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 2014 Great Plains Gathering

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:35 pm

Larry Leonhardt wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
MVCatt wrote:
MKeeney wrote:

and here I thought going to Wulf was going to be interesting; seeing a specially bred Limmy to be used on Jersey heifers...and one of our enterprising hillbillies is doing it right here in Ky...

http://lexington.craigslist.org/grd/4442177938.html



[i]18 month old Limousin/Jersey bull for sale. Super super low birthweight, would be great for heifers. Scurred, dam and sire are both polled. Dam is a great milker. He has calves on the ground already. Asking $1100. Calls only, please leave a message


Will I get the Jersey BW? or the Limmy BW? Will I get the Jersey muscle? or the Limmy muscle? My guess would be...both...strung out over a huge inconsistent bell curve.

MV...Just guess'n

Well by the look of the front legs and feet at least he wouldn't be able to chase you quite as quick as some Limos do. That would be a bonus.

Welcome to the  hopeless era of mongrelized lotteries - I'd be more concerned with the temperament of the Jersey bull than the Limos.     Mike, could you please explain the purpose of KC Gatherings?

I`ll bet Larry and Chris dinner at the Carbon County Steak House that they can`t show me a registered Angus bull that sires less variation
of birth weight than that Jers-o-sin bull  Wink
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Larry Leonhardt



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:30 am

Chris, don't let Mike sucker you into a bet comparing a mongrel with a mongrel on mongrelized cows  Wink ... I'll bet Mike is not willing to spend $150,000 for proof just to win or lose a $50 dinner.

LL
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MVCatt



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:41 pm

Larry Leonhardt wrote:
Chris, don't let Mike sucker you into a bet comparing a mongrel with a mongrel on mongrelized cows  Wink ... I'll bet Mike is not willing to spend $150,000 for proof just to win or lose a $50 dinner.

LL

Larry,
No need to bet MK on dinner...not sure about you, but every time we've ever been out he won't let me pay (even at the convenience store in Nancy) Shocked. Back when I knew it all I owned a papered Chi-Maine bull that was pretty comparable to the BW variation I was getting with papered Angus bulls on my mongrelized cows. The BW's were heavier but both were consistently inconsistent. I've never come in the house after pulling a calf and looked at the papers for comfort, maybe some people do and that's why they feel they must have them Laughing. I still have some BW variation with the unpapered Angus bulls I now use on my mongrelized cows. Having an off the farm job I think it's to the point where it's something I can live with. In the future...to make me feel like I'm some kind of breeder...I plan on applying some selection pressure for lighter BW. But after looking at the Line One calving records I'm not holding my breathe for any type of miracles.

MV...depressingly realistic Sad
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:35 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Larry Leonhardt wrote:
Welcome to the  hopeless era of mongrolized lotteries - I'd be more concerned with the temperment of the Jersey bull than the Limos.     Mike, could you please explain the purpose of KC Gatherings?

oh, that`s an easy one for me...to spread the good news  cheers 

maybe you/we should ask,

why do people attend?

the good news is you can be commercially profitable while divesting yourself of the parasitic elements that debase the vital role of the cattle breeding profession...  cheers 
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:27 pm

Here`s a KY twilight picture of one of our Great Plains Gathering hosts; who has divested himself of the parasitic elements of the traditional mainstream



Linda Keeney is sure glad he has started bringing his wife Lisa along on travels...no, they don`t spend much time looking at cows  Very Happy 

The Cumberland River in the background ; I guess Daniel Boone, whom the 2,000,000 acre National Forest is named after,  was surely more hunter than farmer; or he would not have settled  in Kentucky  Shocked Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Thu May 01, 2014 7:37 am

I doubt this being a common theme at the gathering

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk_b33A0Cu0

so Wagyu breeders could "have had it all" ??
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Thu May 01, 2014 9:36 am

"in general as marbling increases so does milk production"  or is it the other way around?



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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Thu May 01, 2014 12:19 pm

larkota wrote:
"in general as marbling increases so does milk production"  or is it the other way around?




other way around imo...
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Thu May 01, 2014 8:00 pm

Lodging for Leroy`s place

Hampton Inn and Suites 320-763-3360
Holiday Inn 320-763-6577
Days Inn 320-762-1171
Super 8 Motel 320-763-6552
These are all in Alexandria MN -- twenty minutes away ...
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Fri May 02, 2014 8:16 am

Mike, thank you for putting us up last weekend in the honeymoon suite. fire place and air conditioning at the same time, bathtub that blows bubbles, paved roads, Cumberland Falls, you made a couple of hicks feel like a King and Queen. Lisa and I want to come back when we can spend more time sight seeing.

Chris, thank you for taking us to Blueberry Hill. I found my thrill, watching them girls chase those chairs in the rain. rained from Nancy to Kimball, life is good.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Sun May 04, 2014 7:19 am

MKeeney wrote:
I doubt this being a common theme at the gathering

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk_b33A0Cu0

so Wagyu breeders could "have had it all" ??

balanced selection?? have these university guys ever heard of crossbreeding complementarity? oh , it was them I heard the term from...the results seemed tainted by who paid the bill...
one of Gavin`s 18 laws...
progress is slowed by the square of the number of traits selected for...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Sun May 04, 2014 10:20 am

[quote="MKeeney"]
Larry Leonhardt wrote:
Welcome to the  hopeless era of mongrolized lotteries - I'd be more concerned with the temperment of the Jersey bull than the Limos.     Mike, could you please explain the purpose of KC Gatherings?

oh, that`s an easy one for me...to spread the good news  cheers 

more good news...the attendance will be international in scope ...and spread  cheers 
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Sun May 04, 2014 11:12 am

larkota wrote:
Mike, thank you for putting us up last weekend in the honeymoon suite. fire place and air conditioning at the same time, bathtub that blows bubbles, paved roads, Cumberland Falls, you made a couple of hicks feel like a King and Queen. Lisa and I want to come back when we can spend more time sight seeing.

Chris, thank you for taking us to Blueberry Hill.  I found my thrill, watching them girls chase those chairs in the rain.  rained from Nancy to Kimball, life is good.

I still owe you for many things...not the least, for helping prove what this bull can do, and what he can`t, and for returning him for me to use for those things he does do...fertility, calving ease, temperament, milk level, udder/teats...to be mated with his half sibs; and we`ll learn even more...



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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Sun May 04, 2014 1:43 pm

Mike, you, Joe, and Larry took care of the guess work for me, I had faith in the people not the numbers. Years from now I will have a DV story about how this bull spent some time in South Dakota. like how I bought the bull. how he was left the first year for Joe to use. how Joe lined up the half sib mating of 977, why I bred 977 to JOD Shoshone14-1917 daughters, why he was returned to Ky, how my grandson could ride him. now his daughters and sons will carry him forward so he will be missed but not gone.

on another topic I asked what poor traits are you willing to over look while breeding better cattle....too this day I have found 977 to be adequate with no faults.
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Tue May 06, 2014 9:34 pm



   
Larry Leonhardt wrote:
Mike, could you please explain the purpose of KC Gatherings?

Deacon wrote:
"It doesn't matter how long it takes. The only thing that matters is if you get there, or not"


I suppose you could look at Deacon`s statement differently, but using it to answer Larry`s question ...we`re four years in, and we still seeing who is "getting there"...in this case, "getting there" is merely making a beginning to breed cattle with a different methodology and purpose in mind than the traditional mainstream...I believe we`ve covered the positive reasons to begin our way; and weighed them against the negative reasons to begin our way...negative is obviously winning in the short term; measured by number of participants...we`ll measure numbers again in seven years; the lifespan of 90 % of traditional registered breeders...we`ll measure money then as well; I`m betting on us; for history is on our side... cheers 
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Thu May 08, 2014 11:37 am

Mitchell 45 miles east of me on I 90
Best Western 800-996-2376
Ramada Inn 605-996-6501
Kelly Inn Cabela Drive 605-995-0500

Chamberlain 25 west of me on I 90 and Missouri River
Kelly Inn 605-734-6061
American Lodge 605-234-0985
Howard Johnson 605-234-4222 just across the river

Kimball 1/2 mile west 1 south of me.
Regency Inn 605-778-6088 old
Dakota Winds 605-778-6215 older

sold steers yesterday May 7th
862 lbs. $1.75 = $1507
720 lbs. $2.00 = $1440
3 dinks and a popeye brought $1098 a head, cant afford to eat my mistakes.

not hard to sell bulls ....just need to cut'em
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Mon May 12, 2014 9:36 pm

a few excerpts from an email {without permission; so no name; building some suspense  Smile } from the kind of person I want to meet at Briann`s place...

I've been buying bawling calves in the fall for 8 years now, and I always buy the heavy end, typically #6-650 steers.  Crazy how the hotshot bull breeders all have #8-1000 ww but in the 8 years I've been buying calves, the calves in the barn are no bigger, and the fats I am selling this time of year are also the same weight as 8 years ago.  



When I graduated from college in the spring of 2005, I bought 50 head of broken mouth cows, and rented 6 quarters of ground from the neighbor. .................... It didn't take me long to realize that the old sale barn cows were less work/bullshit than the Reg.  Today my Reg herd is no bigger. I buy, calve out and sell roughly 5-600 head of old sale barn cows every year.  .....Today, I don't rent the ground, bought it plus more, and I know for a fact that had I just concentrated on the Reg thing, I wouldn't own any of it.  

I have no idea who the sires are on the bulls that i bought from Briann, but I do know that cows that look like 5018 at 19 years of age can't be wrong.  We've got cows that are 12-15 years old still doing their job. We usually keep their bull calves to turn out with our commercials.

isn`t it amazing how management and ingenuity can be used to make money in the cattle business as contrasted to registered marketers always blowing smoke about the latest, greatest genetic measures of registered mongrels...

maybe this link will work...

http://digitaledition.qwinc.com/publication/?i=207851
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Tue May 13, 2014 9:26 am

MKeeney wrote:
a few excerpts from an email {without permission; so no name; building some suspense  Smile } from the kind of person I want to meet at Briann`s place...

I've been buying bawling calves in the fall for 8 years now, and I always buy the heavy end, typically #6-650 steers.  Crazy how the hotshot bull breeders all have #8-1000 ww but in the 8 years I've been buying calves, the calves in the barn are no bigger, and the fats I am selling this time of year are also the same weight as 8 years ago.  



When I graduated from college in the spring of 2005, I bought 50 head of broken mouth cows, and rented 6 quarters of ground from the neighbor. .................... It didn't take me long to realize that the old sale barn cows were less work/bullshit than the Reg.  Today my Reg herd is no bigger. I buy, calve out and sell roughly 5-600 head of old sale barn cows every year.  .....Today, I don't rent the ground, bought it plus more, and I know for a fact that had I just concentrated on the Reg thing, I wouldn't own any of it.  

I have no idea who the sires are on the bulls that i bought from Briann, but I do know that cows that look like 5018 at 19 years of age can't be wrong.  We've got cows that are 12-15 years old still doing their job. We usually keep their bull calves to turn out with our commercials.

isn`t it amazing how management and ingenuity can be used to make money in the cattle business as contrasted to registered marketers always blowing smoke about the latest, greatest genetic measures of registered mongrels...

maybe this link will work...

http://digitaledition.qwinc.com/publication/?i=207851
Does this mean that no purebred/registered cattle can be financially rewarding?
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Tue May 13, 2014 11:05 am

reward most always equal to BS not market value.
question I ask myself, who stands to gain the most? if not the customer, why should he come back?
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Tue May 13, 2014 9:09 pm

larkota wrote:
reward most always equal to BS not market value.  
question I ask myself, who stands to gain the most?  if not the customer, why should he come back?

But isn't the purpose of Tru Line to keep a fixed maternal base so that the commercial producer has a chance to earn the most profit? I understand keeping startup costs down but there are advantages to not buy sale barn cattle because of why they are in the barn, what they bring with them to the farm and the variability of the resultant calves and retained heifers. But there is always more than one way to skin a cat. I'm not talking about the most promoted cattle but just a slice of the average from a decent breeder when I think registered or even purebred. The funny money crowd is a great one to avoid regardless of what you do. Is consistency not worth more than calves based on the cheapest of start up costs? Not arguing: just asking.
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mokroupa



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Thu May 22, 2014 11:47 pm


I am the person who wrote this email to Mike.

A little about me, 5th generation farmer/rancher, work with my parents and brother. My dad has a Reg Angus herd and a commercial herd (more commercials than reg) We have a bull sale, we don't use the Tru-line breeding system, but have always tried to use a "Type" of cattle that we thought worked best for us. We don't breed for what we think the customer wants, we breed for what we want and hope to find people that believe in what we do. I'm not saying tru-line is right or wrong, just isn't something that we have done. The majority, if not all the bulls we use AI, have daughters that are in production. We aren't believers in the what I call the "freak shows". Majority of our Reg herd bulls are home raised. Almost all of our com herd bulls are bulls that were No Sales in our sale. For some reason, buyers can't be convinced that a bull out of a 12 yr old cow and an 8 yr old bull will be just as good as the bulls out of "newer" genetics.

I'm certainly not saying that the Reg business isn't financially rewarding, I just didn't want to play the game that I feel is the Reg business. I didn't want to "pay my dues" so that people would patronize me. I started out buying broken mouth cows, my theory was that they are broken mouth for a reason, they have done something right to still be around at 10 years of age. I had a separate place for them so I wasn't worried about what they bring in, plus in my mind, your neighbors could have something terrible and you don't even know it. Yes there is inconsistency, however with enough head I can sort and make them consistent, just takes a little management. I fatten everything and market them through the NHTC program. Cattle this year out of sale barn cows grade 90% choice or better.

Which brings me to a conversation I had today with a well known Reg breeder in Montanta. He asked how the calves looked, to which I responded, "not real sure, I know they are healthy". First and foremost, Live calves are the only ones that will make you any $. He asked me what bulls we used, so I mentioned a few. He said "well why would you use that one, his IMF is way worse than they say". I proceeded to tell him a story about 300 steers I bought from a ranch in wyoming, 3/4 angus, 1/4 charolais, all black cattle have char breeding in them. Those steers have all been killed, graded 85% choice or better, 45% YG 1&2, and weighed 1325 lbs at 14 months of age. Doesn't sound to me like marbling is an issue.

My problem isn't necessarily the reg business, it's the people that fall into the game. Why do commercial guys go out and buy $10000 bulls because they have good #s? I've never in my 8 years had a guy call me and ask how his calves did for me, and I feed a couple thousand a year. Why do commercial guys put so much emphasis on carcass data? You can have the best marbling steer in the world, but if he is a renegade, he will be tough eating. In my opinion the main things to think about in a commercial cow herd is, longevity, femininity, good uddered and disposition. To start out selling bulls with those breeding principles, I feel I would have starved.

I also laugh about Milk EPD. Everybody talks about it, for most Reg guys in my area its a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. They all calve in Dec-Jan, ya know, cause older fat bulls breed more cows than younger lean bulls.  Wink  Anyway, why would milk matter to them, they have their cows bred 60 days before they turn out to grass. Hell, any cow could breed with the feeder wagon in front of her everyday.

A little about me and my background, hope I raised some ?'s. Drawing a blank on what more I could write. And yes, I am from Kimball sd, home town of Larkota, don't hold that against me  Wink jk

Briann has invited me to the get together, look forward to meeting those of you in attendance.

Michael

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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Fri May 23, 2014 12:10 am

Great post Mokroupa and welcome to the "Corner" - the thing that attracted me to the corner was reading what other sensible cattle people had to say - it was so refreshing to see that in fact we were not the lone voice of breeding to type and there were others like ourselves (whose breeding philosophies may or may not have been ours) who were breeding on principles, type and actual production not on what " 'cos the computer says" or fashion.  Your breeding principles sound much like ours except we were fortunate to take over a herd that had already been bred from good old cows.

Of interest the wheel appears to be turning in NZ - as we knew it would over time, when all the "good" old cows were lost to people's herds and their replacement "new and improved (again 'cos the computer says)" daughters and grand-daughters were making up the cow numbers, that the enchantment with all things "highest this" "most that" and "trait leader" for another, would start to wear thin with those who could only not see that the Emperor of estimated and expected breeding performance was in fact naked, for so long.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Fri May 23, 2014 6:13 am

mokroupa wrote:

I am the person who wrote this email to Mike.

A little about me,  5th generation farmer/rancher, work with my parents and brother.  My dad has a Reg Angus herd and a commercial herd (more commercials than reg)  We have a bull sale, we don't use the Tru-line breeding system, but have always tried to use a "Type" of cattle that we thought worked best for us.  We don't breed for what we think the customer wants, we breed for what we want and hope to find people that believe in what we do.  I'm not saying tru-line is right or wrong, just isn't something that we have done.  The majority, if not all the bulls we use AI, have daughters that are in production.  We aren't believers in the what I call the "freak shows".  Majority of our Reg herd bulls are home raised.  Almost all of our com herd bulls are bulls that were No Sales in our sale.  For some reason, buyers can't be convinced that a bull out of a 12 yr old cow and an 8 yr old bull will be just as good as the bulls out of "newer" genetics.

I'm certainly not saying that the Reg business isn't financially rewarding, I just didn't want to play the game that I feel is the Reg business.  I didn't want to "pay my dues" so that people would patronize me.  I started out buying broken mouth cows, my theory was that they are broken mouth for a reason, they have done something right to still be around at 10 years of age.  I had a separate place for them so I wasn't worried about what they bring in, plus in my mind, your neighbors could have something terrible and you don't even know it.  Yes there is inconsistency, however with enough head I can sort and make them consistent, just takes a little management.  I fatten everything and market them through the NHTC program.  Cattle this year out of sale barn cows grade 90% choice or better.  

Which brings me to a conversation I had today with a well known Reg breeder in Montanta.  He asked how the calves looked, to which I responded, "not real sure, I know they are healthy".  First and foremost, Live calves are the only ones that will make you any $.  He asked me what bulls we used, so I mentioned a few.  He said "well why would you use that one, his IMF is way worse than they say".  I proceeded to tell him a story about 300 steers I bought from a ranch in wyoming, 3/4 angus, 1/4 charolais, all black cattle have char breeding in them.  Those steers have all been killed, graded 85% choice or better, 45% YG 1&2, and weighed 1325 lbs at 14 months of age.  Doesn't sound to me like marbling is an issue.

My problem isn't necessarily the reg business, it's the people that fall into the game.  Why do commercial guys go out and buy $10000 bulls because they have good #s?  I've never in my 8 years had a guy call me and ask how his calves did for me, and I feed a couple thousand a year.  Why do commercial guys put so much emphasis on carcass data?  You can have the best marbling steer in the world, but if he is a renegade, he will be tough eating.  In my opinion the main things to think about in a commercial cow herd is, longevity, femininity, good uddered and disposition.  To start out selling bulls with those breeding principles, I feel I would have starved.

I also laugh about Milk EPD.  Everybody talks about it, for most Reg guys in my area its a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.  They all calve in Dec-Jan, ya know, cause older fat bulls breed more cows than younger lean bulls.  Wink  Anyway, why would milk matter to them, they have their cows bred 60 days before they turn out to grass.  Hell, any cow could breed with the feeder wagon in front of her everyday.

A little about me and my background, hope I raised some ?'s.  Drawing a blank on what more I could write.  And yes, I am from Kimball sd, home town of Larkota, don't hold that against me  Wink jk

Briann has invited me to the get together, look forward to meeting those of you in attendance.

Michael    

Michael, Glad to hear your background and welcome. Part of your commercial bulls are no sales. When and with what criteria do you pick out bulls to use in the registered cows? A round-about way of asking if you select based on the cow or prior to collecting weaning weight data or any other #s to use as a reference. How would you describe your cow "type" beyond the convenience and economical traits? Do you have a bull "type"?
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:52 pm

The allure of just being with down to earth , honest cattle breeders while seeing beautiful new cattle country has prompted Harry Ward to call...I guess Sally was very satisfied with her first Gathering in O Canada  cheers  and she and Harry are driving up bringing another couple to the Great Plains Gathering...
a tribute to the kind of hosts we have had; and will enjoy once again this year... cheers
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Great Plains Gathering   Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:15 am

A major genetic contributors to these cows were raised on irrigated pastures, beet tops, even dry lotted at times on  Shocked  Shocked  corn silage and hay...it appears they have learned their way around range country pretty well...



a huntaway dog?

maybe not as sure footed as mountain goats naturally bred for an environment...



but pretty sure footed...hopefully, those breeders on the road less traveled can be as stable  Smile 



Megan, this is Wyoming`s version of wintering in the hills  Smile 



everyone is welcome to ride, hike, or however we can get to where the cows/calves are on Monday morning Aug 4...more details coming as we slowly bring this gathering into focus...even if we can`t find a cow; what a great place to find yourself  Smile Smile
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