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 Fat Boy ????

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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:02 pm

The whole vicious circle: is it milk or is it growth? Does It matter?
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:44 pm

Or perhaps indifferent mothering breeds indifferent mothering - demand and supply - one of the largest determining factor apart from how much the cow is being fed (which in expansive pasture based feeding is hard to micro manage) and maybe, genetics, in milk production. Even with genetics though, production will wain if the calf cannot drink all the milk, - especially if mastitis etc issues appear.  We never see mastitis in our own herd but have a couple of the neighbours dairy cows here rearing abandoned twins and orphans - man on man - why anyone would breed for huge milk production in a beef cow is beyond me after dealing with these girls - obviously there were issues before they came to us which is why they were not in the main milking herd and available for "adoption".  Fortunately we have got them both to the point of happily rearing two each.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:01 pm

MK wrote:
You degraded penhookers in a recent post; I hold them in higher esteem than most registered breeders; for the successful penhooker must know the true value of cattle.
Meant what I said. Penhookers do not pay true value or they would never make their money. They pay under value and then resell quickly with little skin in the game to make their profit. Registered breeders run a broader width of types in my experiences. I never knew too many that were big boys and never had that desire to seek them out. Once I see a catalog, determine the character of the individual or know how they breed cattle I then can tell if there is any kindred spirit. Even if they do things differently I do not dislike them as long as they are honest in their pursuits. I am not interested in the latest and potentially greatest so I am fine with a somewhat self-imposed outlier status. No lonely Maytag repairman here but I see few interested in breeding cattle in a system that builds the herd from within the herd.

I have seen more of the generational skip in milk production from high to low and sometimes back.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:12 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Mark Day wrote:
Eddie,
Glad I am not the only one that needs a few records to keep things straight.

Mark,
what records caused you to sell me the best two year old heifer in my pasture this fall; I`m pretty sure what you kept aren`t all as good; and none could be better; she`s perfect Smile ...oh, while you`re at it; take your records and tell me her number Smile
Must be some records there somewhere. Mark's heifer, the best two year old, perfect, an ID number. How did Mark's random heifer beat out all of your home raised heifers? Is it a matter of records, period, or is it the records that each person uses? It is a lot like sports. Football season upon us so the winner is known by the final score. But the papers and reports are full of yards passing, yards rushing, interceptions, punts, average punt distance, ... Why?
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:18 pm

Personally, it is easier for me to see near perfection without the whole story than it is with 4-5 generations of experience and knowing what flaws are possibly/probably still in there.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:28 pm

Kent Powell wrote:
Personally, it is easier for me to see near perfection without the whole story than it is with 4-5 generations of experience and knowing what flaws are possibly/probably still in there.  

yes; even with limited qualifications; perfection is rare; and temporary...I think it is a breeders job to make some semblance of it more permanent...only thing permanent in the registered game is change...

cattle breeding is a relative simple endeavor; the difficulty lies in keeping is simple...Lasater
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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:38 pm

EddieM wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Mark Day wrote:
Eddie,
Glad I am not the only one that needs a few records to keep things straight.

Mark,
what records caused you to sell me the best two year old heifer in my pasture this fall; I`m pretty sure what you kept aren`t all as good; and none could be better; she`s perfect Smile ...oh, while you`re at it; take your records and tell me her number Smile
Must be some records there somewhere.  Mark's heifer, the best two year old, perfect, an ID number.  How did Mark's random heifer beat out all of your home raised heifers?  Is it a matter of records, period, or is it the records that each person uses?  It is a lot like sports.  Football season upon us so the winner is known by the final score.  But the papers and reports are full of yards passing, yards rushing, interceptions, punts, average punt distance, ...  Why?

 How did Mark's random heifer beat out all of your home raised heifers? my parentage; his poor culling protocol Smile or random?

But the papers and reports are full of yards passing, yards rushing, interceptions, punts, average punt distance, ...  Why

to give those making a living off the game a job and to promote the game...sound familiar? If the statistics are so meaningful, why play the game?

Penhookers do not pay true value or they would never make their money. They pay under value and then resell quickly with little skin in the game to make their profit.

who is worse...the registered breeder selling over valued stock jocolor  based solely {he`s registered; therefore, he`s better; old bulls sell through the yards...auctioneer "got the papers right here, boys}} on a paper fallacy game; or a penhooker buying under-value based on his wit? I make no great distinction...


I see few interested in breeding cattle in a system that builds the herd from within the herd.

correction...I see few interested in breeding buying cattle in a system that builds the herd from within the herd... that can be changed by demonstrating the commercial superiority of a system like tru-line versus the registered game...


why don`t we just pound them all at three? if they`re good enough; there will be a son in the un-identified retained mob from a good identified{by selected type} cow...
Sounds noble but if I have never seen that to be practical.

not only practical but profitable; what cheaper/more productive way to develop 2/maybe 3 yr old bulls than to use them as yearlings?...one yearling{but he`s for sale} of 7 we used will be retained...Pete stays; small extra curricular, inbreeding experiment{only real need of a pedigree for me; that very limited}...977 is back; sold after use as a yearling; based on progeny, price, and friendship...a page out of Falloon`s book ...Fenley`s just hanging out here until he dies; mostly out of nostalgia instead of any real use...the next generation takes over come spring...
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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:16 pm

MKeeney wrote:

Quote:
I was thinking it would consist of more like 500 partial herds expecting about a 5% success rate over time



I don`t like those odds; maybe it wasn`t human nature that prevented Tru-Line formation; maybe it was satistics...but of course, 500 partial herds with a 5% success rate over 500 years would create a lot of good cattle but the same question arises, if it takes 95% milk to make the cream, who drinks the milk?

Geez Mike, now your asking me to explain my explanations. Smile In that stream where you go a fishing for time, I wondered if you spent those coupla hours you caught reading very slowly and thoroughly Kent's ENTIRE post, http://www.vbarvwagyu.com/article3-wagyu.htm . Did you also read between the lines, or, did you just skim through it? For those like CC who want "my reflections" to be a learning place, I'd suggest any serious minded cattle breeder spend more than a few hours not just reading, but digesting the content of that Wagyu website history to contemplate the effects over time of inbreeding, incrossing, outcrossing & crossbreeding; selection methodology to fix traits; and time. It is somewhat correlated to MK's concerns.

"Reflections by LL" is by no means a "how to" encyclopedia, it is simply a public chronology sharing my own learning process. I often use examples, quotes, statements or parables to compare common principles that can be applied to different situations. Some might consider it to be an educational process, hence I plagiarized Kendra's words and I apologize if they were taken out of context. I thought they were too worthy for only me to hear. Now MK wants me to correlate milk and cream with beef breeding. Smile MK's fishin' already taught him who drinks the milk and who makes the cream so I'll skip that and talk about his not liking the odds.

OK, first let's look at the odds of traditional methodology - of all the thousands of bulls born every year, of those hundreds that might be evaluated, how many end up in the "top" 5% of the breed in even just a single trait? If your fishin' to catch the biggest fish in the stream, the "cream of the crop", what percent is that of the ENTIRE crop? What percent get trophies? Wouldn't it be difficult to quantify or even be significant?

Of all the thousands or millions of cows alive today, what percent are chosen to be ET' cows? Of those chosen, what percent are successfully improving themselves?

After 200 years of traditional selection, compared to 500 years of traditional selection from now, what will be the percentage of "good cattle" then compared to now?

Oh, I almost forgot - MK, didn't you remember once we learned how to HOMOgenize milk, whoever drinks it gets an equal amount of cream....you've gotta quit reverting back, just pull the trigger Smile

LL wondering when genuine fair value exchange will be our first consideration
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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:34 pm

Well Mike, when you asked me to post some of my innermost thoughts on the Keeney’s Corner website, I had to laugh because you seem to be a such a glutton for punishment. You must have an ulterior motive since you more than anyone knows how my breeding philosophy has gone over like a lead balloon in the more glamorized high dollar segments of the registered sector. If there is one thing I have learned well, it is that cattle can be changed relatively easy but it is nearly impossible to change people. People tend to go wherever the money is, but sooner or later we learn that all that glitters is not gold : )

LL
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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Mon Oct 27, 2014 2:11 am

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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:15 am



I want to interject a comment here about this picture of #1708.   It does not look like
the same work and wear cow I always saw gracefully walking the Wye pastures.   It is not a "natural" picture,
it is a professional photo authorized by Dick Beck, the Wye "promotional" manager at that time,  prepared at
an angle and pose to mimic the show standards of the day....notice her nicely trimmed tail with a neck that
looks like a stallion ....in those days they trimmed all cattle both males and females to look like the
IDEAL STEER OF THE DAY...just thought it would be a good example for some who don't know how stupid
some things we do...actually are   Smile


I also tried to bring forth her goodness through her progeny as an owner of Lundell and the use of her other male progeny.   Disappointed, it took several years for me to recognize it was not the cow's fault, it was the TYPE OF BULLS 1708 WAS MATED TO that caused her progeny to have the inability to renew her kind......AND to recognize that her individual production records ratioing W 7-109 and Y-108 as of 1981 would not have occurred making her a "super cow" who produced four popular "herd bulls".....
AND to recognize that her individual production records ratioing W 7-109 and Y-108 as of 1981 would not have occurred making her a "super cow" who produced four popular "herd bulls", by our traditional visual definition of a herd bull, IF SHE WOULD'VE BEEN MATED BACK TO HER OWN KIND.  The last information I have on this cows daus avg progeny weanig ratios was - 95, thinking if her daus were poor producers, why would I think her sons would produce high producing cows like their dam    Smile
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:55 am

MK wrote:
who is worse...the registered breeder selling over valued stock jocolor based solely {he`s registered; therefore, he`s better; old bulls sell through the yards...auctioneer "got the papers right here, boys}} on a paper fallacy game; or a penhooker buying under-value based on his wit? I make no great distinction...

I totally agree. It is a matter of the character of the individual rather than their position in the cattle industry. It is a human character issue so then the registration papers are a mute point. The segment of breeders left out of this discussion of extremes are under the middle of bell curve: both commercial and registered cattle folks who are not crooks.

Regions are different. But around here a purebred bull without papers or any background is only competing with the old bull in the barn. Larry seemed to be resigned that he would not change human character. I know that I will not. The dumbest thing I could do would be to intentionally shoot myself in the foot to immediately eliminate some portion of cattle folks who might want to consider if my cattle would be helpful to them.

LL wrote:
it was the TYPE OF BULLS 1708 WAS MATED TO that caused her progeny to have the inability to renew her kind.
A quote that stuck in my mind. How do you pick the bull that lets her function? Match up ____ to the cow?
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:21 pm

I see few interested in breeding cattle in a system that builds the herd from within the herd.

correction...I see few interested in buying cattle in a system that builds the herd from within the herd...

I agree with both
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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:03 pm

RobertMac wrote:
I see few interested in breeding cattle in a system that builds the herd from within the herd.

correction...I see few interested in buying cattle in a system that builds the herd from within the herd...

I agree with both

my favorite quote from my favorite patriot; pretty much explains my position...not only is there a bliss in unknowing; there is a fair amount of innocence...

Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour; a long habit of not thinking a thing WRONG, gives it a superficial appearance of being RIGHT, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason.

Thomas Paine

gosh, I thought knowledge set you free instead of making one guilty Shocked ...second thought, being around Larry kept you on a bit of a guilt trip...there was some pardoning effect since he had once been guilty too...the net of effect of having no papers has been a great alleviation of aggravation for me; a first cut of sorts...my best customer ever ran a seed business {a sideline to farming; that`s a unique turn} said he didn`t want any damn papers; just wanted results...my greatest compliment ever came from Glenn as well; he told me to go buy him some Hereford bulls; cowherd was getting too black...
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:49 pm

“There is beauty in truth, even if it's painful. Those who lie, twist life so that it looks tasty to the lazy, brilliant to the ignorant, and powerful to the weak. But lies only strengthen our defects. They don't teach anything, help anything, fix anything or cure anything. Nor do they develop one's character, one's mind, one's heart or one's soul.”
― José N. Harris

“In a world of lies and liars, an honest work of art is always an act of social responsibility.”
― Robert McKee, Story: Style, Structure, Substance, and the Principles of Screenwriting

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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:39 pm

Mike said....
Mark,
what records caused you to sell me the best two year old heifer in my pasture this fall; I`m pretty sure what you kept aren`t all as good; and none could be better; she`s perfect Smile ...oh, while you`re at it; take your records and tell me her number

Trying to keep up with 12 hours of Medicare classes this weekend allowed me to miss an interesting statement. All I can say Mike is that since I do not have any 2's here you must have gotten them all - my best, worst and everything in between. Since you have about as many records on those heifers as I do maybe I can tell you some stories about her in a few weeks depending on my memory and being able to read her tag. In the meantime I will just be happy having a happy customer.

As for penhookers, no lower cattle scum than the registered breeder that continually promotes how many years they have been in the registered Angus business but their sale cattle only carry their ranch name for 1 generation. I call them registered penhookers. They sure are not breeders.
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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:59 am

Mark Day wrote:
Mike said....
Mark,
what records caused you to sell me the best two year old heifer in my pasture this fall; I`m pretty sure what you kept aren`t all as good; and none could be better; she`s perfect Smile ...oh, while you`re at it; take your records and tell me her number

Trying to keep up with 12 hours of Medicare classes this weekend allowed me to miss an interesting statement. All I can say Mike is that since I do not have any 2's here you must have gotten them all - my best, worst and everything in between. Since you have about as many records on those heifers as I do maybe I can tell you some stories about her in a few weeks depending on my memory and being able to read her tag. In the meantime I will just be happy having a happy customer.

As for penhookers, no lower cattle scum than the registered breeder that continually promotes how many years they have been in the registered Angus business but their sale cattle only carry their ranch name for 1 generation. I call them registered penhookers. They sure are not breeders.

btw Mark, they ALL were pretty good; actually it was me that culled her; thinking she was too small to send to MO; gotta get a pic soon ; sowing grass/wheat today...Max-Q Fescue to the rescue of weaning weight and "fertility"...Smile
watched The Greatest  Game ever Played for the umpteenth time last night laying{kent, afraid to use lying  Very Happy } on the couch; remembered the couch in the other corner; Larry sitting on the fireplace hearth, smoking away...... sorry, but you`ll to indulge  
a change in greatest compliments...2005, Sat night after the "gathering" here...
"I know you`re tired, but I need to talk to you..." cheers
let me get a coke and wake up a little...
I`m thinking I`m going to quit registering the cattle
well, wasn`t that the plan from the inception of Tru-line? do it

Time will make more converts than reason.
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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:06 am

the two most asked questions of the registered, pedigreed,  performance recorded, epd`ed, outcrossed, crossbred, "purebred" business...

Has anyone seen this bull or calves by him?

Do you have calves by him?


Last edited by MKeeney on Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:12 am

a better question

LL wrote:it was the TYPE OF BULLS 1708 WAS MATED TO that caused her progeny to have the inability to renew her kind. A quote that stuck in my mind.
How do you pick the bull that lets her function? Match up ____ to the cow?

avoiding the ones who excelled on yearling weight would be a start...
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Tue Oct 28, 2014 1:55 pm

MKeeney wrote:
the two most asked questions of the registered, pedigreed,  performance recorded, epd`ed, outcrossed, crossbred, "purebred" business...

Has anyone seen this bull or calves by him?

Do you have calves by him?

It has been 20 years or more since we have used an A/I bull which has not been seen in the flesh or progeny have not been seen in the flesh. Not surprisingly that almost coincides with when Kevin and I took over the stud - I cannot imagine using something off a photo or on a semen salesman recommendation - photos tell you nothing really and a salesman is a salesman at the end of the day - their agenda is rarely their customer's. Actually anyone else's agenda, breeding or otherwise, is never your own so why rely on anything but your own?
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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:10 pm

MKeeney wrote:
the two most asked questions of the registered, pedigreed,  performance recorded, epd`ed, outcrossed, crossbred, "purebred" business...

Has anyone seen this bull or calves by him?

Do you have calves by him?

add two more questions...

anyone seen the dam?
anyone seen daughters?

right on Megan, when you close the gene pool, you can answer yes to all 4 questions...
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:24 pm

Mike,

Glad I was able to be a part of those gatherings. Those experiences certainly have influenced my habits now.
Semen testing herd bulls in the morning. Outcome will influence how many calves born in 2015 will have tag placed in their ear with a K or D on it.  Simple way to record the breeding of the calf's sire. That would certainly mean as much to a stranger as an individual number.


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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:41 am

Mark Day wrote:
Mike,

Glad I was able to be a part of those gatherings. Those experiences experiences certainly have influenced my habits now.
Semen testing herd bulls in the morning. Outcome will influence how many calves born in 2015 will have tag placed in their ear with a K or D on it.  Simple way to record the breeding of the calf's sire. That would certainly mean as much to a stranger as an individual number.
I could sell a two year bull; K or D tagged; doesn`t matter...needs a touch of frame...got one? call me...
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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:17 am

Eddie mentioned human nature...different perspectives...example...my perspective, Foxx gets one right; pity the bent over boy holding his ankles that wrote this...

When you have Clarence Van Dyke volunteer to help you breed cattle and you don't at least listen a little,There is little too no hope. Not being a naysayer but WTF are you thinking?

remember the fertility claim...typical...

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PostSubject: Re: Fat Boy ????   Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:02 am

sunset out Megan`s dining room window...just for the heck of it, after Leroy suggested yesterday we should visit NZ, I have started to monitor Megan`s weather Very Happy 63 degree F right now; showers in the forecast Smile

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