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 Three to go to new homes

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outsidethebox



Posts : 88
Join date : 2010-11-17
Age : 64
Location : Goessel, Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:00 am

EddieM wrote:
Maybe we have outsmarted ourselves by learning how to keep the weak alive long enough to add their genes to the population.

Eddie, Looking on Craigslist for a tractor with a sail and rudder.  Can you plow with a tugboat?

I believe this, "keep the weak alive long enough to add their genes to the population" is a big deal. "Seed stock producers" do this routinely without ever considering the long-term consequences.
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pukerimu



Posts : 246
Join date : 2012-06-02
Location : Norsewood, New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:18 pm

"Show me the money" ................. and to heck with everything else? Sounds about right based on some of the train wrecks seen in the near past.
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RobertMac



Posts : 377
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:38 pm

I keep the weak alive long enough to put wheels under them.
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MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4624
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:29 pm

RobertMac wrote:
I keep the weak alive long enough to put wheels under them.

Another Leonhardtism...

A calf dying is an economic loss but not a genetic loss..
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larkota



Posts : 371
Join date : 2010-09-23
Age : 57
Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:04 pm

MKeeney wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
I keep the weak alive long enough to put wheels under them.

Another Leonhardtism...

A calf dying is an economic loss but not a genetic loss..


DONT THINK IT IS EVEN AN ECONOMIC LOSS. THINK ABOUT IT, WHAT IS THE COST TO WATCH THE OTHER 99% TO SAVE THE 1%? IF TIME IS MONEY TIME BETTER SPENT ELSE WHERE.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:24 am

larkota wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
I keep the weak alive long enough to put wheels under them.

Another Leonhardtism...

A calf dying is an economic loss but not a genetic loss..


DONT THINK IT IS EVEN AN ECONOMIC LOSS. THINK ABOUT IT, WHAT IS THE COST TO WATCH THE OTHER 99% TO SAVE THE 1%?  IF TIME IS MONEY TIME BETTER SPENT ELSE WHERE.

time is not money ...but time wasted has a cost...bull buyer Saturday; been to Coffelts, had I known that before, I would have said nothing for sale...his cows are too big, but a bull I showed him wasn`t long enough etc...anyway, not time wasted , because from that experience comes a new policy...I won`t  sell any more bulls to new customers unless they buy a breeding unit of females...but gee, if they buy a breeding unit of females, I usually loan or give them a bull; so sales will continue to shrink Sad  but time , though it is not money, is more valuable Very Happy cheers

It is beyond a doubt that all our knowledge begins with experience.

Immanuel Kant
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Mark Day



Posts : 243
Join date : 2010-09-24
Age : 51
Location : Russellville, Ohio

PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:37 am

I really wonder if not easier to make these guys freezer beef. They are likely too not good enough for some as well.
http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/grd/5267095026.html
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larkota



Posts : 371
Join date : 2010-09-23
Age : 57
Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:03 pm

larkota wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
I keep the weak alive long enough to put wheels under them.

Another Leonhardtism...

A calf dying is an economic loss but not a genetic loss..


DONT THINK IT IS EVEN AN ECONOMIC LOSS. THINK ABOUT IT, WHAT IS THE COST TO WATCH THE OTHER 99% TO SAVE THE 1%?  IF TIME IS MONEY TIME BETTER SPENT ELSE WHERE.

corrected
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MKeeney
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Posts : 4624
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PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:56 pm

larkota wrote:
larkota wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
I keep the weak alive long enough to put wheels under them.

Another Leonhardtism...

A calf dying is an economic loss but not a genetic loss..


DONT THINK IT IS EVEN AN ECONOMIC LOSS. THINK ABOUT IT, WHAT IS THE COST TO WATCH THE OTHER 99% TO SAVE THE 1%?  IF TIME IS MONEY TIME BETTER SPENT ELSE WHERE.

corrected
TIME BETTER SPENT ELSE WHERE
Very Happy Razz Razz
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EddieM



Posts : 895
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:02 am

If I sell an Angus bull tomorrow, is that a Black Friday Sale?
[url=]715[/url]
[url=]one year of diference[/url]
[url=]Daddy Bull, Mama Bull and most of Bull family[/url]
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Bob H



Posts : 372
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:39 pm

Eddie would you please give me a short rundown on how you are breeding and raising these bulls. Bob H
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EddieM



Posts : 895
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PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:21 pm

Bob H wrote:
Eddie would you please give me a short rundown on how you are breeding and raising these bulls. Bob H

Bob, nothing special on the bulls. The cows are a few purchased but mostly home raised. The sire of some of the ones pictured is the 715 bull which is home raised. Instead of trying to make a lot on the tail end I try to save on the front end. Cows fit the environment, we adjust the environment with proper soil pH to encourage legumes, we do not use commercial fertilizer, legumes are shotgun mixed when planted and we try some new ones in some years. Instead of fighting the unbeatable in KY 31 fescue, we blend in legumes, look for adaptation in cattle and strip graze stockpiled fescue all winter and mixed summer grasses and fescue in the summer. Hay is pretty minimally and used as a tool to either feed during ice and snow or in some years to delay turn in to stockpiled fescue.

The environment limits weaning weights so I have no lofty dreams there. Bulls are weaned and grazed on fescue and legume pastures in the winter and there is some switchgrass for part of the summer and bermudagrass mixed in places.

So many folks think that there is magic in the bottom of a feed bucket that they discount forage raised bulls. If they ever buy one then they tell me about how well they do, how long they last, and what we like to hear in that they are successful rather than just to feel good about selling a bull. I have no fluff to sell or tell. Sorry.
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Bob H



Posts : 372
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Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:37 pm

Do you use multiple sire groups?

Where did you get your start for your home raised cows.

What criteria doe you use on the females.

Tell me more about ph and how long you have worked at it and where it goes from year to year.

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EddieM



Posts : 895
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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:22 pm

Quote :
Do you use multiple sire groups?
No, we run them with single sire and treat them like commercials but they are registered Angus. It is hard to sell a grade bull here for much over beef prices if you can generate interest. And I am not opposed to registering them as that was a lifetime goal. I also know that it is just paper. But when I die and they have the auction, just think how rich the widow will be! Wow, a chance to buy some registered cows from the old man's estate!!!

Quote :
Where did you get your start for your home raised cows.
Our family has had cows here since the 60's. Some are from those and the pedigrees/backgrounds represent my late father's influence and in the recent decade or two the cattle are mostly from home raised bulls. I still dabble with AI but the sort and cull deal can get aggravating. Bulls I would consider for AI now would have daughters in production so that I could know that they can function as moderate cattle in a forage program.

Quote :
What criteria doe you use on the females.
They need to calve every year. We have hand records since 1983. Odd thing about the cows and it might not be uncommon - we see generational ups and down. Some cows that had low weaning weights sire calves with almost too much weaning weight. So I do not cull too hard and just let the cows cull themselves. I would like to tell you that I can pick cows that replicate themselves but it is pure trial and error for me. I used to hope that I could see a link in fertility and longevity and have given up on that notion. I do want slick hair and good feet and legs and a sound udder. I want nothing that is wild as I usually work them alone and with the poliewire and strip grazing I do not need idiots. To be honest, I do not have a uniform look in the cattle and am not sure how you can get adapted cattle to all look just alike. Maybe I ought to inbreed them more. So function outweighs a preconceived look.

Quote :
Tell me more about ph and how long you have worked at it and where it goes from year to year.
Our natural soil pH is about 5.3 to 5.5A lot of this area of the USA was continual cotton for 100+ years so gullies and lack of topsoil are common starting points. We have an old saying about a pea (cow pea) having to roll around for a while to find a place to sprout. So, my parents bought some and I bought some and it is what it is. My father wanted to do the right things and was a user of commercial fertilizer. About 15 years ago I asked to try broiler litter and he agreed. After he saw the results he said that he should have done that 30 years ago when he saw the difference. It supplied N in various forms, P and K but did not affect the pH. My father tried to apply limestone but always hesitated to get beyond Clemson University recommendations. I am a man of a thousand failed experiments and few successes but I am curious enough to try and fail. I took the pH up to higher levels and began to observe pastures. Take ladino clover for an example: Clemson University recommends a pH about 5.9. We would have clover in about 25% of the pasture at 5.8 to 5.9. Tried a pasture to 6.0+ and clover was in 50% of the pasture. Long story short, pH is average around 6.5 in our pastures and legumes are pretty much everywhere. I had lime applied in a few pastures this fall to try to get all things right. My theory- as the salts from commercial fertilizers leach out, the pastures as a whole seem to do better. I would say that we have increased carrying capacity now beyond the old days of fertilizer. Some pastures due to a fluke are at 7.1 or so and do fine. Clemson U specialists told me years ago that I would ruin our piedmont soils and pastures with pH above 6.3. I forget the reason. I guess I am ruined in a good way.

So I guess I key in on pastures, emphasize legumes, can't change the weather and let the cows and sheep sort themselves with the help of me and a trailer to haul them off if they don't work out. But to tell the whole story, I really enjoy what I am doing and it is more profitable this way.
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RobertMac



Posts : 377
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PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:41 pm

Like your system, Eddie. I should do the lime thing to work on pH.
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Bob H



Posts : 372
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:12 am

Eddie we do some business buying pasture from other folks, about three years ago we started to lease pasture from a fellow name Will and he was the first to talk about ph. We have the very best luck with his grass for the longest period of time. You think that some where in the 6s is ideal for legumes to grow. Bob H
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EddieM



Posts : 895
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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:07 am

Bob, I target soils to have a pH over 6 and have P and K over the yearly limits of the soil test recommendations for legume and grass mixed pastures. My standby legume is a medium white clover called Durana but we have a lot more legumes other than that species. Legumes are favored in my rag tag system while the Clemson U system expects annual applications of fertilizer. I assume that their thought is to slightly favor the grass rather than the legume - I don't know. Many do not realize that the high, very high and excessive levels of a particular element on a soil test refer to the one year need of a crop. We have clay in our soils, yet have good porosity. But the clays bond with P and K and let me "bank" excess nutrients from a few applications of boiler litter so that the grasses and especially the legumes do not suffer a deficiency. And the modification of pH also allows our particular soils to release or change natural P to be available to plant roots. It is cheaper to get P and K for multi years via broiler litter on a rate that exceeds an annual need but it does not leave the farm. A dollar and cents issue for me.

I am, in a poor way, trying to say that I differ from a land grant college or an ag university recommendation due to experiences and personal economy. I am not wanting mere minimums to just, as Merle Haggard used to sing, "If we can make it through December". As the lime slowly leaches it will help deepen the root zones for the legumes that are so inclined. The lack of pure N on the surface in the form of fertilizer prills on an annual or semi annual basis ought to maintain more duff at the mineral soil line. This is somewhat like "soil health". My goodness, that term has been shanghaied to mean whatever the author sells. My efforts are not as pure as "multi species of plants and plant types will change the soil due to natural root enzymes and fungi". Dr. Ray Archeletta is a wealth of information and a source of true information on this type system of plant mixes for functional soil changes due to related enzymes and fungi but I do not care to wait the years for that method to work and nobody gives seeds away. I am jumping ahead and making a more useful root environment ASAP so that the species I prefer can help me now.

If you need a Christmas gift that is useful and can plant the bug in someone's ear, the best reference book I have found on forages is "Southern Forages" now in the 5th edition by Ball Hoveland and Lacefield. It covers a lot of ground in a medium sized book and will probably not help too much with range plants but has a world of hands-on information for the person who grazes, hays, plants, want more info, ... This includes pH ranges that are optimal for various legumes.

If it were an economical option, I would apply some gypsum on a pasture or two to see if I could quickly deepen the root zones to be more favorable to deeper rooted legumes such as alfalfa. That would be about as far as I can go with mad soil science around here. It would not change subsoil pH but would combat Al and Mn toxicity in those deeper zones. Too much cost for an experiment.
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:15 am

Short answer is "ideal" pH is 6.5 to7.0
But there are many variables that qualifies "ideal".
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Grassfarmer



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Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:32 pm

I'm moving up the ph scale. Started out in wet, acidic Scotland where natural levels were 3-4. We applied 2 ton/acre of ground mag limestone and had to be back onto it again within 10 years to maintain levels around 5. In Alberta we had 5.8-6 so barely high enough to grow alfalfa. Here in Manitoba the new place is generally over 7.8, some as high as 8.2. Not sure what the effect will be. We could grow great clover in the previous places and on one summers evidence we seem to be able to grow great alfalfa and sweet-clover. Phosphate levels have always seemed to me to be the main thing for legume success. What are the downsides of having ph's over 7.5 robertmac or Eddie? Up to 7.5 seems to be optimum but no-one tells you what the downside is beyond that.
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EddieM



Posts : 895
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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:09 am

I cannot get the classic low to high pH nutrient availably chart on right now. There is some yo-yo that had to be tolerated due to economics. SGF magazine used to say only put max 1000 pounds of lime per acre per year. You pay more labor and truck time than lime cost if you do that. I break their cardinal rule and put out enough for multiple years to make the best sense to me versus lime cost dropped on farm vs. spreading cost and end effects. The benefit of higher levels in the top 3 to 5" is that more surplus lime can leach deeper into the profile. So if there are ill effects on the year of spreading (I tend to doubt) then something is to be gained in later years.

This is not an end all or a garden of Eden if there are new readers and folks who totter on the edge of action and inaction. The forages in these pastures respond to the full environment in spite of my mini efforts. There are several years of transition required to see the plan shift into better production. Legume species which are not there need to be added and that can be an expensive bag of seed. Dry, wet, cold, hot, or whatever and I will see more of one species one year than others, something from time to time causes species of legumes to break dormancy on hard seeds and there will be a flush, ... It is a very interesting classroom where learning never ends.

Some brag of money made. I work off of the side of lest spent and then do some marketing work to sell what comes out of the other end of the pipe.

And rest assured, there is no free lunch. The release of N from the dead roots and nodules created a mini acidic reaction and in the long run the natural nitrogen also works to acidify the soils. So once limed does not equal always limed.
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:06 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
What are the downsides of having ph's over 7.5 robertmac or Eddie? Up to 7.5 seems to be optimum but no-one tells you what the downside is beyond that.

If the region and soil type are prone to alkalinity, the forage class that is there will show little effect until alkalinity moves toward extremes. Gypsum (calcium sulfate) and ammonia sulfate will help keep pH in check.

If naturally acid soils are changed to alkalinity, the class of plants will change.

If you are planting improved varieties, your soil needs to be of high fertility like the soil they were developed on.

Neutral pH is best for microorganism in soil.

The most important "fertilizer" is water.

Good resource...The Albrecht Papers
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:52 pm

Quote :
ammonia sulfate
One pound will need over 5 pounds of ag lime to neutralize the increased acidity. To maximize bermudagrass, annual forages like crabgrass and such it doesn't take long to need another ton of lime to keep a steady balance.
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Grassfarmer



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Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:53 pm

RobertMac wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
What are the downsides of having ph's over 7.5 robertmac or Eddie? Up to 7.5 seems to be optimum but no-one tells you what the downside is beyond that.

If the region and soil type are prone to alkalinity, the forage class that is there will show little effect until alkalinity moves toward extremes.

So what is an extreme? PH scale is 0-14. Where are other areas of high ph soil in the world that is farmed and what are the levels?
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:47 am

Thanks for the information, it correlates with what we see at Wills and what he talks about.
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Bob H



Posts : 372
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PostSubject: Re: Three to go to new homes   Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:03 am

I would like to talk about your cattle again and why you A I and do not use multiple sires from your own raising..
Our experience has been that our cattle have become more uniform, consistent in making cows that love their baby's calmly and raise them on their own for a long time. We also raise bulls and have found that they need some culling but not much other than for age and are truly uniform on forage. We end up with about 1 to 2 percent that are to inbred looking but that is only from 4 to 8 head out of 400. With the huge amount of good that has come from this line-breeding program we feel it more than benefits.

The other unspoken amount of good comes from the Epi-genetics that are formed from not introducing new genes but working from within. ie lack of disease , fertility, grading, Mothering ability, adaptation to your feed and management type etc.
Bob H
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