, you want your cattle in the southeast USA with no inputs. You'll end up with a herd that will, in time, resemble Longhorns and Pineywoods: survivors of past times and no input. If you can market that story and sell the meat for a profit, then you have achieved your goal and I am happy for you.

Would that mean that in time the Aleutian cattle will resemble the caribou, or reindeer, or what ever four legged animal with hooves that lives up there? scratch

And if that is the case then why don't bison look like antelope, and wolves look like coyotes, and grizzly bears look like black bears?
Back to top Go down
RobertMac



Posts : 377
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:45 pm

Eddie, I agree with one point...I won't live long enough to change my cattle into Pineywoods. Smile
Sorting to a type that fits my environment has improved my profitability.

My thinking is simple...if I have two cows, one requires deworming several times a year to breed and raise a good calf...the other cow doesn't require deworming to function just as well...which one has better genetics? How do I differentiate the two without stopping deworming? Continually putting crutches under our cattle, continues to hide flawed animals...we have to apply a little pressure so the cream can rise to the top. Like Grassfarmer noted, sometimes we cross the line and have to backup...I've done the same with my heifers.

I'm not a "no input" producer...I'm a "forage only input" producers...if I don't have forage in the pasture for them to eat, I give them hay...and I believe that's all good cattle need. God didn't create screwed up cattle...man screwed them up.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies   

Back to top Go down
 
Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 2 of 5Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 Similar topics
-
» Raising Efficient Cattle Strategies
» Dunlouise Scottish "Pure" Cattle
» Tropical Cattle Production
» Raising your Vibrations.
» Marketing Trueline and Commercial Cattle

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Keeney`s Corner :: Breeding Philosophies :: Breeding Philosophies-
Jump to: