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MKeeney
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PostSubject: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:43 am

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:52 am

http://beefmagazine.com/blog/6-steps-low-input-cow-herd-feeding?NL=BEEF-01&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_1&utm_rid=CPG02000000643974&utm_campaign=3306&utm_medium=email

highlights

Meanwhile, a heifer with a BCS 5 will be healthy, but you can’t expect the same breed back as you would if she were in BCS 6. Remember, in addition to taking care of her calf, that heifer is still growing; thus, rebreeding is a lower priority for her system.

If you must supplement or even full-feed your cows for a time to maintain these body conditions, you should be willing to do that. However, if that type of feeding is the rule rather than the exception, you might ask if you have the right enterprise for your environment, the right calving season, or if your cows really fit your environment. You must remember that you have a lot of fellow ranchers (competitors in a way) who aren’t feeding their cows.
So, here are my six recommended steps for feeding cows:
1.Decide if it’s economically feasible to winter cows in your area.
2.Reduce haying, thus making more winter graze available.
3.Lengthen the grazing season until you perhaps graze all winter.
4.Pay close attention to the younger animals. They should be grazed separately from mature cows and usually require more supplement than the cows and perhaps need some “fed” feed.
5.Cull any cow that doesn’t fit or adapt to your new management.
6.Buy the right bulls.
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:05 am

Ha - just found this - wasn't even referring to it when commenting about Kiwi's throwing their poor heifers to the wolves and wondering why the vet is shaking his head all the way down the race at preg test time.
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:22 am

yes, it seems not only is grass growing/management more important to profitability than genetics, but so is a practical level of cattle management...
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:22 am

http://beefmagazine.com/blog/can-ranching-be-sustainable-without-profits-burke-teichert-says-no?NL=BEEF-01&Issue=BEEF-01_20150605_BEEF-01_348&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_1&utm_rid=CPG02000000643974&utm_campaign=4307&utm_medium=email&elq2=ee8f9e759f7246f780bd0199637c4c97

I talked about “Keys to Successful Ranch Businesses” and indicated that successful ranch businesses are:
•Economically viable—profitable
•Ecologically sound and sustainable
•Socially responsible

always a treat to read some common sense instead of the Marshall plan of registered promotions...sold my steers yesterday; 864 @213.50...I would expect  those using terminal cattle to do better; I will find out someday with 80 fall cows bred Limmy...the current steers are just the tail end by products of maternal selection...
worked calves the last few days; they now have a number to add to their name KA so now they have a pedigree; example KA 34...couldn`t be happier with the results in the field; but for those needing results on paper to reassure them probably will need a different bull supplier...

“the sole purpose of "TruLine" is educational, a conceptual and realistic direction towards harnessing hybrid power.....a cohesive effort is required to describe the practical and potential merits of stabilized populations.”

I never quite come to grasp TruLine as merely educational and conceptual as Larry noted...what good is either without application? My application of truline is sustainable on a commercial basis; maybe some will find merit in seedstock from such application...in response to Kendra`s comment below, my application with take on more self and less selfless in the future; and the future is now  Smile

No mention of the intent of education being for profit, status, or other self promotion. SELF or SELFLESS has clearly shifted our culture’s definition of successful results, from a “qualitative to a quantitative” sense. Our need for immediate results demands that we find, create, or manipulate data to use as proof that we have the very same qualitative results that we weren’t willing to commit to because of the extensive amount TIME required. Thus…. the introduction and dependence upon Marketing. Kendra


...learning a new camera; does too many things I don`t need or either can`t learn...
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:56 am

oh gee, the only mention of genetics was to utilize heterosis...

http://beefmagazine.com/blog/burke-teichert-five-foundational-ideas-successful-ranch
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:48 pm

http://beefmagazine.com/blog/burke-teichert-are-you-low-input-high-management-rancher#comment-282471

thought I would see who reads Burke...there`s a guru around every corner...
http://www.naturalcattlehandling.com/


mike keeney

on Aug 14, 2015


Contrary to some promoters; beef production does not end at weaning; thanks for saying so.
Are we sure it is not an over-generalization comparing cows on size alone; I`ve seen a lot of small poor cows; plenty of good bigger cows; I believe type to be more important than size.
Can the small cow deliver the calf of the terminal bull that compliments her for feedlot acceptance?
Always enjoy your articles; though I be a farmer-breeder, not a rancher.
Mike Keeney
reply
Bob Kinford

on Aug 14, 2015
Mr Keeney,
There is no over generalization. Bigger cows eat more grass, and their calves eat more grass before they are weaned, and that adds up fast. You can raise 178 cows weighing 1,000 pounds for roughly the same amount as it does to raise 100 cows weighing 1,500 pounds yet wind up selling 10,000 pounds or more weaned calves than using larger cows.

In the feedlot sector, those bigger calves not only consume more feed per day, they take more days to reach their finish weight than their smaller counterparts.

The packers are the ONLY segment of the industry benefiting from the larger cattle. It costs them roughly the same amount to kill and halve the bigger cattle as it does the smaller ones.
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mike keeney

on Aug 14, 2015
so 178,000 lbs of small cows eat the same as 150,000 lbs of larger cows. ??? that is the inverse relationship of any research I have ever read...where do your figures come from?
edit
reply

surprise;surprise
one of pages linked to farao
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:23 pm

Hope I can sleep tonight: anxious for the answer of reverse energy balance.
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:24 am

EddieM wrote:
Hope I can sleep tonight: anxious for the answer of reverse energy balance.

not only to these farao philosophy cattle not need any feed; they need no fence either....after kinford trains them...no more cows in the corn Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:13 pm

Too many of our modern-day cattle have become input dependent. They can’t breed as yearlings and rebreed each year without significant use of fed feed and supplements. This does not have to be. Cattle can be developed to breed as yearlings in a short breeding season with minimal development. The same cattle can also be expected to rebreed in short breeding seasons each year thereafter.  

For profitability, nothing is more important on a ranch than reproduction and calf survivability.  This must be done on low inputs—grazing all or most of the year with hay feeding only in times of deep snow or prolonged severe cold; strategic supplementation of protein and minerals only to correct nutritional deficiencies and using very little labor for individual animal attention. This implies that selection pressure will be used for natural bred-in fertility, calf health and resistance to flies and parasites. Therefore, you will settle for less-than-maximum growth rate and carcass quality. However, they can be very acceptable for your area and management.

http://beefmagazine.com/blog/burke-teichert-shares-secrets-profitable-cow?NL=BEEF-01&Issue=BEEF-01_20150911_BEEF-01_104&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_1&utm_rid=CPG02000000643974&utm_campaign=5921&utm_medium=email&elq2=07fbc31d040b4616b4c60be7f688169c

http://www.ultrabeef.com/BEEF.html



might have taken Burke`s advice a little too far... Smile
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:07 pm

just the best advice one can get...worth reading over and over...and applying everyday


Do You Want Progress Or Change In Cattle Breeding?

In my lifelong learning, I’ve relied on many sources but the most meaningful help has come from two of them:

• Experts from the academic world who have the confidence of their peers and their students, have learned to work and communicate effectively with farmers and ranchers, and whose work addresses economically important questions.

• Farmers and ranchers who are possibility thinkers, pay attention to the science, learn from each other, want to know the truth and adopt practices and careful decisions that make them more profitable.

It is from this perspective (paying attention to the science and observing the practices of profitable commercial ranchers) that I make the following observations on cattle breeding and the way we select and cull.

• Years of observation suggest that the most profitable ranches have cow herds that are at, or just slightly above, average for most economically important traits. The most profitable herds also have lower-than-average milk production. Trying to push a herd beyond average for an environment usually comes with a cost in feed or stocking rate.

• There are many genetic antagonisms (unintended consequences) which can vary from almost imperceptible at first to fairly significant.

• We can make rapid genetic change, but it doesn’t always yield economic progress. Looking at the dairy industry as an example, we see that, if you select primarily for milk, you will get lots of milk. You will also get significant inbreeding as a result of extensive use of artificial insemination (AI) to closely related sires, poor fertility, poor survivability, many health issues and lots of cost. To a lesser extent, I think that focused selection in beef cattle for high growth and carcass grade has yielded some of the same effects.

• Please understand that EPDs and genomically enhanced EPDs work, but too many people have used EPDs as a tool to strive for “maximums.” Maximum is seldom, if ever, the most profitable course.

Improvement carries a cost

Most improvement in performance comes with a cost. Often, that cost is in the reduction of performance in another trait, a reduction in stocking rate, or higher feed costs, each of which can take several years to become obvious. We need to be sure the added revenue is greater than the added cost.
• The use of AI, embryo transfer and today’s genomically enhanced EPDs, without great care, can lead to a significant increase in inbreeding for the most popular breeds.

• If cell division to form egg and sperm happened for each gene pair individually, I would not have so much concern. But cells divide a chromosome at a time, which means that to get the good stuff on a particular chromosome, you will also have to take whatever else happens to be on that chromosome – the possible antagonisms.

• The relatively new study of “epigenetics” suggests that environmental factors may turn genes on or off. I think one might further suppose that environmental factors can reduce, enhance or even modify the effect of genes. Genes also have effects on each other – most of which are unknown and unmeasured. That’s just the way complex systems work.

• Many geneticists and a number of seedstock breeders are promoting the use of selection indices. The index becomes a composite of the “economically relevant traits.”

In putting the index together, each trait receives a weighting based on heritability and economic importance. From environment to environment, the relationship of heritability from trait to trait is seldom the same (though it may be close). The relative economic importance of each trait can also vary from place to place and from time to time. There is just enough skeptic in me (I call it being careful) to wonder if the economic weighting for each trait in the index was done correctly for my objectives.

Being a “systems thinker,” considering the forgoing observations and recognizing that the use of EPDs can move us toward or away from our profit objectives, I want to suggest the following combination of management and genetics as a method of herd improvement:
• Cull cows that aren’t doing what you want them to do. Don’t expect careful culling to be a big genetic trend changer. It won’t be. But, it will keep your herd cleaned up, functional and easy to manage. It will help you avoid keeping offspring from the poorest few. I have noticed that, when culling for unacceptable disposition or performance, you only have to remove a few each year to keep problems at a low level and to make life easier and much more enjoyable.

• Use low-cost development and a very short breeding season for yearling heifers, exposing significantly more than will be needed. If you start with heifers that can be developed at a low cost and get pregnant in less than 30 days, you will have better cows raising better calves and with better rebreeding rates. Naturally you will sort off the real misfits before breeding.
.

More management than genetics »

This is more management than genetics, but it will give much quicker bottom-line results. This is written from the perspective of one who produces his own replacement heifers. However, if your better alternative is to buy bred cows, you should try to find a producer who comes close to following these recommendations for your source of bred cows.




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You must depend on your seedstock provider(s) to make most of the genetic changes you desire in your herd. I want my bull provider to:
• Judiciously use the genetic tools at his disposal.

• Produce and help me select bulls that will produce good mother cows – moderate in size and milk production, and that will work in my environment and with my management. He needs to be a low-cost, low input operator with his cowherd. Since I don’t pamper my cows, I don’t want him to pamper his. Sure, I want good steer calves, but I want mother cows first. A good mother will usually produce an acceptable steer and do it with low cost.

• Keep accurate individual records and report 100% of the records to his breed association. I don’t like the problems or inferior performance to be excluded from the records.

• Help me maintain a reasonable level of heterosis in my herd (somewhere between 65 and 80% of maximum or F1 heterosis). This means I will either need more than one seedstock supplier or the chosen supplier will be able to provide genetics from at least three breeds.

• Not follow popular fads without good justification.

• Be satisfied with slow, sustained, balanced progress. Many years of watching has shown that, when you try to move one trait too far or too fast, you usually give up something else that is good. Balance is very important.

• Beware of, and be honest about, genetic antagonisms as they manifest themselves. While I’m sure I’ve observed many cases of bigger mature size and higher milk being negatively correlated with reproduction, I also see a negative correlation with stocking rate, which is not a genetic correlation. This kind of relationship between a genetic trait and a non-genetic effect needs to be considered.

We have great tools; but, because of genetic and environmental antagonisms, I think we need to be satisfied with slow change in a balanced approach – maintaining or slowly improving genetics for cowherd productivity. Any genetic change that results in more feed cost, a reduction in stocking rate, or a reduction in reproduction should be questioned

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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:40 am

Singing from the same hymn book as me - the tune will not always be exactly the same but the song is
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:43 am

The mainstream can`t even hummm a verse; let alone sing one...

Years of observation suggest that the most profitable ranches have cow herds that are at, or just slightly above, average for most economically important traits. The most profitable herds also have lower-than-average milk production.


I tend to think there is too much milk in cows here...but what is average? average determined by what measure? I believe breed wide "epds" for milk could be very mis-leading...and a poor guide when buying a bull...
it all points to developing your own females from the herd and using your own bulls to do it...

I think we need to be satisfied with slow change in a balanced approach

if it ain`t broke, don`t fix it; just tweak it...

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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:13 am

Cattle pundits should be required to define "improvement" before they use it.

Being happy with average doesn't require "improvement".
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sat Oct 03, 2015 7:46 am

RobertMac wrote:
Cattle pundits should be required to define "improvement" before they use it.

Being happy with average doesn't require "improvement".

I am happy to observe that my Beefmaster females are "below average" for milk...optimum is not just improvement; it is perfection...
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:46 pm

Since Burke wants data and Megan is meticulous about it, I thought I best record this pair for future reference...seems about an optimum cow here; less milk {judging on appearance} than several...



this is all I need; those who need more will have to buy elsewhere...
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sat Oct 03, 2015 3:52 pm

Did you take their numbers as well as their pictures? Laughing That is a very nice cow in anyone's language surely. She ticks lots of my boxes at least. Very Happy Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:57 pm

pukerimu wrote:
Did you take their numbers as well as their pictures? Laughing That is a very nice cow in anyone's language surely.  She ticks lots of my boxes at least. Very Happy Very Happy

I had hoped the numbers would show up; that`s why I wanted the calf looking at me {crummy pic}...but alas, no luck...but talk about in depth data, the sire groups, multiple sires in most, are color coded this year... cheers
so the records will be as long lived as the tags Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:27 pm

MKeeney wrote:
pukerimu wrote:
Did you take their numbers as well as their pictures? Laughing That is a very nice cow in anyone's language surely.  She ticks lots of my boxes at least. Very Happy Very Happy

I had hoped the numbers would show up; that`s why I wanted the calf looking at me {crummy pic}...but alas, no luck...but talk about in depth data, the sire groups, multiple sires in most, are color coded this year... cheers
so the records will be as long lived as the tags Rolling Eyes

What is that pair/bull bred for? They both seem to carry more thickness than the base model for maternal. Maybe this is the Super Custom Deluxe XL model?
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:22 am

Eddie,
same maternal purpose, selection, and pedigree...just the natural variation thereof that I think might suit Burke and Megan better...and might tweak the milk a bit
would she be a better cow if her numbers were bw 0, yw 100, milk 30 Question

I`ll ask another I can answer...how could I improve her calf weight relative to her own ?

a Charolais bull Smile

edit...oh the secret ingredients in the cow...grass, grass, grass cheers
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:12 am

MKeeney wrote:
Since Burke wants data and Megan is meticulous about it, I thought I best record this pair for future reference...seems about an optimum cow here; less milk {judging on appearance} than several...



this is all I need; those who need more will have to buy elsewhere...

If that is average, I'm sure you're happy. cheers
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:18 pm

MKeeney wrote:

edit...oh the secret ingredients in the cow...grass, grass, grass cheers

Isn't that the secret of genetics? lol! lol!
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:11 pm

average is the new top 1 % Smile
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outsidethebox



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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:41 pm

MKeeney wrote:
average is the new top 1 %  Smile

Very Happy Very Happy cheers king
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PostSubject: Re: oh no Burke, say it ain`t so...   Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:22 pm

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