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alexfarms



Posts : 10
Join date : 2013-08-21
Age : 58
Location : Gypsum, KS

PostSubject: Re: Breeding goals   Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:48 pm

MKeeney wrote:
alexfarms wrote:
When we really wrap these cattle up to 30-50% inbred and then outcross them, we get an outcross animal that reverses the inbreeding depression that has occurred from the excessive inbreeding.  That inbreeding depression shouldn't be evident again, unless we start wrapping them up tight again, so it really shouldn't be a one generation effect from the initial outcrossing.  But when we get heterosis from crossing two different breeds, we talk about that being a 1 time event.  Isn't there a difference between reversing inbreeding depression and heterosis?  If we keep breeding crossbreds to crossbreds, don't we lose performance without creating inbreeding depression?

The current swine industry might be a good study on answering those questions.

If we keep breeding crossbreds to crossbreds, don't we lose performance without creating inbreeding depression?

not sure; we lose the hybrid effect on phenotype, but genotypic loss?? I don`t think so...seems the greatest loss would be in predictability  Question indexes seem to produce the same number by traveling differing roads...

the ultimate question seems to be...do we need breeds or just use indexes? Given the current association/mainstream strategies, all the breeds might as well be lumped together and select from the pack with indexes...the only  reason  that`s not happening is it would decimate association coffers...
John, don`t know how much of LL`s writing you have read, but the constant point is...every time breeds get lumped together, a new breed is selected from mongrelization...but is that from need for production, or just a new breed to market the "rarity effect"  Question 

I have read parts of LL's posts and parts of the tru-line posts, but it seems hard for me to follow. I'll have to read it over a few times to understand it. Its interesting, but it seems complicated to me and I'm joining the conversation late enough that there is a large volume there to try to soak up.

In the past, I have not accepted inbreeding depression and heterosis as exact opposites. I guess I have thought of "breeds" as being groups of like animals, therefore when we cross breeds we are doing more than just crossing lines, we are crossing significantly different types. Some of the breeds are getting hard to tell apart lately, so maybe I need to change my thinking on that.
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Gus



Posts : 35
Join date : 2010-10-10
Location : Southeast Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Breeding goals   Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:10 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
Gus wrote:

It excites me too. When I was young and dumb, but thought I knew everything and had all the answers. I devised a line breeding scheme, where the IBC would rise over time, it would of been a very long process, and after giving it a half hearted try. I liked what I saw, but the fact it would take a lifetime or  longer to see the final results, and not having the funding, I more or less abandon the project. I still dabble in inbreeding. I also like the fact his bull is #736, as that is the number of bull I bred that I'm so proud of. Very Happy

Gus, I don't follow - what did you see that you liked and wasn't it commercially viable? As for the time aspect - that doesn't worry me - if the journey is enjoyable and successful does it really matter if we ever get to the final destination? Can there ever be a "final result" in an endeavour like this?

The reason it wasn't practical, there are allot of reason's, for one it was the size of my herd and the number of bulls needed to start, but for the most part is was a hour glass design where you start with large group narrow it down to a few than ex span outwards from within. My belief was it would bring uniformity and consistency, like "peas in a pod". It was just something I came up with after reading about prong horns and cheetah's. Whether it ever would have turned out like I thought is hard to say.
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding goals   Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:15 pm

" that doesn't worry me - if the journey is enjoyable and successful does it really matter if we ever get to the final destination?"

And this makes it all worth while regardless of what anyone can say or think. The entire goal is to do it my way and in the end I am the only one I need to seek approval from.. I cant be anyone but me!!!!!!!!! So the main thing is KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding goals   Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:20 am

John Alexander wrote:
As for my experiences linebreeding the King Dominos, I think the biggest surprise is the extremes and so many culls.  The top performers seem to produce the top performing calves and the poor performers produce poor performers (although I haven't tried outcrossing the poor performers).  I do believe higher inbreeding delays growth to maturity and causes greater maternal calving problems in the first calf heifers.  Roy Darnell was a Miles City Line 1 breeder and he use to say that the Line 1's increase in frame with age because of a different growth curve due to inbreeding, and I think he had that right.

John, is the type, "frame, thickness, milk in females" prone to extremes, or is the variation mostly in the level of growth?
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alexfarms



Posts : 10
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Age : 58
Location : Gypsum, KS

PostSubject: Re: Breeding goals   Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:14 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Hello John and Welcome...I just posted the below in answer to your "Shoshone question" and posting it again as a further introduction...

Hello John, good seeing your name here...Larry can explain better, but I`m sure the name comes from the Shoshone River...the River name from the Indian Tribe??? I don`t know...and seeing those Herefords you mentioned are from Cody; I`m guess the same thing...bit I`m more interested in this bull below; others, and your linebreeding experiences... please share here, or start your own topic...Welcome  Exclamation

http://www.kansashereford.org/s/MemberPopup.cfm?PID=118-4



that 42% IBC caught my eye immediately; I`ve already had a round with Danny Miller over the Hereford Association having their IBC values calculated way too high...your thoughts?

http://www.kansashereford.org/s/MemberDirectory.cfm?MID=118#

The bull pictured is AF HL KING DOMINO 1018. As a 3 year old he measured 55.5 inches at the hip and weighed 1675#, which put him at a flat 5.0 frame on the BIF frame score chart. I weighed and measured him the other day, he's 4 years old on 3/27, and he weighed 1900# and was 57.25" at the hip, which puts him at frame 5.6 on the BIF frame chart. Several years ago, I had a conversation with Roy Darnell in which he explained to me that the Miles City Line 1's gained on the frame chart as they aged. The reason for my post is as an example of how intense linebreeding changes the growth pattern of the stock. I believe the delayed growth puts pressure on maternal calving ease.

I have always described this delay in the growth pattern in inbred stock as inbreeding depression. I have had several conversations with cattlemen over the years about the terms I use. In the early 21st century, I had a conversation with a customer who told me if I wanted to promote them, I shouldn't call them inbred. LOL, I guess it reminded him of DELIVERANCE or something. It seems like there are a lot of interpretations of terms like inbreeding, linebreeding, inbreeding depression, heterosis and hybrid vigor. I'm sure we could all express an opinion on each of them, BUT I had an interesting opinion expressed to me in a recent email from a young man. He doesn't believe the term inbreeding depression is correct and what is really happening is the inbred stock level off in performance to their "natural state". I believe he derived this opinion from conversations with Jim Lents. Its an interesting and different way of looking at the performance of inbred stock and I think it may be a better description of the performance of inbred stock.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding goals   Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:46 pm

alexfarms wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Hello John and Welcome...I just posted the below in answer to your "Shoshone question" and posting it again as a further introduction...

Hello John, good seeing your name here...Larry can explain better, but I`m sure the name comes from the Shoshone River...the River name from the Indian Tribe??? I don`t know...and seeing those Herefords you mentioned are from Cody; I`m guess the same thing...bit I`m more interested in this bull below; others, and your linebreeding experiences... please share here, or start your own topic...Welcome  Exclamation

http://www.kansashereford.org/s/MemberPopup.cfm?PID=118-4



that 42% IBC caught my eye immediately; I`ve already had a round with Danny Miller over the Hereford Association having their IBC values calculated way too high...your thoughts?

http://www.kansashereford.org/s/MemberDirectory.cfm?MID=118#

The bull pictured is AF HL KING DOMINO 1018.  As a 3 year old he measured 55.5 inches at the hip and weighed 1675#, which put him at a flat 5.0 frame on the BIF frame score chart.  I weighed and measured him the other day, he's 4 years old on 3/27,  and he weighed 1900# and was 57.25" at the hip, which puts him at frame 5.6 on the BIF frame chart.  Several years ago, I had a conversation with Roy Darnell in which he explained to me that the Miles City Line 1's gained on the frame chart as they aged.  The reason for my post is as an example of how intense linebreeding changes the growth pattern of the stock.  I believe the delayed growth puts pressure on maternal calving ease.

I have always described this delay in the growth pattern in inbred stock as inbreeding depression.  I have had several conversations with cattlemen over the years about the terms I use.  In the early 21st century, I had a conversation with a customer who told me if I wanted to promote them, I shouldn't call them inbred.   LOL, I guess it reminded him of DELIVERANCE or something.  It seems like there are a lot of interpretations of terms like  inbreeding, linebreeding, inbreeding depression, heterosis and hybrid vigor.  I'm sure we could all express an opinion on each of them, BUT I had an interesting opinion expressed to me in a recent email from a young man.  He doesn't believe the term inbreeding depression is correct and what is really happening is the inbred stock level off in performance to their "natural state".  I believe he derived this opinion from conversations with Jim Lents.  Its an interesting and different way of looking at the performance of inbred stock and I think it may be a better description of the performance of inbred stock.

John,
maybe Larry can comment on this...he`s often referred to something similar to "finding the true genetic level"...an idea I never quite understood... Idea 
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Larry Leonhardt



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PostSubject: Re: Breeding goals   Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:32 pm

John,
thanks for sharing. Many years ago an old "linebreeder" told me the true genetic level is like a calm level of water, the averages of a population. Back when I was measuring the distributions of an average, of course for every individual above average there is another below average. Heterosis/hybrid vigor is like the crests of a wave that will return to the calm level, a non additive situation which was further established by MARC research experiments. The difficulty is being satisfied with the true "level", the tendency is to either ride the waves in choppy seas or add more "water"  Very Happy 

LL
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alexfarms



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PostSubject: Re: Breeding goals   Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:35 pm

Larry Leonhardt wrote:
John,
thanks for sharing. Many years ago an old "linebreeder" told me the true genetic level is like a calm level of water, the averages of a population. Back when I was measuring the distributions of an average, of course for every individual above average there is another below average. Heterosis/hybrid vigor is like the crests of a wave that will return to the calm level, a non additive situation which was further established by MARC research experiments. The difficulty is being satisfied with the true "level", the tendency is to either ride the waves in choppy seas or add more "water"  Very Happy 

LL

Thanks for the response. That pretty well fits with what the young man was explaining to me. It did seem like a bit of an upside down view of the way I have thought of inbreeding depression. I guess once I find that level with my cattle, then I will have to decide whether I like it or not. It will be interesting.
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Hilly



Posts : 406
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : Sylvan Lake, Alberta

PostSubject: Re: Breeding goals   Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:24 am

Larry Leonhardt wrote:
John,
thanks for sharing.   Many years ago an old "linebreeder" told me the true genetic level is like a calm level of water, the averages of a population. Back when I was measuring the distributions of an average, of course for every individual above average there is another below average.   Heterosis/hybrid vigor is like the crests of a wave that will return to the calm level, a non additive situation which was further established by MARC research experiments.   The difficulty is being satisfied with the true "level", the tendency is to either ride the waves in choppy seas or add more "water"   Very Happy 

LL  

Another good way of illustrating and seems to fit well, the prevailing wind or whim of the day provides the energy for the wave. When the wave starts out at sea it has a more circular orbit but as the wave approaches the shore friction slows the base of the wave causing its orbit to become elliptical until the point it finally has to break and in turn causes a rip tide as things return back to the base...  I’m not a professional wave surfer so I have found the friction of the rip painful more often than not as it pulls me back out to sea.

Hilly realizing its easier to reflect with calm waters  Smile 
 
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alexfarms



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Age : 58
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding goals   Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:43 am

Hilly wrote:
Larry Leonhardt wrote:
John,
thanks for sharing.   Many years ago an old "linebreeder" told me the true genetic level is like a calm level of water, the averages of a population. Back when I was measuring the distributions of an average, of course for every individual above average there is another below average.   Heterosis/hybrid vigor is like the crests of a wave that will return to the calm level, a non additive situation which was further established by MARC research experiments.   The difficulty is being satisfied with the true "level", the tendency is to either ride the waves in choppy seas or add more "water"   Very Happy 

LL  

Another good way of illustrating and seems to fit well, the prevailing wind or whim of the day provides the energy for the wave. When the wave starts out at sea it has a more circular orbit but as the wave approaches the shore friction slows the base of the wave causing its orbit to become elliptical until the point it finally has to break and in turn causes a rip tide as things return back to the base...  I’m not a professional wave surfer so I have found the friction of the rip painful more often than not as it pulls me back out to sea.

Hilly realizing its easier to reflect with calm waters  Smile 
 

Is that a recent picture of Sylvan Lake?
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Hilly



Posts : 406
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding goals   Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:05 pm

alexfarms wrote:
Hilly wrote:
Larry Leonhardt wrote:
John,
thanks for sharing.   Many years ago an old "linebreeder" told me the true genetic level is like a calm level of water, the averages of a population. Back when I was measuring the distributions of an average, of course for every individual above average there is another below average.   Heterosis/hybrid vigor is like the crests of a wave that will return to the calm level, a non additive situation which was further established by MARC research experiments.   The difficulty is being satisfied with the true "level", the tendency is to either ride the waves in choppy seas or add more "water"   Very Happy

LL  

Another good way of illustrating and seems to fit well, the prevailing wind or whim of the day provides the energy for the wave. When the wave starts out at sea it has a more circular orbit but as the wave approaches the shore friction slows the base of the wave causing its orbit to become elliptical until the point it finally has to break and in turn causes a rip tide as things return back to the base...  I’m not a professional wave surfer so I have found the friction of the rip painful more often than not as it pulls me back out to sea.

Hilly realizing its easier to reflect with calm waters  Smile


Is that a recent picture of Sylvan Lake?

John,

I borrowed that picture from “Reflections from LL”   Mon 15 Nov 2010 post...

I wish that was what the lake looked like but the two feet of snow on top of 2 feet of ice does not allow for too much reflecting.

This would be a more appropriate picture for the conditions and the only way we can make waves this time of year  Cool   

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Larry Leonhardt



Posts : 162
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PostSubject: Re: Breeding goals   Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:54 pm

Craig, nice picture of the Canadian Fountain of Youth .... mind over matter Very Happy



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