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 oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...

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Grassfarmer



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Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:02 pm

I get his point about dry cows being costly but don't follow his logic on the depreciation. He says a cow appreciates until 4, then holds its own until 6 then depreciates beyond that. I guess it depends what the spread is between cull price and bred price. I'd argue that often that price difference is not great enough to warrant selling 6 year old cows versus keeping them in the herd.

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LCP



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:32 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
I get his point about dry cows being costly but don't follow his logic on the depreciation. He says a cow appreciates until 4, then holds its own until 6 then depreciates beyond that. I guess it depends what the spread is between cull price and bred price. I'd argue that often that price difference is not great enough to warrant selling 6 year old cows versus keeping them in the herd.


I think he's talking about the difference in market value of different aged cows.  The calf has to cover the cash costs to run the cow for the year, plus cover any decline in value of the cow.  Until age 5 or 6, she has not lost much if any value.  Every year beyond that, she goes down in value.  The calf has to cover that.  From a profitability standpoint, it would be better to sell cows before that starts to happen.  Then buy them back at 9 or 10 when the are fully depreciated if you want.  The guy who buys those 4-6 yr old cows and runs them until 10 is taking an awful beating on depreciation.

I don't really like this approach, because I think longevity is important.  But it's hard to argue on the dollars and cents aspect. I've heard it said that its OK to own old cows, but it isn't very profitable to make old cows.  Better off letting someone else pay that depreciation, then buy them back if so desired.

I don't know how he keeps this writing gig...seems to fly in the face of about 90% of the other stuff in that publication.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:49 am

Don't know if its more of an American thing but how many people sell their 6 year old cows? Don't know anyone here that regularly sells cows at this age other than in herd dispersals. To me that is the heart of your herd and the cows that get to 6 successfully are likely to stay in the herd until 10 with minimal drop out compared to your younger or older ages. So you say the guys buying 6 year old cows take a beating on depreciation but isn't that the trade off for reduced drop-out rates and good performance?
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:57 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
Don't know if its more of an American thing but how many people sell their 6 year old cows? Don't know anyone here that regularly sells cows at this age other than in herd dispersals. To me that is the heart of your herd and the cows that get to 6 successfully are likely to stay in the herd until 10 with minimal drop out compared to your younger or older ages. So you say the guys buying 6 year old cows take a beating on depreciation but isn't that the trade off for reduced drop-out rates and good performance?
If feed is the #1 cost and fertility is some multiple valve of weaning weight in value, then why not drop feed cost, breed for fertility which should increase the age of the average cow in the herd, make more money on the front end by selling more heifers in the present year and then risk losing some money on the back end? Raise your own bulls and cut that cost. Teeth are not an issue here. Is that his limiting factor at 6, too? Buying in is a health risk, too. Seems to be more of a fill in the blank business concept than a population management concept.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:59 am

Quote :
I don't know how he keeps this writing gig...seems to fly in the face of about 90% of the other stuff in that publication.
Maybe the average person does not read the publication. Maybe the purpose of most ag literature is to sell ads and advertise sales. Bell rings, dog eats.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:04 pm

maybe not his most clear writing as I saw the points a little different; didn't see a recommendation/idea of selling 6yrold cows etc....but better than the tiring Harlan Hughes stuff ,the "can`t afford to raise your own heifers, so buy someone elses???" why can they raise them cheaper than you, and they surely can`t raise better ones...

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LCP



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:28 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
Don't know if its more of an American thing but how many people sell their 6 year old cows? Don't know anyone here that regularly sells cows at this age other than in herd dispersals. To me that is the heart of your herd and the cows that get to 6 successfully are likely to stay in the herd until 10 with minimal drop out compared to your younger or older ages. So you say the guys buying 6 year old cows take a beating on depreciation but isn't that the trade off for reduced drop-out rates and good performance?

I don't think it is the norm for producers to sell at that age either. I don't do it, but I've sure given it some thought and can't say I have a good reason for not doing it.

I'm unsure about the fallout being less with those 6-10 yr old cows than 3-5 yr olds. That's just a gut feeling, I can't say I've ever really looked at our numbers before. It would have to be significant enough to justify the depreciation expense, which in our herd I don't think is the case.
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Tom



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:13 am

If everybody sold young bred cows, young bred cows wouldn't sell high. They tend to be over priced because not many sell a cow till she is old or open. I think many producers who purchase replacements, prefer a to buy a young cow, than a bred heifer.

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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:00 am

That was refreshing to read. We have started to do this with a percentage of our cows more for tax reasons than any thing else started it. In Idaho we can be taxed up to 38% or more on regular income but are taxed only 18% on capitol gains which is what bred cows or pairs are. It does not take Einstein to do this math. Using this we decided that we would breed anything that would breed.
If we need more income sell bred stuff if we don't, we have a the cow habit bad we may just lease another ranch. ha ha Seriously Pam and I have the goal to help as many people as we can find a relationship with Christ. You cannot do this setting on the couch waiting to die. Pam is stating all the time that they are his cows any way.

We breed the heifers for 50 days and just keep the ones that calve in 30 and sell the rest as pairs. As far as heifer development we leave them with the yearling cattle on pasture until March when we start grazing desert pasture with them.

We do not identify an age group of cows as much as a calving group. We always sell all cows that do not have a calf as soon as we locate them, as around here if you don't bring in a check you are a check.

Another thing an old time cow guy once told me was the last thing to go down in a cattle cycle is stock cows and the last thing to go up in the next cycle is stock cows.

The one thing that jumped out at me was the thought about using new genetics in his bull battery. I think that in my lifetime using multiple sires out of line-bred parents back on their daughters will be more than good enough for maternal material. Why would I contaminate what I have for the dream of some thing better?

enough said
Bob H
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:16 am

Tom wrote:
If everybody sold young bred cows, young bred cows wouldn't sell high. They tend to be over priced because not many sell a cow till she is old or open. I think many producers who purchase replacements, prefer a to buy a young cow, than a bred heifer.  


been a while since you posted Tom, in looking for identity, I found some previous nuggets that fit well here...

http://www.keeneyscorner.com/t58-productivity
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:33 pm

I got a definition problem. Whats he calling a dry cow? is he just talking about those few cows that pass preg check but fail to actually calf? Cause by my definition all cows are dry part of the year, unless I couldn't get that last calf weaned.
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sun Jan 10, 2016 3:09 pm

The big stations generally cast their cows for age at 9. We on the other hand see cows at 9 as in their prime if they have made it thus far - by then we have a really good understanding and record of what calves they have had, what their daughters are doing, and their is real predictability as to what type of bull works the best over them. There are no tax advantages in NZ or depreciation on cows - they are either in the herd or they are in the "income from cattle" column on the balance sheet. We only cull for age when the cow is plainly not up to it and unlikely to last another winter with dignity. Better to go on a truck than die slowly in a gully - when they are out on the hills we do not go near them until we want them to come in pre-calving.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sun Jan 10, 2016 4:48 pm

Mean Spirit wrote:
I got a definition problem. Whats he calling a dry cow? is he just talking about those few cows that pass preg check but fail to actually calf? Cause by my definition all cows are dry part of the year, unless I couldn't get that last calf weaned.

It will be any cow not weaning a calf eg lost calf at birth or later presumably.

The family that developed the Luing breed sold an annual draft of their 10 year old cows for many years. As with conditions in NZ, in Scotland there is a significant difference by moving things off the hills onto much kinder environments. This gave new breeders an excellent group of proven genetics to start a herd with. Not commonly done on commercial operations though.
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:08 pm

Yes I should have been more specific - tradtionally there have been huge sale yardings of cast for age cows up the East Coast - giving the opportunity for farmers from kinder, lower, country to buy proven cows - sadly the swing away from beef cows in favour of bull beef and other trading cattle and the land grab by dairy has seen most of the cows being recently bought by works buyers. Another drought predicted for the East Coast will not see a demand for cows of any variety - much less ewes - we are sending 600 5 year olds to the sale on Thursday - have a very bad feeling - raining here today (and yesterday) but we were further north yesterday - 30 deg Celsius and a very strong hot wind - not ideal grass growing / saving conditions ................................. as far as I know they did not get any of our rain .............. at all.
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:16 pm

I am sorry a dry is a cow that has no calf to wean. As far as easy access sometimes we wait until we are around a corral but as soon as it becomes available we part them off. The point is that we are in the cattle business only and with that said it is a business if you don't produce you can't stay. Bob H
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:45 pm

I read Toms post from before and that sounds like a dilemma about the heifer calves. What came to my mind was that it was about green growing day formula whether you had to wait two years or supplement the Heifer calves one winter. Green grass is the best supplement ever but if you only have it for 60 to 90 days a year it is hard to replace.

Tom what is the length your growing season?

We had a fine couple of young men who were trying to change their calving until June in this dry climate that we live in. I visited with one of them a few days ago and he said that he found what we had found that there was not enough energy left in the feed to get their cows rebred. Bob H
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:25 am

I quite reading the experts because I'm not smart enough to understand their thinking.

I started making a profit when I quit buying and only sold cattle. Keep herd numbers the same, profit becomes a function of efficiency of production and reproduction.

I agree with Burke on leaving the bulls in. I take the bulls out right before calving starts and put them back in when I want calving to start. What doesn't calve in my season gets sold mostly as breds.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:39 pm

Megan wrote:
we have a really good understanding and record of what calves they have had, what their daughters are doing, and their is real predictability as to what type of bull works the best over them

if the cows are the same type, bred for the same purpose, why won`t the same bull work over all the herd females?
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:48 pm

You will be the first to admit that variation exists even in the closest of closest bred animals - they are all alike, they all do the same job, as well as each other (or they are not here) but there are small differences in frame size, temperament and conformation. Better to use a bull that complements them best than one that does not would you not agree? Having said that we mated in mobs of up to 45 so there are plenty alike which match each bull.

Trying to decide whether it wants to rain or not - we are trying to decide whether to get the weaned white faced lambs into the yards to sex draft and then shed up for shearing tomorrow - would not be the first time (possibly might be the last though .....) where we have rushed and raced, growled and barked at each other, got the job done in the yards just in time for a cloud burst - lambs do not run easily into the shed and if it is starting to rain they get even more obstinate ............... or that is how it seems anyway - maybe it is just my general view of sheep lol!
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:57 pm

This was a discussion Larry had with several members here...do you bring traits to the desired level (up or down) by the use of difference (fire and ice) or by the continous and repeated use of the ideal?
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:31 pm

MKeeney wrote:
This was a discussion Larry had with several  members here...do you bring traits to the desired level (up or down) by the use of difference (fire and ice) or by the continous and repeated  use of the ideal?
That is a breeding question. It is not a sales question.

There are not a lot of successful restaurants that sell one item without an option or two. Hot dog stands even give you options. Snowcones have flavors. Maybe a lemonade stand is a shining example of one product sales. I truly understand a line of livestock bred for a purpose(s). But that is not a means to control buyers or society unless you either dictate the societal controls of no auctions, no price variations, everybody wear the same clothes, have the same hair cut and ride the same bicycle. Aren't we discussing something in marketing close to communism and socialism when types of sales are criticized?
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:17 pm

Each breeder has an ideal...does crossing two wrongs make a right? So fire and ice creates breeding animals?
I tend to agree...the cross bred bull simply the more extreme extension  means of  corrective mating..
Didn't think sales were a part of this topic, but if we want to drift, no problem...in that regard,
If one is going to change the game, you must quit playing the game...I recommend a movie..
Margin Call
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:21 am

No fire and ice here Mike - the animals are not that different - just subtle little things that one bull will either smooth over or exaggerate. Both positive traits and slight faults treated with the same thought. Lambs shedded - obstinate little hu's made even getting them to the shed a challenge - and yes they are ever so slightly damp - hoping warm night temps and a good draught through the shed will avoid the shearing gang throwing their toys ............
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:53 am

"The principles of the successful breeder have been exceedingly simple.   He isolates and fixes a good type by careful selection and close breeding.....He brings inferior stock up by consistent use of prepotent sires of the SAME improved type.   The difficulty lies not so much in knowing the principles as in applying them."   Wrights Bulletin, 1920
 Perhaps the difficulty lies in man's persistant habit of trying to make his best, RATHER THAN THE REST, even better!!
Larry Leonhardt
Grape snowcones or lemonade or branded beef must taste the same each time to be successful , though some may like grape aid, if that is the blend you sell, better have pure stock and blend in the same proportion  every time...

I
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:10 am

What difference is there in the gene pool of one over the other if they do not have any out layer genes with in them. If there is no difference with in, then what I think happens is that a form will take shape for the environment with in which they are raised. So in my opinion if you just take off the ends the middle would develop into what ever environment that you created for them. As long as no new genetic material was introduced. In my 18 years of observation this has happened fairly quickly as soon as we got to a number of like genetic makeup. The problem lays in it takes time to get to the 3rd and 4th generations.
This is what I have been trying to get my mind around since I read that we calve earlier and give the seed stock more room. This is fine for a terminal product, but to move forward in the commercial producers environment and make maternal material. I think that it is very critical to duplicate what they have to help them be successful and move on being rancher.
Bob H
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