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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Genetics...another All Academic moment   Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:18 pm

Mark Day wrote:
Maybe a stupid question but why can't a top performing natural service son with AI bulls all over the pedigree breed terminal as well as a proven AI sire? It seems from my experience that a $1500 maternal type Keeney bull sires similar to his very best. As meticulous as a breeder as Mr. Larry is and he just opens the gait.

I'm sure those natural service sons with AI bulls all over the pediree would breed terminal as well as a proven AI sire. After all thats where the AI bulls come from.
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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Genetics...another All Academic moment   Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:26 pm

Mark Day wrote:
Maybe a stupid question but why can't a top performing natural service son with AI bulls all over the pedigree breed terminal as well as a proven AI sire? It seems from my experience that a $1500 maternal type Keeney bull sires similar to his very best. As meticulous as a breeder as Mr. Larry is and he just opens the gait.
ABSOLUTELY Mark...you can buy bulls for $1800, probably $1500, all day long that match AI stud bull numbers, but not the proof...the AI companies have the 1 in 5000 that bred his EPDS; not by breeding him in advance, but by finding him through progeny...SO...Dennis, who has to eat the calves by the 4,999 bulls it took to find the one that excels...who drinks all the milk used to find the cream? what a helter-skelter way to breed cattle...the fact that Mark Gardiner must keep interest in ALL his bulls to find the outlier defies everything I thought cattle was supposed to be about...predictability...the predictability Anderson and Dennis is offering is after one hell of a sort..is that satisfactory odds to be offering commercial breeders? why have breeds Dennis, if numbers work so well?
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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Genetics...another All Academic moment   Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:32 pm

Quote :
I'm sure those natural service sons with AI bulls all over the pediree would breed terminal as well as a proven AI sire. After all thats where the AI bulls come from.

Then that kind of refutes the study then doesn't it. Problem might be more selection and management.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Genetics...another All Academic moment   Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:46 pm

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Dennis,
Anderson addressed both sides; do you think this qualifies as valid research ?

Did he ask the right question and then design the study to answer that question?

My initial concern is if the bulls were similar for EPDs. If Dr. Anderson used AI bulls that were trait leaders for growth and carcass at high accuracy (which it sounds like he did) and used natural service bulls that were not similar in EPDs or indexes to the AI bulls (which is unknown from this article), then I would say he has a confounding issue.

He probably also has several other problems such as random matings and age of calves. Depending on the size of the herd, both of these issues can be fixed. If half of the cows were mated AI and the other half were mated to NS bulls, then he could address both of these issues. The age of the calves would be more similar.

I have seen other researchers come to the conclusion that high accuracy bulls sire progeny that have higher quality grades. However, upon closer inspection, the high accuracy bulls were also high for marbling EPD and the natural service sires were low accuracy and also happen to have lower marbling EPDs. So a researcher has to be careful to ask, then design the experiement to get the answer.

wishy-washy stuff..when this article appears in the Journal of Animal Science; I`ll pay it some attention...primarily, because it will invalidate EPDS Smile

I'll save you some time; with no more information than what is provided, I doubt it will make it into JAS.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Genetics...another All Academic moment   Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:58 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Mark Day wrote:
Maybe a stupid question but why can't a top performing natural service son with AI bulls all over the pedigree breed terminal as well as a proven AI sire? It seems from my experience that a $1500 maternal type Keeney bull sires similar to his very best. As meticulous as a breeder as Mr. Larry is and he just opens the gait.
ABSOLUTELY Mark...you can buy bulls for $1800, probably $1500, all day long that match AI stud bull numbers, but not the proof...the AI companies have the 1 in 5000 that bred his EPDS; not by breeding him in advance, but by finding him through progeny...SO...Dennis, who has to eat the calves by the 4,999 bulls it took to find the one that excels...who drinks all the milk used to find the cream? what a helter-skelter way to breed cattle...the fact that Mark Gardiner must keep interest in ALL his bulls to find the outlier defies everything I thought cattle was supposed to be about...predictability...the predictability Anderson and Dennis is offering is after one hell of a sort..is that satisfactory odds to be offering commercial breeders? why have breeds Dennis, if numbers work so well?


I did not ever say how I would breed cattle so you can avoid lumping me with anybody. However, I have never seen anybody show their data that say they sort any LESS than those who follow different breeding programs. Even with showing the Wye weaning weight data over all those years, nobody has shown if they have less or more variation in weaning weight. Do they still sort? According to you, these highly inbred cattle should be "peas in a pod" with no variation and no sort to find the good ones. Yet after all these years, I am willing to bet they still sort and the ones they select don't all ratio 100 on themselves or their calves.

It is interesting to discuss "population genetics" and claim to be concerned about the population and not the individual. However, no matter how you sort the population, there are still females (individuals) that do better than others and predicting how any of them will do is certainly not 100% accurate. So instead of using some data, it is back to the physical evaluation (better than the show ring?) and reputation of the breeder. I certainly don't have any issue with the reputation of the breeder; it should give confidence to the integrity of data collection.
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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Genetics...another All Academic moment   Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:05 pm

Mark Day wrote:
Quote :
I'm sure those natural service sons with AI bulls all over the pediree would breed terminal as well as a proven AI sire. After all thats where the AI bulls come from.

Then that kind of refutes the study then doesn't it. Problem might be more selection and management.

Sure it does but when the study is slanted toward a specific outcome you can make anything happen. I used to work some summers at the range research center when I was younger. We worked on a project with a Dr. on what cattles preference was for different species of grasses. The cattle had an esophageal plug in them. We would take the plugs out, put a bag around their throats and turn them out to graze. What ever they ate went into the bags then he would study which plants they prefered. He would get mad as hell when the cattle didn't graze what he hoped they would so he would make us herd them over to the grass he liked and hold them there. Loe and behold the study proved that cattle prefer the very grass he thought they would and he wrote some article on it.

I know not all studies are this way and some of them are very useful but some, like this one, are a joke.
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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Genetics...another All Academic moment   Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:16 pm

Quote :
According to you, these highly inbred cattle should be "peas in a pod" with no variation and no sort to find the good ones.

I believe you must have missed me saying inbreeding will create more phenotypic variation; less genotypic variation...
this is a phony piece of university work, and you know that, as clearly as I...so why not say it...?

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df



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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Genetics...another All Academic moment   Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:22 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Quote :
According to you, these highly inbred cattle should be "peas in a pod" with no variation and no sort to find the good ones.

I believe you must have missed me saying inbreeding will create more phenotypic variation; less genotypic variation...
this is a phony piece of university work, and you know that, as clearly as I...so why not say it...?


I did not say Anderson's study was a good one. In fact, I believe I stated there are some flaws, as I see it.

I did not miss the statement on inbreeding.

So give us the breeding program of the ideal commercial producer. They buy your inbred bull. Now what? Do you save heifers or buy them? If you save them, what should they breed these heifers to? A half brother?
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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Genetics...another All Academic moment   Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:30 pm

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Mark Day wrote:
Maybe a stupid question but why can't a top performing natural service son with AI bulls all over the pedigree breed terminal as well as a proven AI sire? It seems from my experience that a $1500 maternal type Keeney bull sires similar to his very best. As meticulous as a breeder as Mr. Larry is and he just opens the gait.
ABSOLUTELY Mark...you can buy bulls for $1800, probably $1500, all day long that match AI stud bull numbers, but not the proof...the AI companies have the 1 in 5000 that bred his EPDS; not by breeding him in advance, but by finding him through progeny...SO...Dennis, who has to eat the calves by the 4,999 bulls it took to find the one that excels...who drinks all the milk used to find the cream? what a helter-skelter way to breed cattle...the fact that Mark Gardiner must keep interest in ALL his bulls to find the outlier defies everything I thought cattle was supposed to be about...predictability...the predictability Anderson and Dennis is offering is after one hell of a sort..is that satisfactory odds to be offering commercial breeders? why have breeds Dennis, if numbers work so well?


I did not ever say how I would breed cattle so you can avoid lumping me with anybody. However, I have never seen anybody show their data that say they sort any LESS than those who follow different breeding programs. Even with showing the Wye weaning weight data over all those years, nobody has shown if they have less or more variation in weaning weight. Do they still sort? According to you, these highly inbred cattle should be "peas in a pod" with no variation and no sort to find the good ones. Yet after all these years, I am willing to bet they still sort and the ones they select don't all ratio 100 on themselves or their calves.

It is interesting to discuss "population genetics" and claim to be concerned about the population and not the individual. However, no matter how you sort the population, there are still females (individuals) that do better than others and predicting how any of them will do is certainly not 100% accurate. So instead of using some data, it is back to the physical evaluation (better than the show ring?) and reputation of the breeder. I certainly don't have any issue with the reputation of the breeder; it should give confidence to the integrity of data collection.

it takes written data to make research reports; but not to breed cattle...shows wouldn`t be a terrible way of doing things if you turned 50 cows out on plenty of grass and came back 7 months later and judged them and their calves...
I bought calves last month that I judged to weight 450 for buying by the lb purposes and they weighed 427...perfect Smile
Last week , the seller said 400, I agreed, thinking 375, they weighed 374...$1.20/cwt Angus bull calves...I just can`t understand why everyone that doesn`t weigh, is considered to not be evaluating...
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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Genetics...another All Academic moment   Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:39 pm

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Quote :
According to you, these highly inbred cattle should be "peas in a pod" with no variation and no sort to find the good ones.

I believe you must have missed me saying inbreeding will create more phenotypic variation; less genotypic variation...
this is a phony piece of university work, and you know that, as clearly as I...so why not say it...?


I did not say Anderson's study was a good one. In fact, I believe I stated there are some flaws, as I see it.

I did not miss the statement on inbreeding.

So give us the breeding program of the ideal commercial producer. They buy your inbred bull. Now what? Do you save heifers or buy them? If you save them, what should they breed these heifers to? A half brother?
you never should be buying heifers for your own commercial herd; you raise them...unless , of course, they are Show-me-Select heifers that are university approved Smile
for building a cowherd, breed heifers/young cows...yes, save the heifers, all of them...bred them to another inbred strain of the same breed for more replacements; or crossbreed terminally for the market...sexed heifer semen could finally make AI a worthwhile proposition...
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df



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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Genetics...another All Academic moment   Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:41 pm

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Mark Day wrote:
Maybe a stupid question but why can't a top performing natural service son with AI bulls all over the pedigree breed terminal as well as a proven AI sire? It seems from my experience that a $1500 maternal type Keeney bull sires similar to his very best. As meticulous as a breeder as Mr. Larry is and he just opens the gait.
ABSOLUTELY Mark...you can buy bulls for $1800, probably $1500, all day long that match AI stud bull numbers, but not the proof...the AI companies have the 1 in 5000 that bred his EPDS; not by breeding him in advance, but by finding him through progeny...SO...Dennis, who has to eat the calves by the 4,999 bulls it took to find the one that excels...who drinks all the milk used to find the cream? what a helter-skelter way to breed cattle...the fact that Mark Gardiner must keep interest in ALL his bulls to find the outlier defies everything I thought cattle was supposed to be about...predictability...the predictability Anderson and Dennis is offering is after one hell of a sort..is that satisfactory odds to be offering commercial breeders? why have breeds Dennis, if numbers work so well?


I did not ever say how I would breed cattle so you can avoid lumping me with anybody. However, I have never seen anybody show their data that say they sort any LESS than those who follow different breeding programs. Even with showing the Wye weaning weight data over all those years, nobody has shown if they have less or more variation in weaning weight. Do they still sort? According to you, these highly inbred cattle should be "peas in a pod" with no variation and no sort to find the good ones. Yet after all these years, I am willing to bet they still sort and the ones they select don't all ratio 100 on themselves or their calves.

It is interesting to discuss "population genetics" and claim to be concerned about the population and not the individual. However, no matter how you sort the population, there are still females (individuals) that do better than others and predicting how any of them will do is certainly not 100% accurate. So instead of using some data, it is back to the physical evaluation (better than the show ring?) and reputation of the breeder. I certainly don't have any issue with the reputation of the breeder; it should give confidence to the integrity of data collection.

it takes written data to make research reports; but not to breed cattle...shows wouldn`t be a terrible way of doing things if you turned 50 cows out on plenty of grass and came back 7 months later and judged them and their calves...
I bought calves last month that I judged to weight 450 for buying by the lb purposes and they weighed 427...perfect Smile
Last week , the seller said 400, I agreed, thinking 375, they weighed 374...$1.20/cwt Angus bull calves...I just can`t understand why everyone that doesn`t weigh, is considered to not be evaluating...

Oh, I agree you are evaluating even without recording the data. However, your example is guessing (educational !) weights (phenotype) and you are not so concerned about genotype. EPDs are more about genotype. That is why it evaluates the difference, not the absolute weights.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Genetics...another All Academic moment   Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:42 pm

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Quote :
According to you, these highly inbred cattle should be "peas in a pod" with no variation and no sort to find the good ones.

I believe you must have missed me saying inbreeding will create more phenotypic variation; less genotypic variation...
this is a phony piece of university work, and you know that, as clearly as I...so why not say it...?


I did not say Anderson's study was a good one. In fact, I believe I stated there are some flaws, as I see it.

I did not miss the statement on inbreeding.

So give us the breeding program of the ideal commercial producer. They buy your inbred bull. Now what? Do you save heifers or buy them? If you save them, what should they breed these heifers to? A half brother?
you never should be buying heifers for your own commercial herd; you raise them...unless , of course, they are Show-me-Select heifers that are university approved Smile
for building a cowherd, breed heifers/young cows...yes, save the heifers, all of them...bred them to another inbred strain of the same breed for more replacements; or crossbreed terminally for the market...sexed heifer semen could finally make AI a worthwhile proposition...

Well of course they are university approved; who ever heard of being successful without going to college Very Happy Laughing Laughing Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Genetics...another All Academic moment   Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:49 pm

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Quote :
According to you, these highly inbred cattle should be "peas in a pod" with no variation and no sort to find the good ones.

I believe you must have missed me saying inbreeding will create more phenotypic variation; less genotypic variation...
this is a phony piece of university work, and you know that, as clearly as I...so why not say it...?


I did not say Anderson's study was a good one. In fact, I believe I stated there are some flaws, as I see it.

I did not miss the statement on inbreeding.

So give us the breeding program of the ideal commercial producer. They buy your inbred bull. Now what? Do you save heifers or buy them? If you save them, what should they breed these heifers to? A half brother?
you never should be buying heifers for your own commercial herd; you raise them...unless , of course, they are Show-me-Select heifers that are university approved Smile
for building a cowherd, breed heifers/young cows...yes, save the heifers, all of them...bred them to another inbred strain of the same breed for more replacements; or crossbreed terminally for the market...sexed heifer semen could finally make AI a worthwhile proposition...

Well of course they are university approved; who ever heard of being successful without going to college Very Happy Laughing Laughing Laughing

I found my wife while going to college...I`m going to have to defer to you on this one Smile
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Genetics...another All Academic moment   Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:27 pm

Jack McNamee wrote:
Mark Day wrote:
Quote :
I'm sure those natural service sons with AI bulls all over the pediree would breed terminal as well as a proven AI sire. After all thats where the AI bulls come from.

Then that kind of refutes the study then doesn't it. Problem might be more selection and management.

Sure it does but when the study is slanted toward a specific outcome you can make anything happen. I used to work some summers at the range research center when I was younger. We worked on a project with a Dr. on what cattles preference was for different species of grasses. The cattle had an esophageal plug in them. We would take the plugs out, put a bag around their throats and turn them out to graze. What ever they ate went into the bags then he would study which plants they prefered. He would get mad as hell when the cattle didn't graze what he hoped they would so he would make us herd them over to the grass he liked and hold them there. Loe and behold the study proved that cattle prefer the very grass he thought they would and he wrote some article on it.

I know not all studies are this way and some of them are very useful but some, like this one, are a joke.
Had similar experience working for a researcher...but those university folks are smart...they know not to bite the hand that feeds them.
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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Genetics...another All Academic moment   Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:34 am

Quote :
EPDs are more about genotype.

Are we sure about that since they use measured data to build them?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: The Value of Genetics...another All Academic moment   Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:50 am

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
EPDs are more about genotype.

Are we sure about that since they use measured data to build them?

Not sure what you are getting at.

EPDs are computed from weights, heights, pregnancy status, etc or any trait that has variation, is heritable and can be given an objective measurement. It is the result of applied statistics.

No, they don't provide genotypes such as AA, Aa, aa, if that is what you are getting at.
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