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df



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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:25 pm

Jenkins and Ferrel did lots of work at MARC. One study that I thought was real interesting was the confinement of cows and feeding them 3 different levels of feed to simulate a tough, moderate and lush environment.

In terms of just performance, the British breeds did better in tough environments (no surprise). In the low feed resource environment, the Red Poll cattle did the best as they were the only ones that could get bred back consistently even when BCS dropped to a 3. All other breeds simply quit cycling.

In a moderate feed resource environment, there was no statistical difference.

In the high feed resource environment, the Continental cattle win because they have plenty of feed so get bred and raise the biggest calves. the British cattle just got fat.

This is not really new information and I realize they confined the cows so the daily feed could be measured. And they were just looking at the amount of calf weaned. I don't know if post-weaning performance, carcass traits or marketability was considered. However, from just "how much calf is weaned", this study probably did a decent job of characterizing breeds.

________________________________

I would assume that something would change if we change the growth curve. However, nobody really knows and I would think somebody would give it a shot. I can't imagine it is much worse than the pain the cattle industry went through in the 80's and 90's with bulls like Wild Turkey and Harrison. Maybe we need to find some McKensie semen just to remind us how bad it was!!!



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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:19 am

How much of the future research will be producer driven since university and extension budgets keep getting cut? Genomics and measuring actual production will help answer some of the questions and raise more. Linebreeding can be used to fixed desired/traits genes but breeders will need to becarefull of "founder effect". Not all animals require the same amount of feed to gain a pound. With the use of modern technology will we be able to breed strains of cattle when terminally crossed will out produce either parent like hybred corn? Gavin Fallons latest news letter may be of interest to some.

http://www.pinebank.co.nz/newsletter.php


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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:35 am

patb wrote:
How much of the future research will be producer driven since university and extension budgets keep getting cut? Genomics and measuring actual production will help answer some of the questions and raise more. Linebreeding can be used to fixed desired/traits genes but breeders will need to becarefull of "founder effect". Not all animals require the same amount of feed to gain a pound. With the use of modern technology will we be able to breed strains of cattle when terminally crossed will out produce either parent like hybred corn?
Pat, what to you mean by "will we be able"? There is no "wiil we" question about it; we ARE ABLE right now...Why are you concerned about more research...we know more than we are applying right now.
"Careful of founder effects" implies what?
Do you think "not all animals require the same to gain a lb" will be the same genetics in both the feedlot and pasture? And what do you suppose those animals will give up to be "efficient"? did you pay any real attention to the pictures of the Shoshone "feed efficient" cows? is that the kind of cow you want in your pasture? I sure don`t.
why must we complicate everything with cost, when it can be so simple? Being on the cutting edge, has great appeal evidently; taking more measures is a great registered selling trick; if you measure enough, you can always have something positive to footnote or shout from the auction block...being backward and profitable just can`t be in vogue I guess.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:43 am

Good Morning Kit,
good to see you up early reading Keeney`s Corner, this fine Sunday morning; there`s a lot of good material here from some very successful cattlemen ...I`m sure you`ll put in a word for the site in some upcoming newsletters...thanks in advance!
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:45 am

It appears to me that an index that measures MATERNAL traits would be appropriate for maternal strains of cattle. Terminal indexes would benefit terminal strains.

Single trait selection has not been very successful long term; only multiple trait selection with economic knowledge seems to work for swine and poultry industries.
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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:03 am

MKeeney wrote:
Good Morning Kit,
good to see you up early reading Keeney`s Corner, this fine Sunday morning; there`s a lot of good material here from some very successful cattlemen ...I`m sure you`ll put in a word for the site in some upcoming newsletters...thanks in advance!

I no longer get any of Kit's email's etc seams I questioned his logic and anyone who thinks for themselves gets terminated oh well.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:51 am

df wrote:
It appears to me that an index that measures MATERNAL traits would be appropriate for maternal strains of cattle. Terminal indexes would benefit terminal strains.

Single trait selection has not been very successful long term; only multiple trait selection with economic knowledge seems to work for swine and poultry industries.
oh, and what numbers would you put in a maternal index? and how would you determine whether good was up or down in each of those numbers?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:13 am

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
It appears to me that an index that measures MATERNAL traits would be appropriate for maternal strains of cattle. Terminal indexes would benefit terminal strains.

Single trait selection has not been very successful long term; only multiple trait selection with economic knowledge seems to work for swine and poultry industries.
oh, and what numbers would you put in a maternal index? and how would you determine whether good was up or down in each of those numbers?

That is a great question for those who don't use indexes. Especially for traits with low heritability. How do you know the animal you choose to keep is better or worse than the animal you cull? The breeders ability to distinguish which is better is complicated by the low heritability of the trait. Yet, in a maternal index, traits that are relatively low in heritability are the ones most important in economics.

So the question for those who are trying to make better "momma cows", how are you improving the momma cow? Is it only by keeping the cow size moderate enough that most of them get bred back and milk production low enough that they never get too thin?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:22 am

I don`t think cow size has much to do with who gets bred back; certainly, not to the extent of milk...which, btw, EPD`S define most poorly of all the traits...
so, once again...tell me the ideal cow with numbers....that is a must, beforre you can create an index...while I wait on you, mr. show-me-select heifer Smile , and others to tell me this as I have for some time now, I`m just going with avoiding exremes and fewer problems...why isn`t adjusting cow numbers to grass a far superior tool to trying to adjust genetics to grass?
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:51 am

MKeeney wrote:
I don`t think cow size has much to do with who gets bred back; certainly, not to the extent of milk...which, btw, EPD`S define most poorly of all the traits...
so, once again...tell me the ideal cow with numbers....that is a must, beforre you can create an index...while I wait on you, mr. show-me-select heifer Smile , and others to tell me this as I have for some time now, I`m just going with avoiding exremes and fewer problems...why isn`t adjusting cow numbers to grass a far superior tool to trying to adjust genetics to grass?

How about adjusting both to the availalbe forage? It has been my experience that some animals have a hard time living on grass/hay diet.
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:55 am

Maternal index would be somehow optimizing size and milk, plus height. Plus somehow including functional conformation evaluations like udders and feet. Which would be pretty tough to do. Maybe stayability can be a reasonable proxy.

You could use $en, but Fairfield hi guy suggests that one doesn't quite get the job done.

Psychologically, for a maternal index to be useful for the masses, would it be necessary for the highest indexing parents to actually be what most considered the best? With $en, very dry animals ( like the progeny of the possibly Italian bull discussed herein) or very poor performing animals are going to get pushed to the "top" of the index, when very few folks would actually consider them the best. You'd have to fix that somehow. If it was necessary for the top indexing cattle to actually be the best maternal cattle, I think youd have to do like mike said and identify the optimum epd, rig the index to have those at the top-- it sounds really hard to me, even ignoring the environmental differences.

And the environmental differences-- what you gonna do with that one? Is optimal the same for everybody, no matter what's growing in their pasture?

It sounds really hard.

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MikeJ



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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:10 pm

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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:19 pm

I think that's right-- just a marketing tool, a number you can put in an ad. Almost certainly a waste of time and effort.
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MikeJ



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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:22 pm

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Last edited by MikeJ on Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:48 pm

I think I'm serious mike. Pretty sure it's too much of a moving target re different environments, and too much subjectivity.

Would require a lot of infrastructure to do anything like the dairy folks do, and "type" judgments would be pretty unreliable without such an infrastructure. You'd need a lot more data, not the least of which would be many more mature weights and mature heights.

Might be interesting, but it seems kinda hard to do, and I'm not too sure you need it.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:28 pm

why not reach a point where you close the herd, line, or strain, and put your name on what meets your standards? yes, that takes some time to build the reliability and then the reputation of the stock...but maybe less time than to build an index?
Kinda like mapping the genome; it`s one thing to map the genome, it`s quite another to idenify it...only to have it prove relationships we should already know...would not an index verify what we should already know as a good cow?
Are we afraid of being un-scienitific or un-profitable?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:47 pm

MKeeney wrote:
why not reach a point where you close the herd, line, or strain, and put your name on what meets your standards? yes, that takes some time to build the reliability and then the reputation of the stock...but maybe less time than to build an index?
Kinda like mapping the genome; it`s one thing to map the genome, it`s quite another to idenify it...only to have it prove relationships we should already know...would not an index verify what we should already know as a good cow?
Are we afraid of being un-scienitific or un-profitable?

The index is already built; what is lacking is data from producers.
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:57 pm

MKeeney wrote:
why not reach a point where you close the herd, line, or strain, and put your name on what meets your standards? yes, that takes some time to build the reliability and then the reputation of the stock...but maybe less time than to build an index?
Kinda like mapping the genome; it`s one thing to map the genome, it`s quite another to idenify it...only to have it prove relationships we should already know...would not an index verify what we should already know as a good cow?
Are we afraid of being un-scienitific or un-profitable?

I think the problem is in the "we should already know" clause. Some folks in the cattle business have been looking at cows for several decades. Some have been looking at cows for a year or two, so the knowledge varies greatly. The reality is that any chimp with a calculator can be taught how to use EPDs or indices to breed cattle. If the EPDs/indices are reliable and the chimp understands what they mean, he'll almost certainly breed a significant number of cattle that are genetically capable of doing what he was breeding for. Breeding cattle for traits not measured by EPDs/indices -- well, you gotta do a bit more work, look at a lot of cattle, talk to a lot of folks, buy a bunch of cows and throw them away--

But, yeah, the index would identify what we already know as a good cow. Assuming we already know what is a good cow.
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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:53 pm

good points...slowly we learn...we know now that taking a group of bulls from different weaning comtemporary groups and feeding them together makes yearling EPD`s less valid, instead of more valid...yet, it remains because marketing is more important than more accurate data...
will science come full circle to strains where the measurement is of the hybrid progeny in a crossing system, or will we keep measuring individual differences and pretend it has great significance, when it has very little...AND COULD BE AN OVERALL NEGATIVE
Larry told the story of Shannon whupping them all at Midland, AND WE SEE WHERE THAT LEAD...why do we think today`s winners lead anyplace different?
how does that maternal index measure feed cost DF?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:40 pm

MKeeney wrote:
good points...slowly we learn...we know now that taking a group of bulls from different weaning comtemporary groups and feeding them together makes yearling EPD`s less valid, instead of more valid...yet, it remains because marketing is more important than more accurate data...
will science come full circle to strains where the measurement is of the hybrid progeny in a crossing system, or will we keep measuring individual differences and pretend it has great significance, when it has very little...AND COULD BE AN OVERALL NEGATIVE
Larry told the story of Shannon whupping them all at Midland, AND WE SEE WHERE THAT LEAD...why do we think today`s winners lead anyplace different?
how does that maternal index measure feed cost DF?

I did not make the index but my understanding is it calculates net by using all of the EPDs. A cost must be associated with forage and concentrates. It probably uses SPA data or something similar to determine average amount of feed fed in winter.

Would this website help you make decisions specific to your farm?

http://ert.agsci.colostate.edu/
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:46 pm

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
good points...slowly we learn...we know now that taking a group of bulls from different weaning comtemporary groups and feeding them together makes yearling EPD`s less valid, instead of more valid...yet, it remains because marketing is more important than more accurate data...
will science come full circle to strains where the measurement is of the hybrid progeny in a crossing system, or will we keep measuring individual differences and pretend it has great significance, when it has very little...AND COULD BE AN OVERALL NEGATIVE
Larry told the story of Shannon whupping them all at Midland, AND WE SEE WHERE THAT LEAD...why do we think today`s winners lead anyplace different?
how does that maternal index measure feed cost DF?

I did not make the index but my understanding is it calculates net by using all of the EPDs. A cost must be associated with forage and concentrates. It probably uses SPA data or something similar to determine average amount of feed fed in winter.

Would this website help you make decisions specific to your farm?

http://ert.agsci.colostate.edu/
no Smile
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:45 pm

You'd need lots of data on lots of things, including hard to get stuff like udder scores and feet scores (if there is such a thing). But if you had all that data, a useful way to make a maternal index could be modeled on the Charolais Terminal Sire Index.

http://charolaisusa.com/terminalprofitindex.html

Its made to have the user enter lots of different variables to actually help him find the best terminal Charolais bulls. Its really pretty neat, and I've never seen any reason to think it was misused as just advertising (it can't really be-- the result changes based on the users inputs).

On the flip side, Im not sure anyone has ever used it to find a bull. But who knows?

Anyway, set something like this up with maternal traits -- maybe that'd be worth something.
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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:06 pm

how can I close the herd, committ all my cattle to my breeding goals, and still have meaningful EPD`S tied into a data base with enough reference sires?
well, obviously, there needs to be only one data base, and it would figure parent stock epds from crossbred data...can that be done? Meaningful Epd`s on linebred parent stock can only be derived from progeny...
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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:07 pm

MKeeney wrote:
how can I close the herd, committ all my cattle to my breeding goals, and still have meaningful EPD`S tied into a data base with enough reference sires?
well, obviously, there needs to be only one data base, and it would figure parent stock epds from crossbred data...can that be done? Meaningful Epd`s on linebred parent stock can only be derived from progeny...
...only if the progeny are used in registered herd/s.
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MikeJ



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PostSubject: Re: Economics and registered marketing   Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:27 pm

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