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pukerimu



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Location : Norsewood, New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: A different view   Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:08 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Megan, thx for the view and the invitation to go up there horseback riding...if it`s ok, I`ll just walk Smile

..

I did ride a horse up that hill by the tree ...................... once - did not know my way around the farm and was looking for some straggler heifers (even this year had a heifer turn up 10 days after we took them out - she must have fallen down and it took her that long to get up and recover enough to come looking for her mates - has a large lump on her back at base of tail but managed to calve unassisted and is back in calf) - anyway was following a sheep track around the side of the hill away from camera view when it stopped abruptly in a bluff - turned the horse around by having her almost rear up the bank and pivot and followed the track back - was to steep to go down so had to go up - mane hanging and hoping - knowing one mis-step and she'd be all over - the horse did actually let me ride her again after that but I made sure I knew where I was going from then on - probably the craziest thing I have ever done on a horse and there have been a few moments riding on terrain like this - I prefer to walk much of it now too - even with associated puffing and blowing and unattractive shade of red that comes with it lol!
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76 Bar



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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:11 pm

Your terrain appears to be an exact replica of mine. Turning a horse around is out of the question here. Only option is to slide further down hill and hope for the best. Bare foot a given and assuredly no iron and most certainly no calks.
Is that pancake flat valley floor part of the ranch? If so, I'm more than a little envious.
Curious…is your ground prone to major slippage during the wet season i.e. untold acres hurtling downwards and do your fences leap into the air?
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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:45 pm

I`ve been a bit amiss staying up here...would this be a selfie that missed? Smile

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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:50 pm

hmmm...looks like these boots have done some walking... cheers

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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:55 pm

what hides in here besides sheep?

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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:59 pm

Megan, you`ve been looking for sheep in all the wrong places ... Smile

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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:38 pm

76 Bar wrote:
Your terrain appears to be an exact replica of mine. Turning a horse around is out of the question here. Only option is to slide further down hill and hope for the best. Bare foot a given and assuredly no iron and most certainly no calks.
Is that pancake flat valley floor part of the ranch? If so, I'm more than a little envious.
Curious…is your ground prone to major slippage during the wet season i.e. untold acres hurtling downwards and do your fences leap into the air?

Sadly the valley floor is the neighbours - once part of this place but a previous owner in their wisdom sold it - can be bitterly cold as the gale westerly funnels through the valley over snow on the mountains. We do have 600 acres of flats scattered throughout which make the property pretty desirable - have to be careful with cultivation due to wind and have a short summer so limits the amount of cropping that can be done. We have been regrassing the flats in rotation as the pasture on them was very poor - successive years of previous owners lack of fert, and insect damage without remedial action, meant most of the desirable species of grass lost - leaving stuff that even the bugs won't eat.

On the wind theme - the ground is amazingly stable in view of our 2 metre annual rainfall but the wind hammers the fences - have had a couple of men from the fencing contractors on other ridges for two weeks now pulling down the deer netting top ups and reinstating / repairing / rewiring / reposting etc the original 8 wire post and batten fences - the netting top ups are propped up by long battens stapled to the existing wire - I am sure anyone with an imagination can understand what starts to happen when over 100 km winds are continually battering the fence and a wire breaks - doesn't take long for wires to be broken in all directions and then the damage just starts moving down the whole fence line as more and more movement occurs. We shake our heads at the mentality of previous owners who thought that was a good option. Mind you where there are brand new total deer netting fences the wind makes the posts move - they tend to dig trenches as the water starts sitting in the post holes and the wind rocks them back and forth - we have found bags of readicrete are the best option - just heavy to lug to the fence lines - once it is set though nothing is going to move that post lol!

Where earth moves it is usually wind rather than water - or more often a combination of the two.
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:52 pm

Mike - didn't want to spoil the view but wanted to make sure that everyone knew that I do climb those mountains cheers

We have a resident mob of deer which are quite adept at hiding in that scrub - only sign I saw on my travels through there was a carcase - maybe a stray shot or old age perhaps - there was a very old hind which had escaped muster when we took over 7 years ago so maybe it was her. With the deer netting fence top ups being progressively removed (to save the fences from the aforementioned winds) the deer are moving forward onto the rest of the farm - have two stags at the moment held in a paddock - they will be dealt with at some later stage when the venison in the freezer is nearly gone - about time for some beef I think ...........................

Yep those boots have walked some miles - been in the sheep yards, been in the cattle yards - have a replacement pair but not broken in enough to walk sideways on the hills yet - my toenails and ankles get a hard enough time in the old faithful's Sad

The sheep have been moved in front of us all the way around the hill and that is the gate out - that is the best sight - the not so great sight is when you get to the point from where the photo is taken and a whole lot more appear over your left shoulder and down the bank (been left behind in the scrub by not getting off the bike and going looking - we do learn!!!) - by the time the dogs and boss are rallied from the top of the hill and the bike turned around the old tarts are half way back around the hill and into the scrub - grrrrh - they can always move faster in the opposite direction to the one you want them to go - especially with a noisy huntaway pup chasing them the wrong way - the back of the big hill is my own personal nemesis - would quite like to close the gates and leave it to the deer but it covers 70 hectares so would be a hard job convincing the bank manager that we could do without that country.
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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:31 am

MKeeney wrote:
hmmm...looks like these boots have done some walking... cheers


some background music...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOKx0xy8QE8
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76 Bar



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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:53 pm

Quote :
Sadly the valley floor is the neighbours - once part of this place but a previous owner in their wisdom sold it…snip...We do have 600 acres of flats scattered throughout which make the property pretty desirable
Indeed. Extrication from fiscal hardship aside, more than a few have come to rue the day that portions of an original property were eliminated. Alas, no such flat land here. Crying or Very sad
Quote :
On the wind theme - the ground is amazingly stable in view of our 2 metre annual rainfall but the wind hammers the fences…snip...Where earth moves it is usually wind rather than water - or more often a combination of the two.
Significant wind common place here as well and especially on the ridge tops. Thankfully, blow you off your feet gales are relatively infrequent. Get a touch less rain…typically 1.7 meters. Coastal areas due west 2.5 meters and often much more. Geologically speaking, strata is very young. Major cause of ground slippage is ultra saturated soil and to a much lesser degree, wind. Not unusual after persistent, copious precipitation to observe major acreage slippage. Colloquially called blue glue. Decidedly fool hearty to attempt navigation by foot and assuredly not via horse. Likewise, posts and steel stakes commonly ripped out of the ground and subsequently fences high enough to easily walk under or nearly perpendicular. Preventing/retifying encroachment by neighbors cattle requires constant vigilance. No navigable roads to speak of.
In addition to enormous rock formations, the pic of you standing on the rock "hump" was amazing. Have many dead ringers. Presume the reddish material amongst the dry grass is dormant lichen. If so, yet again eerily similar.
Apologies for usurping the thread but found it fascinating that two ranches seemingly a world apart could environmentally/geologically be so similar. Carry on.
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:42 pm

No worries about "usurping" - comments / insights welcome - photos?  I am fascinated by others farming/breeding - challenges, successes, philosophies etc - totally parochially one eyed of course but interested none the less lol!

Much of NZ is prone to major earth movement - both actual land movement (basically made up of fault lines) and slipping.  Heavy clay atop rock - water gets in between and it starts to move dramatically.  Where we came from (middle of North Island) was heavy clay on the flat land (aka bog in the winter - river flats prone to flooding - was a barrel of laughs living there ... gotta say  Evil or Very Mad ) and clay on papa (rock base) or light ash (volcanic) also atop papa - add rain and it is not pretty - fences always moving - sheep even worse than cattle at finding holes.

The geology on this place formed by tectonic fold mountains (Mountain range in behind us) and then glacial movement forming the valleys during last ice age (as an aside so much for Global warming - last couple of winters I have been concerned that the glaciers will start forming again on our back boundaries ........ apparently it is now called Climate change and "some" cooling maybe expected - holy heck I was hanging out for some warming myself!!)

NZ is the new kid on the block geographically, formed by earthquakes and volcanic eruptions - not called the shaky Isles for nothing - link to geonet site - pretty much constant movement

http://www.geonet.org.nz/quakes/all
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:50 am

Megan, since NZ`ers are the fencing experts, I thought you might share about this corner post bracing Very Happy



and in the same vein like 76`s questions, are those my kind of thistles growing up there ?
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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:56 am

why is this growing trees and not grass? soil type? harvestable timber?

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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:12 am

Reading about the soils and the volcanic ash rock brought back memories. I got involved in a dam that was to be built and every bore hole was 4 feet of soil and then "tuff" which was a volcanic ash deposited rock. Actually, the only difference in looking at the soil and the rock was that the rock was harder and the soil was softer: same gain texture, color, ... Anyhow, the borrow area to get enough soil to build the dam would cover 40+ acres so we opted for a rock fill toe. A great deal of magical formulas by the geologists to figure the gradation of rock from core to back toe. But when the contractor blasted the rock it all came out under 4" and mostly dust! What a hoot but we got it built just the same. Anyhow, a past adventure.
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:34 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Megan, since NZ`ers are the fencing experts, I thought you might share about this corner post bracing Very Happy ]

Haha - that is redundant fencing material that everyone who has ever walked past has been too lazy to dig out - myself included- and lug down the hill.  We call that post arrangement an "angle" (upright post) and a stay (post on diagonal - one end is dug into the ground with a "foot" and the other is "pencilled" of" and notched into a groove/slot cut into the angle post) - where the fence line is a corner or there is any counter pressure put on the post a stay is put in place - at the base of the stay post (one on an slant) there will be a foot which is another part of a post placed sideways where the stay post is dug into the ground - this stops the "stay" from moving and keeps tension on the angle post.

[and in the same vein like 76`s questions, are those my kind of thistles growing up there ?

Thistles, pistles - those are scotch thistles - we also have Californian which have had a bit of a hurry up on the flats this year - hopefully we got them at the right time - young ones coming off the runners appear to be dying too.  Nodding thistles are considered noxious by Kevin and dug out whenever they are seen!  We often spray some of the property for thistles when we spray the porina caterpillar but not this piece.

Re question about pine trees - I am guessing that that particular piece of the farm (220 hectares) was hard terrain and dreadful to muster - the other side of that knob would be very exposed and that is native bush and scrub and part of the Ruahine ranges in the back ground, hence the decision to plant - pines were all the rage 30 years ago when farming was at yet another low point - we have pine blocks scattered all over the farm - now that piece of land is coming back to haunt us - a fellow owned the 1000 acres of bush behind it where he had a well set up hunting lodge / escape (there is no deer hunting season on NZ - they can be shot anytime of the year and there is a plentiful supply in the ranges - and apparently on our place too .........) that block has right of way through our place so we got to know him pretty well - cut a long story short he sold it to an off shore based banker and but wanted to replicate his arrangement on a smaller scale - the pines on that block are mostly pulp timber - they have never been trimmed and at that stage were considered worthless - in our wisdom and financial pinchedness (oh boy!!) we sold him the Pine block as a hunting / holiday retreat - all fine and dandy - he built a lovely little hunting lodge in a spot with an awesome outlook, married a woman who is highly asthmatic and allergic to pines (end of holiday bach notion) ............. I know it gets better ............... finished off his hunting bach to a high standard and then announced to us that he was going to log - arghhhhhhhh - logging trucks trundling past our kitchen window - we did some logging on our own account and it was dreadful so you can imagine our enthusiasm for that statement - fortunately or not - the log price dropped like a stone and his enthusiasm (and I imagine the logging contractors - there are easier blocks of pines to get to than one that has 7 sets of gates - which will all be closed Twisted Evil (and probably hotted up with a well placed electric fence fault  Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil  Evil or Very Mad ) and two river crossings - both of which are unstable and change with every heavy rain) and so he moved onto plan B which was to sell the block as a forestry block for about 4 and times what we sold it to him for - enter stage left an elusive Chinese businessman from the South Island who has never ridden a quad bike (best access) and on his first visit was driving a non 4wd rental and wearing totally inappropriate clothing for alpine NZ - he settled on the block in October and is only having his second visit this weekend (Easter) - oh to have a spare million or so to buy a block of land and have no interest in it?

Watch this space .........

Eddie ............ experts huh ................... lol!
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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:26 pm

thread switch...to a different view Smile ...so he`s lot 41; does that mean you consider 40 other bulls "better"?

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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:44 pm

Pretty simply there are 40 bulls heavier than him Smile ............. they are all fed the same and treated the same so the ones that gain the most weight - date of birth not withstanding - are considered the better bulls - bearing in mind that all the bulls, bar one or two which might be a bit taller or a bit shorter, have a very similar frame score - these bulls started at number 1301 so this bull was the 51st bull born.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:11 pm

pukerimu wrote:
Pretty simply there are 40 bulls heavier than him  Smile  ............. they are all fed the same and treated the same so the ones that gain the most weight - date of birth not withstanding - are considered the better bulls - bearing in mind that all the bulls, bar one or two which might be a bit taller or a bit shorter, have a very similar frame score - these bulls started at number 1301 so this bull was the 51st bull born.

Isn't that selecting the most terminal of all criteria - the best are the heaviest? or have I become too cynical?
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:33 pm

Cynical or not Grassfarmer - imagine you are standing in a paddock surrounded by 23 bulls in one mob and 36 bulls in the other and you have to rank them in an order of sorts - we have an auction because that is what our clients want (they each want the same shot as each other at the bull they want - not who happens to get to see them first - on an otherwise first in first served basis - besides which we do not have the time either) - an auction/catalogue book has pages that follow one another - how else would you suggest deciding which page which bull goes on?

It really is as simple as that - they are all pretty much the same but some are fatter/heavier, some a slightly taller and some are slightly shorter than others.  Size and shape also determines who is penned next to who on sale day.  4 bulls were deemed not up to scratch for one reason or another so were not catalogued.

Our breeding focus and decisions are based on breeding the heifers that we want - the bulls for sale (their brothers) just come from those decisions and judgements.  Every bull we use is decided on what we perceive they will add, cement or replicate in our cow herd - not on what kind of bulls they will breed.

We try to keep things as simple and easy as possible - between the two of us at the moment we have 59 r2 year old bulls (others have already been culled and killed or steered) which at any time if their grass just doesn't seem to be to their liking or they are left before moving to a fresh paddock just a little too long can start fighting and generally demolishing themselves before June 8 and have to be managed accordingly, especially the second mob which are several km from the house so cannot be monitored as easily. 200 freshly weaned cows/ heifers and their two mobs of heifer and bull calves (which are all coming back in for freeze branding after Easter), a mob of in calf heifers, a mob of steers, a mob of fattening heifers, 6 breeding bulls, a flock of rams being kept in optimal condition for tupping starting from 20th April, 2700 mixed age ewes also being prepared for tupping, (including 700 2 tooths shorn and sprayed for lice today), 750 replacement ewe lambs - teaser rams out with them 20th April - tupping rams out a couple of weeks later - so also being prepared for tupping, and about 1800 other fattening/sale lambs to be brought in and fat picks taken over the next month before the rest will be sent to the sale yards in store condition, and all the sheep apart from the two tooths sprayed today have to be brought in for pre lamb crutching and dipping for lice before sale day - cataloguing the bulls is just another job which is required to take as little time as possible.  Throw into the mix two teenage, and one young adult but still semi dependent, daughters.  And yes, surprisingly perhaps, 99.9% of the time the two of us do get along and therefore shouting in the yards both at each other and at the dogs is kept to a minimum lol!

We are open to suggestions as to how we could do it another "less terminal" way apart from not having an auction - some things are not negotiable Smile sorry to go on but I hope I am illustrating that the simple answer of how we catalogue the bulls covers a lot, which as simple as it may be, is not nearly as glib as it might first appear.
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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:56 am

Megan, have you ever heard this question used in NZ...Are you bragging or complaining? Smile

nahhhh, not cynical Grassy, selection for more and more weight is terminal; but all buyers are terminally indoctrinated; so it`s just giving the buyer what the buyer wants...doing so, is what is making Megan rich Wink  , while doing things my way is making me a just another commercial producer Crying or Very sad ...it`s good company; misery makes us so...Smile

but  better to select for weight than color...

http://www.tripletblackcattle.com/performance/

.awww yes, the registered business; where the value is in the paperwork... the key to the registered business, the paperwork passes from one breeder and one cattle generation to the next, even if the genes don`t Very Happy Very Happy

well, time for the second sleep session, if nothing else has been accomplished, Grassy should, in comparison, feel less cynical now Cool Very Happy
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:03 am

Moaning Mike ...................... definitely moaning Crying or Very sad as for making ourselves rich lol! lol! - we are simply making the banker look good .................... Arrow Idea Question Exclamation They reckon that the average annual return on investment for sheep and beef farmers in NZ has been 0.7% averaged over the last few years - oh man we are in the wrong job!

Just as well then that farmers are eternal optimists and get up the next morning to do it all again - the world would surely starve otherwise.

See what you started with all your cynicism Grassfarmer Wink

Interesting link, cheers
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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:38 am

The only simpler way to catalog all the bulls is tag order. I do like your present way of ordering the bulls.
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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:45 am

we have an auction because that is what our clients want (they each want the same shot as each other at the bull they want - not who happens to get to see them first ...th


given the registered emphasis/promotion of individuals rather than the population, you really have no choice...the registered con promoters have created this ignorance, while the pointy head formulas correctly show the outliers breeding back toward the average of the population...but alas, the registered con breeder can`t have that; because it will be the individual, not the average that gets talked about most...so for me, a good indicator of a con job is when the top bull brings about 5 times or more the sale average...3 times the average might just indicate ignorant, exuberant  buyers ...I tried to be one a couple of times at Shoshone, but never had enough money to fully earn the title Smile
then Larry changed ; for the economic benefit of his customers...and for his own  personal satisfaction of doing it the way he thought it should be...
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:52 am

quote:
Originally posted by Double D

Maybe Mike Keeney is onto something save the money and pass on the savings just offer good cattle at a fair price.



quote:
Originally posted by Markwright

That sounds GREAT to Me.
( forget all the magic...just walk thru em....And all the moms and grandmoms too ).
generally best to buy bull prospects just b 4 weaning time....then let everyone else buy the magic stuff later.


from disadvantage
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PostSubject: Re: A different view   Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:27 am

maternal breeding versus performance change breeding...

When I select the bulls I use, I visualize their five to ten generation pedigrees as a pen of cattle. In an ideal pen, the cows in the pen would be more similiar to the preferred type. Of course, the same cow appears in the pen several times among the more inbred stock. Since the bulls are simply the progenitors for the maternal characteristics, their indivdual performance is secondary. While I have flirted with a few of the more extreme bulls within the population, I have finally learned to avoid them altogether.  Larry Leonhardt


so if I liked the herd on appraisal , lot 41 looks about right...how many bulls do you steer/cull Megan ?
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