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 A different view

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EddieM



Posts : 648
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: A different view   Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:30 am

MK wrote:
...the top bull brings about 5 times or more the sale average...3 times the average might just indicate ignorant, exuberant buyers...
I would agree if the population was closed, if you are discussing single sire groups or the IBC was common and high enough on all of the animals. But with a mix of sires, a mix of maternal grand sires and such there should be good, better and best and the trained eye of a cattleman would think that they could pick the divisions. When a picture of a cow or bull is posted here there is the understanding that the individual animal has some reason to be singled out: eye of the photographer. And if the financial principle is even pricing then even a dollar more or 1.1 times more would be bad?

If a pen had a set of proven sires and one was much more useful that the peers, should there be a price difference? Is the heart of the issue $/predictability or $/generic individual?

And the question on the weights: These weights are a combination of several growth periods for the animals. The WW would be a balancing point where % breed back would be an indicator that the WWs have entered a terminal area. But does the weight after a period of growth and feeding beyond weaning also equate to terminal or ability to grow as an individual? The question I would have to ask Megan would be, "Would you be willing to use any of these bulls back in your herd and expect to be satisfied with the calves and results?"

All said, I do not think that buying young bulls and thinking that they will surely destined to be great or will breed as predictable as proven sires is neither smart nor will even be sifted to perfection by Pat's gene testing. You will have better odds of finding that next Jock, maybe, but you never really know what happens in a book until you read the final chapter.
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RobertMac



Posts : 262
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: A different view   Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:50 pm

EddieM wrote:
"Would you be willing to use any of these bulls back in your herd and expect to be satisfied with the calves and results?"


Every cattleman selling bulls should be asked this question...better yet, they should have already asked themselves this question.
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pukerimu



Posts : 100
Join date : 2012-06-02
Location : Norsewood, New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: A different view   Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:07 pm

Next mating we will be using 4 of our own bulls.  Big As 779 who we have calves on the ground by now was in the 2nd mob and probably smack in the middle of that mob for weight - he was retained for type and the strength of his pedigree (or what we expected him to do) - as an example of his easy fleshing, he has been held up on unimproved crappy grass around some sheds for the last month or so and has lost not a bit of condition compared to another bull who was turning his nose up at the rank grass - not As - he just scoffs anything.  His calves weaned 5 kg's ahead of the average though - perhaps that was the cows he was selected to run with - we are happy with our decision to retain him.  Fat Boy (born 2006) was so far down the weight order it was not funny - we kept him because his full brother had turned out to be a lovely bull - sold to a local farmer the year before.  Fat Boy's 600 day weight was 662kg as opposed to the heaviest bull that year (catalogued at lot 6) who was 772kg at the same age.

From a 2013 drop of 85 bull calves (heifers born outnumbered them considerably that year) we steered 8 for various reasons - these were bulls based on pedigree, rearing circumstances, nature etc  deemed never to be good enough to be in a sale line up as weaners - we have not usually made that call but have found wintering the bulls in large numbers on a kale crop behind electric tape, and deer winding them up, that less is sometimes best (even with reducing the number to 77 we had three killed on the crop (mob mentality riding and fighting - several km from home) - we are oblivious to trouble until it greets us the next morning  Sad ) and two that had to be taken out to save their lives.  So down to 74 live bulls at 400 days - we catalogued 55 of them, 15 have already been sent for slaughter and we have 4 spare which if we can we will sell in the paddock otherwise they will wing their way to the US as hamburger.  Steers can be run anywhere and next to anything whereas bulls need more thought - hence decision to steer them.  We will probably do it again this year - maybe even more based on the dramas on the crop last winter.

Our herd was formed nearly 50 years ago by Kevin's father when all registered, and non, breeders alike were focusing on the cows they wanted to breed - enter stage left 20 or so years ago the number gang and next minute whole family trees of cows are being culled to make way for the "new and improved" type of paint by number cattle and many registered breeders focussed on breeding the "next best thing bull wise" - unlike many breeders we gave that notion the one finger salute and continued to breed the cows we wanted to breed - yes we were exiled into the registered breeding wilderness but stuck to our guns - mainly because the cows that we had were doing the job for us and our loyal clinetele and we just knew that sooner or later the average NZ farmer would start to notice that their cattle were not improving as promised by all the smoke and mirrors - there were a few of us diehard breeders who stuck to their knitting.  Bearing in mind that the beef cow in NZ is not only in competition with her mates but with ewes (most farms are a 50/50 split between sheep and beef income - depending on the seasons changes that -at the moment sheep are letting the team down and beef is strong but it has been the other way - often) and also other land uses -  Hill country cows are challenged by sheep and compete for the same grass, lower country cows have to perform or they will be replaced with fattening steers, even lower country cows can be replaced by dairy bull beef, flatter land cows replaced by dairy grazers or even dairy conversions - NZ farmers who have stuck to their beef breeding cows need them to be hassle free - ie calving difficulties usually result in cow death, not intervention, no calf at weaning time equals slaughter of the cow, poor heifers equals that line of cow extinguishing itself - even if the mother is not able to be identified in a commercial setting - age will take care of her eventually.

The problem (happily for us and our ilk) with snake oil and mirrors is that it only lasts so long - the "new improved" number cattle are very like the swing (and back) to exotics a few years ago - average farmers were promised amazing results for both growth and weaner size - sadly what was neglected to be mentioned was that the large framed heavy milking cows required much more feed and could not imagine climbing to the top of the hill to find it - there is hardly a mob of commercial exotic cows in NZ now - likewise the shade of black is turning slowly but surely back to the traditionally bred Angus where the focus has been on the breeding cattle not numbers.  Funnily enough our Hereford peers never seemed to go down the number road - they saw improved sales and numbers sold last year as some of the commercial angus herds heavily infected with numberitis sought to give their herds some oomph with hybrid vigour with a Hereford bull or two.

Right now back to the sheep yards Evil or Very Mad I was bragging before actually - it is probably more like only 95% of the time when there is no shouting in the yards ................................. Wink
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Grassfarmer



Posts : 714
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: A different view   Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:04 pm

RobertMac wrote:
EddieM wrote:
"Would you be willing to use any of these bulls back in your herd and expect to be satisfied with the calves and results?"


Every cattleman selling bulls should be asked this question...better yet, they should have already asked themselves this question.

I had a buyer come pick out the last bull I had to sell this spring on the weekend. Gave him the choice of 3, with one of the others being destined for a sight unseen buyer and one being kept back for myself, albeit as a spare. I guess we are the opposite of the auction mentality and I couldn't be happier. Commercial prices which are profitable to me and allowing the buyer the chance of paying for them by selling a cull bull given how high they are trading now. Most are sold over the phone, sight unseen. A few people come to see them the first time but I think that's mainly because they haven't seen the breed before in the flesh. More and more of the buyers are asking me to pick their bull for them as I know the cattle best. I like the type of commercial buyer that is drawn to our program and our way of selling. Not one buyer this year has had any interest in identifying which bull was the heaviest, or the smallest for that matter. Only a couple asked about birth weights. We aren't moving big numbers yet but we always sell out so will slowly increase to meet the demand as long as this type of customer keeps showing up.
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pukerimu



Posts : 100
Join date : 2012-06-02
Location : Norsewood, New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: A different view   Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:11 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
More and more of the buyers are asking me to pick their bull for them as I know the cattle best. I like the type of commercial buyer that is drawn to our program and our way of selling. Not one buyer this year has had any interest in identifying which bull was the heaviest, or the smallest for that matter. Only a couple asked about birth weights. We aren't moving big numbers yet but we always sell out so will slowly increase to meet the demand as long as this type of customer keeps showing up.

..................... and that is what it is all about - having a passion for our cattle which is shared by others cheers - thereby making the hours spent affraid in breeding them more rewarding than it might otherwise be - financial or other forms of platitudes are required, (human nature ............. nothing more nothing less) if not for anything more than a feel good factor in a world with, sadly, more knockers than cheer squads.
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RobertMac



Posts : 262
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: A different view   Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:25 am

The "pedigree" should be about the "program", not the individual.
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pukerimu



Posts : 100
Join date : 2012-06-02
Location : Norsewood, New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: A different view   Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:54 pm

Agree completely - at then end of the day though come sale day you are selling individuals as well as a programme - hopefully they will both equal each other
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MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4007
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: A different view   Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:51 am

pukerimu wrote:
Agree completely - at then end of the day though come sale day you are selling individuals as well as a programme - hopefully they will both equal each other

the buyer pays for the individual and gets the program...

Joel Pett always has a different view...and it`s often applies quite well; sometimes to me; except I didn`t get too upset with AA`S comments; been the brunt of such from child adults because of having a different view on the internet too long to get too upset Smile

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Grassfarmer



Posts : 714
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: A different view   Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:39 am

Speaking of cartoons I came across this Clay Bennett one recently that has many applications in life given human nature. The busy theatre might be the registered mainstream of the cattle industry.

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