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 oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...

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Tom



Posts : 25
Join date : 2010-10-09

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:19 am

Bob, our growing season on the lower country is usually mid April to mid June. The mountain is mid May to mid July.

We have changed our program quite a bit since I last posted. We have been calving 2 year olds since 2012. When calves went from $500 to $700 we figured that would by would buy some feed to develop a heifer calf and keep a 2yr old in shape.

This year the heifers should start calving the first week of April and the cows will start mid April. We moved to this in 2013. It seems to be working. the cows 3 and over have been breeding up at 96% to 98% and the 2yr olds have bred back at 90% to 92%. I think protein dropping is the biggest reason young cows and heifers are hard to breed in later August and September. Nearly all of the calves have been out of Shoshone bulls since 2012. We have been exposing all of the heifer calves for 30 to 35 days and have had conception rates of 75% to 84%.
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EddieM



Posts : 895
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:25 am

Bob wrote:
The problem lays in it takes time to get to the 3rd and 4th generations.

BINGO! It takes time and trials to see what fits and works. My experience is limited and bias but a 25% outcross bull or reintroduction of an AI bull works better than the original. There are a few exceptions. But somehow, the environment has to be woven into the background of animals for them to function properly. Best statement in weeks. You cannot buy immediate success in livestock breeding or win all of the lotteries.
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RobertMac



Posts : 377
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:01 pm

Bob H wrote:
What difference is there in the gene pool of one over the other if they do not have any out layer genes with in them. If there is no difference with in, then what I think happens is that a form will take shape for the environment with in which they are raised. So in my opinion if you just take off the ends the middle would develop into what ever environment that you created for them. As long as no new genetic material was introduced. In my 18 years of observation this has happened fairly quickly as soon as we got to a number of like genetic makeup. The problem lays in it takes time to get to the 3rd and 4th generations.
This is what I have been trying to get my mind around since I read that we calve earlier and give the seed stock more room. This is fine for a terminal product, but to move forward in the commercial producers environment and make maternal material. I think that it is very critical to duplicate what they have to help them be successful and move on being rancher.
Bob H

Raise your own maternal bulls closed herd; buy terminal bulls
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EddieM



Posts : 895
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:14 pm

MKeeney wrote:
"The principles of the successful breeder have been exceedingly simple.   He isolates and fixes a good type by careful selection and close breeding.....He brings inferior stock up by consistent use of prepotent sires of the SAME improved type.   The difficulty lies not so much in knowing the principles as in applying them."   Wrights Bulletin, 1920
 Perhaps the difficulty lies in man's persistant habit of trying to make his best, RATHER THAN THE REST, even better!!
Larry Leonhardt
Grape snowcones or lemonade or branded beef must taste the same each time to be successful , though some may like grape aid, if that is the blend you sell, better have pure stock and blend in the same proportion  every time...

I

Was Shoshone Bob, as a lower growth type bull (ice), a corrector type or just a dose of the same genes in a different package? How do we know when a lesser bull might not just be the more stabilizing type? Can we safely use a bull that others would question merely because he is part of the close genepool? I am trying to figure out if a weaned bull will turn out to be inferior, proponent, improved or best just on the sire, dam, half sibs and individual data. He should have the same potential as others but his proportions are a little lesser.
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Bob H



Posts : 372
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:24 pm

The reason that I think that it took 3 or 4 generations was not from trial and error. It took that long to get enough Shoshone influence in to stabilize the gene pool. We started to see improvement on the first cross on our cow herd in 2002 as it take 3 years to get a calf out of any progeny. We have been comfortable enough the last 3 years to use our own bulls back on these cows. Bob H
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:58 pm

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Mean Spirit



Posts : 321
Join date : 2010-09-26

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:33 am

By my count, only the Beefmaster breeder in the article is likely correct- there's a pretty good chance that he can use bulls by AI that will result in better carcasses and better performance. And it might make sense for him.

The numbers the AI folks push for cost of AI for commercial herds are hinky. $49.50 per cow for drugs. semen, labor? What about facilities and equipment? As my roommate in college who never learned how to cuss properly might say- "bull hell."

Regarding using AI to make better heifers. We've talked about this before- how is he finding AI bulls that he's confidant will make better heifers?

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Tom



Posts : 25
Join date : 2010-10-09

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:07 pm

Yesterday we sold some 4 to 6 year old bred cows for $1850 at the Riverton Livestock Auction. I prefer doing that to selling a heifer calf for $800 or $900.
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Grassfarmer



Posts : 847
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:33 pm

Tom what weight of heifer calf is bringing $800 or $900 in your area? I've lost track of US prices since our dollars went in opposite directions. I sold a few heifers on Monday that were straight Gelbvieh out of bought cows. They were March calves weaned just before Christmas. Weighed 746lbs and made $1391. With the current exchange rate that's only $967 US but still good money for raised in Canada calves!
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Tom



Posts : 25
Join date : 2010-10-09

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:35 pm

Grassy, I left the sale before the calves sold, but the market report was 500-550# heifers were $165, the 550-600 were $164. We don't have a scale, but I guess ours average about 525 now. They won't weigh 7 till summer time. I see 715# heifers were $140, but they only listed 6 head from 700 to 750. They sold over 200
5 wt heifers.
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MKeeney
Admin


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Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:04 am

a story that seems to fit here...the source is a little different Smile

“What I want to think about is how efficiency affects profit,” Leachman says, defining it as “profit per acre.”

The mentality should shift from being locked in as certain-sized operation toward how much dry matter is available per acre.

“We need to get away from thinking about it as a certain number of cows,” he adds. “We need to start asking ‘What is the most efficient way to harvest that forage’ and ‘what do I want that cow to look like?’”

Chasing trends such as excess milk and growth have negatively impacted the profitability per acre for cattle producers on range pasture, he says.

Another difficulty in solving the feed efficiency equation is the trend of increasing carcass weights. As carcass weights go up, it drags minimum cow size up with it, Leachman says. Despite the trend, cattle producers should be aiming to raise replacement females that can wean a calf that will feed out to a larger size than she is on grass.

“If you’ve got a cow that weighs more than the slaughter weight of your steers, you’ve got a real problem,” Leachman adds.

Slightly smaller cows that are more efficient with calves that can perform should be the ultimate goal. “The efficiency makes a bigger change, plus it has less antagonism on the carcass weight,” Leachman says.


http://www.agweb.com/article/efficient-cows-profitable-calves-naa-wyatt-bechtel/
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Bob H



Posts : 372
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:20 pm

What a story about efficiency on a cow outfit. And a quote from Marc on cross breeding compared to cross bred registered stock. I wonder what would happen if they used true lines of cattle in their comparison and true f1 crosses what a novel idea. Like using Shoshone cows with Eaton Charalios bulls. This was ground breaking in the late 60's. What I never read was how to keep from getting a crossbred mess. Bob H
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RobertMac



Posts : 377
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:44 pm

Bob, ever thought of using a Lents Hereford to make your F1 production cows? The F1 steers should finish well on grass.

The meat you are producing is something to be proud of!
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Bob H



Posts : 372
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:50 pm

There are several reasons that we do not use Hereford. One is the ability to get a white face and white udder both can cause problems. The next is we are trying to add 100lbs of carcass weight and they will have a tougher time with this. When we use white bulls the udder and the eyes always have pigment. Bob H
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EddieM



Posts : 895
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:18 pm

RobertMac wrote:
Bob, ever thought of using a Lents Hereford to make your F1 production cows? The F1 steers should finish well on grass.

The meat you are producing is something to be proud of!

RobertMac,
Have you ever thought of using a Lents Hereford? Laughing Question
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RobertMac



Posts : 377
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:28 pm

Don't you think Jim and his predecessors addressed these problems over the 100+ years the herd has been closed?

I understand the use of the Char for weight, but leaving them bulls, like l do, will get almost that amount. I was looking at the grassfed premium! Jim told me his rounds were as tender as ribeye steaks from conventional.

Was just a thought...
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RobertMac



Posts : 377
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:31 pm

EddieM wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
Bob, ever thought of using a Lents Hereford to make your F1 production cows? The F1 steers should finish well on grass.

The meat you are producing is something to be proud of!

RobertMac,
Have you ever thought of using a Lents Hereford? Laughing Question

Yes I have.
If I hadn't had my pasture base cut by 2/3 a few years ago, I would be using some in a program similar to Bob's.
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Danny Miller



Posts : 37
Join date : 2010-11-11
Age : 59
Location : KY

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:45 pm

Bob H wrote:
What a story about efficiency on a cow outfit. And a quote from Marc on cross breeding compared to cross bred registered stock. I wonder what would happen if they used true lines of cattle in their comparison and true f1 crosses what a novel idea. Like using Shoshone cows with Eaton Charalios bulls. This was ground breaking in the late 60's. What I never read was how to keep from getting a crossbred mess. Bob H

Bob, I used Mike's close bred Ole "Pete" on a group of my line bred Herefords and the cross was amazing, calves are really growing. Sold several as fall pairs but still have several to watch grow.
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MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4605
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:49 pm

RobertMac wrote:
Don't you think Jim and his predecessors addressed these problems over the 100+ years the herd has been closed?


with what ?
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MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4605
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:50 pm

Danny Miller wrote:
Bob H wrote:
What a story about efficiency on a cow outfit. And a quote from Marc on cross breeding compared to cross bred registered stock. I wonder what would happen if they used true lines of cattle in their comparison and true f1 crosses what a novel idea. Like using Shoshone cows with Eaton Charalios bulls. This was ground breaking in the late 60's. What I never read was how to keep from getting a crossbred mess. Bob H

Bob, I used Mike's close bred Ole "Pete" on a group of my line bred Herefords and the cross was amazing, calves are really growing. Sold several as fall pairs but still have several to watch grow.

I`ll buy the heifer calves !!
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Danny Miller



Posts : 37
Join date : 2010-11-11
Age : 59
Location : KY

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:57 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Danny Miller wrote:
Bob H wrote:
What a story about efficiency on a cow outfit. And a quote from Marc on cross breeding compared to cross bred registered stock. I wonder what would happen if they used true lines of cattle in their comparison and true f1 crosses what a novel idea. Like using Shoshone cows with Eaton Charalios bulls. This was ground breaking in the late 60's. What I never read was how to keep from getting a crossbred mess. Bob H

Bob, I used Mike's close bred Ole "Pete" on a group of my line bred Herefords and the cross was amazing, calves are really growing. Sold several as fall pairs but still have several to watch grow.

I`ll buy the heifer calves !!

There are some nice one's Mike. There were a few that went with some young cows I sold to a young man to get him started...Could probably trade with him to get them back.
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MKeeney
Admin


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Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:26 pm

Another fun experiment. ..match those cross heifers against the straight tru-lines...I'll give steer price if either of you interested
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Bob H



Posts : 372
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:56 am

I have two questions.

1 is how do you fix white eyes and white udders.

2 is did I understand that you do not cut the bulls and use them in a grass fed program. Bob H
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rross



Posts : 39
Join date : 2010-09-24

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:48 am

There are still a fair # of Herefords around here.........surviving on fresh air and scenery(white salt and snow)...........using home raised bulls, with the only selection criteria being, the biggest being the best.


If the conditions warrant, dark pigmented udders will sunburn and become as sore as a white bagged cow....... Calve later
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RobertMac



Posts : 377
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:39 pm

Bob H wrote:
I have two questions.

1 is how do you fix white eyes and white udders.
Do all Herefords have problems from white eyes and white udders?

2 is did I understand that you do not cut the bulls and use them in a grass fed program. Bob H

Yes
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