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 Fetal Programming

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jhudson



Posts : 27
Join date : 2010-09-24

PostSubject: Fetal Programming   Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:04 pm

" ...when the fetus receives insufficient nutrition through the placenta, it becomes programmed in the womb for a thrifty prototype. ...those with a thrifty prototype have a more efficient metabolism than babies born at a normal birthweight....It is simply a function of the intrauterine environment."
Epigenetics- Richard C. Harris
Is this why we keep talking about "type"?
Would be interested in observations about "fetal programming." Jim
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jhudson



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PostSubject: Fetal Programming   Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:07 pm

Prototype should be phenotype. Jim
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LCP



Posts : 70
Join date : 2012-04-16
Location : north central SD

PostSubject: Re: Fetal Programming   Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:47 am

From what I've heard of fetal programming, it may be advantageous to rough your cows carrying maternally-sired calves a little harder than those carrying terminal-sired calves. Can't speak from experience, but that's what the studies seem to suggest. THose with good nutrition in utero grew to bigger finished weights and graded better I think. Those that were challenged in utero were more feed efficient, grew to smaller weights, and didn't grade as well. There could possibly be some health effects related to too much nutritional restriction I'm sure.
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EddieM



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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Fetal Programming   Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:18 pm

LCP wrote:
From what I've heard of fetal programming, it may be advantageous to rough your cows carrying maternally-sired calves a little harder than those carrying terminal-sired calves.  Can't speak from experience, but that's what the studies seem to suggest.  THose with good nutrition in utero grew to bigger finished weights and graded better I think.  Those that were challenged in utero were more feed efficient, grew to smaller weights, and didn't grade as well.  There could possibly be some health effects related to too much nutritional restriction I'm sure.  

Same thing in sheep research.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Fetal Programming   Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:56 pm

http://www.bifconference.com/bif2014/Summaries/BIF2014-GS1-KimVonnahme.htm

http://www.bifconference.com/bif2014/newsroom.html

◾The Long-lasting Impact of Nutrition: Developmental Programming, Kim Vonnahme, North Dakota State University
    Summary by Kasey Brown | PowerPoint (5.1 MB pdf) | Proceedings (180 KB pdf) | Audio (12.4 MB mp3)

best to get up the powerpoint...and listen to audio as you scroll through pp...

but a little too typical a finding....calls for more research...

Eddie, I believe she notes some differing response in sheep as compared to cattle in this particular response
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EddieM



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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Fetal Programming   Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:05 pm

MKeeney wrote:
http://www.bifconference.com/bif2014/Summaries/BIF2014-GS1-KimVonnahme.htm

http://www.bifconference.com/bif2014/newsroom.html

◾The Long-lasting Impact of Nutrition: Developmental Programming, Kim Vonnahme, North Dakota State University
    Summary by Kasey Brown | PowerPoint (5.1 MB pdf) | Proceedings (180 KB pdf) | Audio (12.4 MB mp3)

best to get up the powerpoint...and listen to audio as you scroll through pp...

but a little too typical a finding....calls for more research...

Eddie, I believe she notes some differing response in sheep as compared to cattle in this particular response

There I go, falling behind again.
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Kent Powell



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Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Fetal Programming   Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:09 pm

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Kent Powell



Posts : 606
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Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Fetal Programming   Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:10 pm

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MKeeney
Admin


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Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Fetal Programming   Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:48 pm

EddieM wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
http://www.bifconference.com/bif2014/Summaries/BIF2014-GS1-KimVonnahme.htm

http://www.bifconference.com/bif2014/newsroom.html

◾️The Long-lasting Impact of Nutrition: Developmental Programming, Kim Vonnahme, North Dakota State University
    Summary by Kasey Brown | PowerPoint (5.1 MB pdf) | Proceedings (180 KB pdf) | Audio (12.4 MB mp3)

best to get up the powerpoint...and listen to audio as you scroll through pp...

but a little too typical a finding....calls for more research...

Eddie, I believe she notes some differing response in sheep as compared to cattle in this particular response

There I go, falling behind again.  

Eddie,
I`ve decided I`m not too old to learn; but too old to change...so I`ll be back somewhere behind you Smile
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jhudson



Posts : 27
Join date : 2010-09-24

PostSubject: Fetal Programming   Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:09 pm

Thanks for comments and links. Given info wonder what you think of comment made by breeder about moving bull from from one environment to greatly different environment:
"The progeny will be fine because in utero they are programmed to adapt to the environment they will be born in. That's why AI works everywhere."
Thanks, Jim
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MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4605
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Fetal Programming   Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:35 pm

jhudson wrote:
Thanks for comments and links. Given info wonder what you think of comment made by breeder about moving bull from from one environment to greatly different environment:
"The progeny will be fine because in utero they are programmed to adapt to the environment they will be born in. That's why AI works everywhere."
Thanks, Jim
 
I`ll add another "too old" statement...I`m too old to believe such bs... Smile if the fetal environment is going to be that dominant, would it ever matter what we breed to?
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EddieM



Posts : 895
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Fetal Programming   Mon Dec 01, 2014 8:40 pm

MKeeney wrote:
EddieM wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
http://www.bifconference.com/bif2014/Summaries/BIF2014-GS1-KimVonnahme.htm

http://www.bifconference.com/bif2014/newsroom.html

◾️The Long-lasting Impact of Nutrition: Developmental Programming, Kim Vonnahme, North Dakota State University
    Summary by Kasey Brown | PowerPoint (5.1 MB pdf) | Proceedings (180 KB pdf) | Audio (12.4 MB mp3)

best to get up the powerpoint...and listen to audio as you scroll through pp...

but a little too typical a finding....calls for more research...

Eddie, I believe she notes some differing response in sheep as compared to cattle in this particular response

There I go, falling behind again.  

Eddie,
I`ve decided I`m not too old to learn; but too old to change...so I`ll be back somewhere behind you Smile

I just do not want the facts to get in the way of my opinions.
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EddieM



Posts : 895
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Fetal Programming   Mon Dec 01, 2014 8:46 pm

MKeeney wrote:
jhudson wrote:
Thanks for comments and links. Given info wonder what you think of comment made by breeder about moving bull from from one environment to greatly different environment:
"The progeny will be fine because in utero they are programmed to adapt to the environment they will be born in. That's why AI works everywhere."
Thanks, Jim
 
I`ll add another "too old" statement...I`m too old to believe such bs... Smile if the fetal environment is going to be that dominant, would it ever matter what we breed to?

Some do and some don't. If it breaks at 50/50 then the cost of the good ones are higher. But why can some cattle or semen cross the environmental boundaries? An unknown to me but I've seen both. Seems that the outside influence via semen produces better 2nd generational animals (25%) than the first generation (50%) even if the first generation seems to bridge over the environmental differences. Is it because of two gestation periods causing adaption, the majority of local genes or something else?
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MKeeney
Admin


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PostSubject: Re: Fetal Programming   Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:16 pm

◾Cow efficiency and productivity: The MARC Perspective, Larry Kuehn, USDA MARC
Summary | PowerPoint (2.2 MB pdf) | Audio (19.6 MB mp3)

intriguing power point charts...will listen to audio soon...
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Grassfarmer



Posts : 847
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Fetal Programming   Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:51 pm

jhudson wrote:
" ...when the fetus receives insufficient nutrition through the placenta, it becomes programmed in the womb for a thrifty prototype. ...those with a thrifty prototype have a more efficient metabolism than babies born at a normal birthweight....It is simply a function of the intrauterine environment."

I'm interested in this to try and explain what I have experienced with a small group of lease cows that I run that were all severely malnourished every winter before they came to my place. I don't know if they were a "thrifty phenotype" as kept on the same rations their parents had about half only calved every second year, mortality was high, calf growth rates were poor. How much was management or genetics or intrauterine environment?

When moved onto a feed regime that has met their nutritional needs they have proven reliable cows, no bother breeding back, always raising above average calves for growth. They are not huge milkers so that's not causing the bigger calves, they are not being outcrossed genetically in fact they are some of my tightest bred lines. Bob Church suggested to me an increase in metabolism efficiency after a couple of generations survive being severely malnourished. Can't say the extra growth/metabolism efficiency we see in the calves shows once they are adults - they are just regular cows that fit in with the rest of same aged cows.
One thing about the original cows is that despite having gained weight and grown out well under our conditions they lose weight very rapidly when conditions get tougher (e.g. grazing through snow on banked grass) They just can't seem to overcome that "tough" raising completely.
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MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4605
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Fetal Programming   Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:45 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
jhudson wrote:
" ...when the fetus receives insufficient nutrition through the placenta, it becomes programmed in the womb for a thrifty prototype. ...those with a thrifty prototype have a more efficient metabolism than babies born at a normal birthweight....It is simply a function of the intrauterine environment."

I'm interested in this to try and explain what I have experienced with a small group of lease cows that I run that were all severely malnourished every winter before they came to my place. I don't know if they were a "thrifty phenotype" as kept on the same rations their parents had about half only calved every second year, mortality was high, calf growth rates were poor. How much was management or genetics or intrauterine environment?

When moved onto a feed regime that has met their nutritional needs they have proven reliable cows, no bother breeding back, always raising above average calves for growth. They are not huge milkers so that's not causing the bigger calves, they are not being outcrossed genetically in fact they are some of my tightest bred lines. Bob Church suggested to me an increase in metabolism efficiency after a couple of generations survive being severely malnourished. Can't say the extra growth/metabolism efficiency we see in the calves shows once they are adults - they are just regular cows that fit in with the rest of same aged cows.
One thing about the original cows is that despite having gained weight and grown out well under our conditions they lose weight very rapidly when conditions get tougher (e.g. grazing through snow on banked grass) They just can't seem to overcome that "tough" raising completely.

Iain, I didn`t want such a thoughtful post to go un-noted...so, like the researchers, I`m going to say, more research is needed Smile
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