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 oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...

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Tom



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:10 am

Breeding down to smaller more efficient cows will be more inefficient for awhile, the steers probably won't finish heavier more than their big mothers.
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:13 pm

Robertmac as far as I know that is a problem with all straight Hereford cattle these are personal observations in our climate. As for the Bull question on grass how do you get them to finish and how do you get any number of them done without tearing each other up and all of your fence?

Tom I realize what you are saying but Larry's thoughts and what we did for a number of years was put the Maternal bulls in for 10 or 12 days then put in terminal bulls for the rest of the season. This allowed us to retain the steer size and get enough replacements, the white heifers weight was the same as the black steer calves. That was one reason why we used white bulls to clean up so we knew what was terminal and what was maternal.

Rod we calve in March here as that has two fold reasons for our area. Our desert country has for 29 years been green in March, and I have seen it brown in the other 11 Months. Our spring and summer country is the strongest from May until July so we can get cows bred easier. In July it gets hot and dry on a lot of years and our cows do not cycle as readily.


Bob H
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Tom



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:58 am

Bob, I am sure maternal cows bred to terminal sires is the most efficient system from birth to slaughter, but I don't think it is the most profitable unless you retain ownership. Our Shoshone sired steer calves have sold near the top of market for their weight as grass cattle. Char cross calves sell $10 under blacks around hear, Limousin cross are probably about $3-$4 under Angus looking steer calves. The extra weight usually wouldn't be worth much this time of year either, around here 6wt steers are bringing about the same per head as 5wts. Someone once told me, that's because most yearling guys figure how much they can pay per head, and buy them that way.

When we used to calve heifers in February and the cows started March 1st, we had decent breed up, but our calving season was kind spread out. When we changed to June, our calving season was concentrated, but we had too many opens. April /May seems to have a tight calving season and good breed up.
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MVCatt



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:39 am

Tom wrote:
Bob, I am sure maternal cows bred to terminal sires is the most efficient system from birth to slaughter, but I don't think it is the most profitable unless you retain ownership. Our Shoshone sired steer calves have sold near the top of market for their weight as grass cattle. Char cross calves sell $10 under blacks around hear, Limousin cross are probably about $3-$4 under Angus looking steer calves. The extra weight usually wouldn't be worth much this time of year either, around here 6wt steers are bringing about the same per head as 5wts. Someone once told me, that's because most yearling guys figure how much they can pay per head, and buy them that way.

When we used to calve heifers in February and the cows started March 1st, we had decent breed up, but our calving season was kind spread out. When we changed to June, our calving season was concentrated, but we had too many opens. April /May seems to have a tight calving season and good breed up.

Seems a lot like the Northern Virginia feeder calf market I sell into. My "Shoshone Type" steers top the graded sales. Due to my small scale, my marketing goal is to get my calves into a big pen at the graded sale. So I have to do what everyone else does (Black Hide) and not give buyers a reason to dock me (Small Frame, Fleshy etc.). If I was feeding cattle out on cheaper grain I would think the Char-Angus steer would be the best you could buy. They would grade and you could feed them longer to heavier weights. But what do I know about feeding cattle...I wasn't happy with later calving here. My cows are milking pretty good in late May early June (best feed they get all year) they need to have calves on them big enough to utilize it.
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:20 am

Tom and MVcatt it is good to visit with people from different environments and marketing areas. In our area the Charx calves demand a premium no mater what weight and I understand the grass guys mentality about dollars per hd. when buying. But when you sell yearlings I also understand that you sell them by the pound with a slide and no mater what the heaviest return the most profit.

Tom what are the conditions on the ground when you breed your cows? Bob H
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Tom



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:15 pm

A few years ago, a California rancher that summered yearlings in Wyoming asked me why more people didn't use Charolaise bulls in Wyoming. He loved them.

Our cows are at 7 to 8000 ft elevation during the breeding season. The grass is headed out but still green. The desert, where the cows are from January through May is mostly warm season grass, so it doesn't green up much earlier than the mountain. In 2012 they wintered on 2011 grass. In 2013 they wintered on 2011 grass.

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:12 pm

Tom, how did you select your Shoshone bulls...no epd`s and all ? Shocked Very Happy Very Happy
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Tom



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:33 pm

Well Mike, some of the first ones we got weren't much to look at. It was late in the spring and Larry only had about a dozen 2 yr olds left to pick from. He told us a couple of ear tag numbers that should sire nice cows, other than that we chose the bigger ones, which weren't big. We had been using mostly Beckton and Ohlde breeding the last dozen years and some of our cows are too small framed. Now I try to go up earlier and pick what looks the best to me. Not the tallest, not the shortest, a little fleshier than average, because our place looks a lot like around Lovell without the irrigated farm ground.

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rross



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:38 pm



1 is how do you fix white eyes and white udders.

Have Pam drive around in a ATV with the Grand-kids Supersoaker filled with Mineral Oil Smile

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RobertMac



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Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:47 pm

Bob H wrote:
Robertmac as far as I know that is a problem with all straight Hereford cattle these are personal observations in our climate.

>Bob,it was just the idea that the most unrelated and most pure bred parent stock would make the best F1 production cow and a steer that would finish well on grass.<


As for the Bull question on grass how do you get them to finish

>By finish, I'm sure you mean "high choice or prime"? No, they won't do that. But here is what seems to be a little known secret in the beef industry....there are consumers that would rather buy lean beef. Bulls produce lean beef and more of it. A win-win for me and my customers.<

and how do you get any number of them done without tearing each other up and all of your fence?

>These bulls have lived their lives together and with a single strand of polywire keeping them in place. They give me less problems than the heifers.<


Bob H
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:09 pm

Rod we may just keep doing what we are doing and let Pam and the grandkids soak each other with water.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:05 am

http://beefmagazine.com/blog/13-things-consider-holistically-manage-your-cowherd?NL=BEEF-01&Issue=BEEF-01_20160205_BEEF-01_773&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_1_b&utm_rid=CPG02000000657842&utm_campaign=7995&utm_medium=email&elq2=dd6a856406014301a0bcb97966e7320d

Sobering thought of what currently is...

5.Recognize that, if you cull all open and dry cows and a few more with other problems, about half or more will be gone by the time they reach six years of age.

is that the best it can be?
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:41 pm

MKeeney wrote:
http://beefmagazine.com/blog/13-things-consider-holistically-manage-your-cowherd?NL=BEEF-01&Issue=BEEF-01_20160205_BEEF-01_773&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_1_b&utm_rid=CPG02000000657842&utm_campaign=7995&utm_medium=email&elq2=dd6a856406014301a0bcb97966e7320d

Sobering thought of what currently  is...

5.Recognize that, if you cull all open and dry cows and a few more with other problems, about half or more will be gone by the time they reach six years of age.

is that the best it can be?

For every season, cull, cull, cull
Raise lots of heifers, cull, cull, cull
There is a time to calve, a time to feed
A time to cull, a short time to breed
A time to graze, a time to sell
Whenever in doubt it is the time to cull.
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Tom



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:35 pm

Our first Shoshone sired cows are only 4 year olds, but it appears that with truly maternal bred cattle, the fall out can be kept down to 20 - 30% by the time they are 6 years old. I am not sure most ranches in western Wyoming can keep 50% in the herd with main stream genetics, unless they have irrigated farm ground, so they can feed them up in the winter. There are quite a few strings of 20 to 50 head of open 2 year olds going through the sale barn every fall in Riverton.

I know Burke fairly well. He wanted to meet Larry, so I took him up to visit Larry, and we spent an afternoon. I think it was in 2012.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:16 am

Tom wrote:
Our first Shoshone sired cows are only 4 year olds, but it appears that with truly maternal bred cattle, the fall out can be kept down to 20 - 30% by the time they are 6 years old. I am not sure most ranches in western Wyoming can keep 50% in the herd with main stream genetics, unless they have irrigated farm ground, so they can feed them up in the winter.  There are quite a few strings of 20 to 50 head of open 2 year olds going through the  sale barn every fall in Riverton.

I know Burke fairly well. He wanted to meet Larry, so I took him up to visit Larry, and we spent an afternoon. I think it was in 2012.

there`s something very satisfying, maybe just consoling to know you got those two together, Tom...wish I could have listened in...Bob Church is another I wish Larry and others could have met...obviously, some of the outliers of the human population do some of us a lot more good than do the outliers of cattle population...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:18 pm

http://beefmagazine.com/blog/11-must-read-profitability-tips-burke-teichert?NL=BEEF-01&Issue=BEEF-01_20160311_BEEF-01_834&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_1_b&utm_rid=CPG02000000643974&utm_campaign=8645&utm_medium=email&elq2=a2786dbcf99448f483a5bfedd864cc7f

You can see that I have a certain disdain for purchasing bred heifers. Why? Because they have the two most difficult years of their lives immediately ahead of them. You are moving them to a new location and new management. There will be more fallout as a result of calf death loss (dry cows) and failure to rebreed in those years.

If you cull opens and dries, the probability of a six-year-old cow having four more calves is greater than the probability of a two-year-old having four more calves. And, if you are buying replacements, why do you want to calve heifers? If you want to calve heifers, you should make your own from your own cows or purchased heifer calves.


just too much common sense...make your heifers with the bulls you use...
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rross



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:11 pm

I had the opportunity to spend two days this week with B. Tiechert and other like minded people...........quite refreshing...... cheers
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:17 pm

Great article with lots of take home messages for those who would otherwise flounder around
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:18 am

when did frame score become a related measure of cow efficiency?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:12 am

[quote="rross"]I had the opportunity to spend two days this week with B. Tiechert and other like minded people...........quite refreshing...... cheers [/quote

Rod, where would Burke buy bulls today?
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:24 am

BT wrote:
Profit is usually enhanced by putting the pounds in more and smaller packages and then selling each pound for more money. Profit per acre is usually improved by increasing the stocking rate.
 
OK, small is good, Burt.  Do you raise lowlines or even better, ...sheep!  If not, then you do not believe what you write.

Improving stocking rate is fine but you omit that it takes increased infrastructure to make real world increased stocking rates work.  Increased infrastructure is OVERHEAD that you start off not liking.

BT wrote:
This comes from improving land productivity and/or changing the cow.
A little double talk here, Burt, if you have been studying up on soil health.  There are two directional ways to view a forage/animal system.  One is soil up and one is animal down.  Take your pick but don't mix.  Mixing is for tossed salads.

BT wrote:
True efficiency is total herd efficiency, not per-cow efficiency. True efficiency is measured by the total receipts from the herd and the direct cost of running the herd. Total sales receipts are driven by number of cows, number of calves or yearlings sold, how early in the calving season the calves were born, calf and yearling growth rates and the prices received for each class of animal sold.
Lot of fluff here, Burt.  You can sell a potload of dumpy little short dinks here that come off of the pastures like flies to a fresh pile or you can take a lot less medium sized quality calves to the same sale barn around here and either one will total the same cumulative dollars of the better sized calves might even bring more.  And it is NOT an issue of individual calf weight but of individual calf frame size. Same for cull cows sold by the pound or bred cows marketed for top prices.  Get a grip and move on to something real.  Or sell used cars, chinchillas, emus or something else besides worn talk of small is better unless you like coins instead of bills.
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:37 am

Burke is right about me, I don't have enough accounting sense to know my profitability.
What I do know is that when I stopped buying other people's cattle and left that money in my farm account, l've always had money in my farm account.

" There are two directional ways to view a forage/animal system. One is soil up and one is animal down."

I've been doing "animal down" for 10+ years.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:56 am

Quote :
I've been doing "animal down" for 10+ years.
I used to until I learned better.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:24 pm

EddieM wrote:
BT wrote:
Profit is usually enhanced by putting the pounds in more and smaller packages and then selling each pound for more money. Profit per acre is usually improved by increasing the stocking rate.
 
OK, small is good, Burt.  Do you raise lowlines or even better, ...sheep!  If not, then you do not believe what you write.

Improving stocking rate is fine but you omit that it takes increased infrastructure to make real world increased stocking rates work.  Increased infrastructure is OVERHEAD that you start off not liking.

BT wrote:
This comes from improving land productivity and/or changing the cow.
A little double talk here, Burt, if you have been studying up on soil health.  There are two directional ways to view a forage/animal system.  One is soil up and one is animal down.  Take your pick but don't mix.  Mixing is for tossed salads.

BT wrote:
True efficiency is total herd efficiency, not per-cow efficiency. True efficiency is measured by the total receipts from the herd and the direct cost of running the herd. Total sales receipts are driven by number of cows, number of calves or yearlings sold, how early in the calving season the calves were born, calf and yearling growth rates and the prices received for each class of animal sold.
Lot of fluff here, Burt.  You can sell a potload of dumpy little short dinks here that come off of the pastures like flies to a fresh pile or you can take a lot less medium sized quality calves to the same sale barn around here and either one will total the same cumulative dollars of the better sized calves might even bring more.  And it is NOT an issue of individual calf weight but of individual calf frame size.  Same for cull cows sold by the pound or bred cows marketed for top prices.  Get a grip and move on to something real.  Or sell used cars, chinchillas, emus or something else besides worn talk of small is better unless you like coins instead of bills.

I catch a little pharoneese in Burke`s comments, but not in the extreme you cast ...I would bet size is regulated more by feed and management than by pud genetics...and the recommended use of terminal bulls sure takes things way out of the Pharo context where "the puds do all things best"
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:27 pm

RobertMac wrote:
Burke is right about me, I don't have enough accounting sense to know my profitability.
What I do know is that when I stopped buying other people's cattle and left that money in my farm account, l've always had money in my farm account.

" There are two directional ways to view a forage/animal system.  One is soil up and one is animal down."

I've been doing "animal down" for 10+ years.

I check my bank account; too high a standard of living is more detrimental to bank balance than how much the cows eat...
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