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76 Bar



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PostSubject: Speaking of Aberrant Behavior   Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:03 pm

Curious if anyone has had (emphasis on past tense ) a herd bull that suckled cows.
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of Aberrant Behavior   Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:59 pm

once had a breeder tell me that was foreplay. affraid
course a lot of his cows sported nose gear.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of Aberrant Behavior   Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:49 pm

we had pigs that sucked cows; and cows that would let them...and as a kid heading out with pail to milk the family cow where ever I found her on summer pasture, I always feared finding this scene told to me by neighbors that had been verified with their own eyes... Shocked 

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-milk-snake.htm

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76 Bar



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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of Aberrant Behavior   Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:06 pm

larkota wrote:
once had a breeder tell me that was foreplay. affraid
course a lot of his cows sported nose gear.
Can only speak for myself…the foreplay that led to hind play came full circle if you get my drift.
Assuredly no artificial rhinal accouterments here but I do hold a wide and wet muzzle in high esteem. Cool
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76 Bar



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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of Aberrant Behavior   Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:29 pm

MKeeney wrote:
we had pigs that sucked cows; and cows that would let them...and as a kid heading out with pail to milk the family cow where ever I found her on summer pasture, I always feared finding this scene told to me by neighbors that had been verified with their own eyes... Shocked 
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-milk-snake.htm

Thanks for reminding me of that oft repeated, asinine urban legend. Rolling Eyes
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of Aberrant Behavior   Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:05 am

Haven't witnessed it myself but have heard of it happening anecdotally - the general consensus is that a bull who does it has likely been left on their mother far too long or had other nurse cows in with him - no doubt a curve bender in the making. I am surprised that Angus cows would stand for it - our girls guard their udders as if they are the gates to eternal salvation and only the baby that they pushed into the world is allowed anywhere near and most of them can count very well in the event of would be milk robbers - I don't think any bull would be fool enough to try - they pack a fairly good kick!
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76 Bar



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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of Aberrant Behavior   Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:50 pm

Curious as to how you arrived at the conclusion that the bull and/or females involved were Angus? Regardless, the discovery was nonetheless shocking if not patently revolting. He was primarily with 1st calf heifers and a smattering of 2nd calvers. As an experienced cattleman, I'm sure you're cognizant that the former occasionally demonstrates an exasperating naiveté. Be that as it may, the bull was exceedingly clever in exploiting his victims. Bided his time until the rightful calf was nursing, stealthily approached from behind, momentarily nuzzled and licked his prospect's rump and then surreptitiously and aggressively commenced sucking hind tit. Even more remarkable,if detection was eminent he instantly ceased and pursued yet another vicarious opportune adventure. As abhorrent as the experience was it appears as though it was an extreme fluke and suffice it to say, highly educational. The same can be said for my experience of 1 female out of 5000 +/- births over a 40 yr time span that benignly balked at motherhood. FWIW…I greatly appreciate cows who have the instinct & intelligence to kindly & protectively babysit off spring of their herd mates. Your comment that your cows "wouldn't allow other calves near them" indicates otherwise. I'm all ears.
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of Aberrant Behavior   Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:15 pm

Sorry didn't mean to assume Angus - they are just what I have experience in.

Yes he sounds like a real robber baron - and younger cows likely to be more lenient about thievery. Do you think perhaps he was orphaned or from a very poor milker to develop such skills?

Our cows do form "play centre" type arrangements - usually based on family or hierarchy connections however other's calves are only benignly tolerated, certainly not allowed close to any udders other than their own dams - over familiarity even between the calves when they are little is not encouraged or appreciated by some cows. I guess our cows have evolved a different socio order - they are grazed in paddock arrangements which, while being large in some cases, are not range management by any stretch of the imagination. Apart from the occasionally ill placed working dog from time to time they do not have any real threats or risks to their calves. A dog can turn a scene of domestic bliss into chaos and carnage so generally they are kept well away until the calves are several months old and don't really work them until they are weaned.

Because the cows live in closer quarters they are much more wary of milk robbers and we do not discourage their behaviour as milk thieving disguises poor mothering or milking ability of the thieves mother and upsets the weaning weight ratio of those thieved from - both cow and calf.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of Aberrant Behavior   Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:28 pm

pukerimu wrote:
Sorry didn't mean to assume Angus - they are just what I have experience in.

Yes he sounds like a real robber baron - and younger cows likely to be more lenient about thievery.  Do you think perhaps he was orphaned or from a very poor milker to develop such skills?

Our cows do form "play centre" type arrangements - usually based on family or hierarchy connections however other's calves are only benignly tolerated, certainly not allowed close to any udders other than their own dams - over familiarity even between the calves when they are little is not encouraged or appreciated by some cows.  I guess our cows have evolved a different socio order - they are grazed in paddock arrangements which, while being large in some cases, are not range management by any stretch of the imagination.  Apart from the occasionally ill placed working dog from time to time they do not have any real threats or risks to their calves.  A dog can turn a scene of domestic bliss into chaos and carnage so generally they are kept well away until the calves are several months old and don't really work them until they are weaned.

Because the cows live in closer quarters they are much more wary of milk robbers and we do not discourage their behaviour as milk thieving disguises poor mothering or milking ability of the thieves mother and upsets the weaning weight ratio of those thieved from - both cow and calf.


Megan , do you select or cull on weaning weight ratio...or both; or maybe select and cull are the same process ?
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of Aberrant Behavior   Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:17 pm

Like everything Mike it is part of the equation - if we have a cow which consistently weans a calf which is not as heavy as it's peers we watch - if the calf then consistently matches or outperforms it's peers at a later date (I can think of two cows at least which fall into that category) then the cow is considered a "good cow" and she stays - if she weans runts who go onto be nothing more or less than runts then there is little point in her retaining her place in the herd - our herd size is not large enough to have free loaders - they are given enough chances to replace themselves in the stud herd or put a bull through the sale ring - if they don't they may be a reasonable commercial cow who calves every year but they are not one of our stud cows and there is no room for them.

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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of Aberrant Behavior   Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:51 am

pukerimu wrote:
Like everything Mike it is part of the equation - if we have a cow which consistently weans a calf which is not as heavy as it's peers we watch - if the calf then consistently matches or outperforms it's peers at a later date (I can think of two cows at least which fall into that category) then the cow is considered a "good cow" and she stays - if she weans runts who go onto be nothing more or less than runts then there is little point in her retaining her place in the herd - our herd size is not large enough to have free loaders - they are given enough chances to replace themselves in the stud herd or put a bull through the sale ring - if they don't they may be a reasonable commercial cow who calves every year but they are not one of our stud cows and there is no room for them.


just zapping at ya a little Smile ..weaning ratios seem so status quo, mainstream to me; especially since the foundation sire of much of the best maternal I`ve enjoyed profitably over the years ratioed 90 weaning and no better yearling...

Divergent total performance breeding programs have been the initial sincere courtship between the seedstock supplier and the commercial producer. The ultimate marriage between these segments can be stimulated by designed and pre-evaluated linecrossing systems. LL

Megan, where are the heaviest calves produced in NZ...in the seedstock or the commercial herds? I believe the heaviest calves should be in commercial herds; given the same environment...
that`s a basic tru-line principle IMO...
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of Aberrant Behavior   Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:51 am

Honestly Mike I could not tell you - so many commercial cattlemen who have breeding cows also finish the progeny or sell them as older cattle in the sale yards so the weaning weight is not as important to them as the whole picture of the age and weight that they go out the gate. Despite the boffins banging desks and shouting that the most economic thing to do is finish a steer or heifer at 20 months (before the second winter) under the NZ beef regime the same animal is usually worth more in the sale yards to someone who does want to take it through the second winter and sell a heavy steer or heifer fattened on the following spring's grass.

We would hope that most of our buyers have weaners that are as heavy as ours as although our cows probably do not do it as hard as a longhorn in Texas (although dry is easier to live in than constant wet and cold) they certainly do it as hard as the average NZ angus cow. We visited some recently acquired clients the other day and the boss was envious to see the grass and contour onto which newly weaned calves had been shifted - much superior to those conditions that our weaners are "enjoying" at the moment. Until the sale bulls go off the property pretty much everything else plays second fiddle in the grass stakes - finely tuned machine of paddock and stock class rotations - bearing in mind that the ewes need to eat too.
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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of Aberrant Behavior   Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:34 am

pukerimu wrote:
Honestly Mike I could not tell you - so many commercial cattlemen who have breeding cows also finish the progeny or sell them as older cattle in the sale yards so the weaning weight is not as important to them as the whole picture of the age and weight that they go out the gate.  Despite the boffins banging desks and shouting that the most economic thing to do is finish a steer or heifer at 20 months (before the second winter) under the NZ beef regime the same animal is usually worth more in the sale yards to someone who does want to take it through the second winter and sell a heavy steer or heifer fattened on the following spring's grass.

We would hope that most of our buyers have weaners that are as heavy as ours as although our cows probably do not do it as hard as a longhorn in Texas (although dry is easier to live in than constant wet and cold) they certainly do it as hard as the average NZ angus cow.  We visited some recently acquired clients the other day and the boss was envious to see the grass and contour onto which newly weaned calves had been shifted - much superior to those conditions that our weaners are "enjoying" at the moment. Until the sale bulls go off the property pretty much everything else plays second fiddle in the grass stakes - finely tuned machine of paddock and stock class rotations - bearing in mind that the ewes need to eat too.

well yes, excellent point; the weaning weight is just a stage; final weight is the product...
I made a couple of boffins really mad when I challenged them on yearling wt  versus carcass weight discrepancies in the old AAA data...the yw was coming from registered data; but the carcass data was coming from commercial herds...
so here was a 30 lb yearling epd with the same carcass wt as an 80 lb epd yearling...mr aaa kept saying it was two different sets of data; I kept asking if epds produce different results in commercial herds, which data  is correct?

edit...and the rains ...6 inches here in the last 4 days...
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of Aberrant Behavior   Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:58 am

MKeeney wrote:
pukerimu wrote:
Honestly Mike I could not tell you - so many commercial cattlemen who have breeding cows also finish the progeny or sell them as older cattle in the sale yards so the weaning weight is not as important to them as the whole picture of the age and weight that they go out the gate.  Despite the boffins banging desks and shouting that the most economic thing to do is finish a steer or heifer at 20 months (before the second winter) under the NZ beef regime the same animal is usually worth more in the sale yards to someone who does want to take it through the second winter and sell a heavy steer or heifer fattened on the following spring's grass.

We would hope that most of our buyers have weaners that are as heavy as ours as although our cows probably do not do it as hard as a longhorn in Texas (although dry is easier to live in than constant wet and cold) they certainly do it as hard as the average NZ angus cow.  We visited some recently acquired clients the other day and the boss was envious to see the grass and contour onto which newly weaned calves had been shifted - much superior to those conditions that our weaners are "enjoying" at the moment. Until the sale bulls go off the property pretty much everything else plays second fiddle in the grass stakes - finely tuned machine of paddock and stock class rotations - bearing in mind that the ewes need to eat too.

well yes, excellent point; the weaning weight is just a stage; final weight is the product...
I made a couple of boffins really mad when I challenged them on yearling wt  versus carcass weight discrepancies in the old AAA data...the yw was coming from registered data; but the carcass data was coming from commercial herds...
so here was a 30 lb yearling epd with the same carcass wt as an 80 lb epd yearling...mr aaa kept saying it was two different sets of data; I kept asking if epds produce different results in commercial herds, which data  is correct?

edit...and the rains ...6 inches here in the last 4 days...

Seems as if you and Fla got the rain that was targeted here by TV weather prognosticators. Maybe we need rain EPDs. It does seem that 50 pounds would be 50 pounds in a new, modern, constantly updated computerized livestock model. I wonder if the pounds are creep fed pounds or fudged pounds when things go differently. Surely Mr. AAA knows!
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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of Aberrant Behavior   Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:16 am

EddieM wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
pukerimu wrote:
Honestly Mike I could not tell you - so many commercial cattlemen who have breeding cows also finish the progeny or sell them as older cattle in the sale yards so the weaning weight is not as important to them as the whole picture of the age and weight that they go out the gate.  Despite the boffins banging desks and shouting that the most economic thing to do is finish a steer or heifer at 20 months (before the second winter) under the NZ beef regime the same animal is usually worth more in the sale yards to someone who does want to take it through the second winter and sell a heavy steer or heifer fattened on the following spring's grass.

We would hope that most of our buyers have weaners that are as heavy as ours as although our cows probably do not do it as hard as a longhorn in Texas (although dry is easier to live in than constant wet and cold) they certainly do it as hard as the average NZ angus cow.  We visited some recently acquired clients the other day and the boss was envious to see the grass and contour onto which newly weaned calves had been shifted - much superior to those conditions that our weaners are "enjoying" at the moment. Until the sale bulls go off the property pretty much everything else plays second fiddle in the grass stakes - finely tuned machine of paddock and stock class rotations - bearing in mind that the ewes need to eat too.

well yes, excellent point; the weaning weight is just a stage; final weight is the product...
I made a couple of boffins really mad when I challenged them on yearling wt  versus carcass weight discrepancies in the old AAA data...the yw was coming from registered data; but the carcass data was coming from commercial herds...
so here was a 30 lb yearling epd with the same carcass wt as an 80 lb epd yearling...mr aaa kept saying it was two different sets of data; I kept asking if epds produce different results in commercial herds, which data  is correct?

edit...and the rains ...6 inches here in the last 4 days...

Seems as if you and Fla got the rain that was targeted here by TV weather prognosticators.  Maybe we need rain EPDs.  It does seem that 50 pounds would be 50 pounds in a new, modern, constantly updated computerized livestock model.  I wonder if the pounds are creep fed pounds or fudged pounds when things go differently.  Surely Mr. AAA knows!

I guess it should be 30 lbs allowing for dressing %...then there was Dr. Jones who argued in a meeting that yearling wt and slaughter weight were not related...he wasn`t very pleased that breeders rather than scientists were calling the shots...but I guess that isn`t aberrant behavior; a little thread drift here  Smile
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of Aberrant Behavior   Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:33 pm

Drift is not a problem for me with half my land under water at the moment.

Eddie, if I knew you needed rain, I would have sent you one of our thunderstorms, but beware of the imbedded tornados. Closest one tracked about 5 miles north of me.

Mike, in the end weight has to be coupled with yield grade to have an accurate assessment of product production. Over the last 10 or so years, I have kept almost all of each calf crop for 24+ months. I've watched calves that didn't wean off very well catch the rest by 2 years old and some obvious 'top of the crop' calves fall back into the pack. This is all on 100% forage with only a few months of all 'they want to eat' good quality winter annual grass. No creep fed or corn fed pounds here, but I believe they both speed up the process.
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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of Aberrant Behavior   Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:45 pm

RobertMac wrote:
Drift is not a problem for me with half my land under water at the moment.

Eddie, if I knew you needed rain, I would have sent you one of our thunderstorms, but beware of the imbedded tornados. Closest one tracked about 5 miles north of me.

Mike, in the end weight has to be coupled with yield grade to have an accurate assessment of product production. Over the last 10 or so years, I have kept almost all of each calf crop for 24+ months. I've watched calves that didn't wean off very well catch the rest by 2 years old and some obvious 'top of the crop' calves fall back into the pack. This is all on 100% forage with only a few months of all 'they want to eat' good quality winter annual grass. No creep fed or corn fed pounds here, but I believe they both speed up the process.

good points as always Robert; hang in there...
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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of Aberrant Behavior   Sat May 03, 2014 7:52 am

pukerimu wrote:
Like everything Mike it is part of the equation - if we have a cow which consistently weans a calf which is not as heavy as it's peers we watch - if the calf then consistently matches or outperforms it's peers at a later date (I can think of two cows at least which fall into that category) then the cow is considered a "good cow" and she stays - if she weans runts who go onto be nothing more or less than runts then there is little point in her retaining her place in the herd - our herd size is not large enough to have free loaders - they are given enough chances to replace themselves in the stud herd or put a bull through the sale ring - if they don't they may be a reasonable commercial cow who calves every year but they are not one of our stud cows and there is no room for them.


Megan,
have you ever analyzed the repeatability of heavy weaning heifers producing the same as cows? Where do your best producing cows come from ? the top, middle, or bottom, or random based on their weaning summary as a calf?
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PostSubject: Re: Speaking of Aberrant Behavior   Sat May 03, 2014 5:00 pm

Not analysed as in crunched numbers Mike but observed and noted. Bearing in mind that the heifer has been selected for retention already based on her families performance and therefore her expected performance, before she is even put to the bull. From then on it is usual for them to replicate their dam's, grandam's etc performance or as we would hope better it - although we have had high expectations for some years now so it is a truly exceptional heifer which then goes on to beat herself and all her relatives again and again. If they don't as a heifer, we give them the chance to outdo themselves the next year while we give the calf a chance to show it's own merit (as I have stated we have a couple of cows, families, that do not wean as good a % of their own fat backs but their calves go on to be well ahead of the pack) - if it is a double strike they do not get a third.
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