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Gus



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:18 pm


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Gus



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:38 pm


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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:38 pm

Gus wrote:


As Kent suggested a few days ago , which came first...the epds or the map? or maybe it was...if the map is drawn based on the EPDS, how can the map enhance epds?

MK, waiting on Pat for a better answer than atgc ot was it abcd ?  Smile 
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Gus



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:55 am

I believe science has it's place, but I believe common sense is more valuable.

This cow has a +9 milk and a +25 WW EPD she is a full sister to the bull with the genomic score.

In the end I don't need any more than to see her and her calf working in my management and environment to know she is the type and kind I'm looking for.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:52 am

Gus wrote:
I believe science has it's place, but I believe common sense is more valuable.

This cow has a +9 milk and a +25 WW EPD she is a full sister to the bull with the genomic score.

In the end I don't need any more than to see her and her calf working in my management and environment to know she is the type and kind I'm looking for.

Gus, in defense of EPD`S, a mistake we often make, expected progeny differences are not what an individual IS, but supposedly what they will transmit as a parent ...and they tell us all the bally hooed bull testing stations/  farao  screenings etc, don`t amount to much when it comes to BREEDING VALUE...but of course, common sense told us that already  Very Happy

ps...and there are no worthy epds that apply to a cow making a cow, or even being a good cow...
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:57 am

Gus

Can you post the genomic scores after the retraining on 12/6/13. I would be interested in seeing how much change there was in the scores. I am willing to bet the 2 animals scores you posted that you own are far more likely to succeed in your management than offspring of the 2 other bulls posted. The milk, mature weight, mature height scores indicated that the offspring will milk way too heavy and couple frame scores too big.

Can you afford to feed and keep replacements out of sydgyn turbo or weigh up? They would make terminal cattle for the feedlot.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:07 am

Gus wrote:


This is a view of the before and after the revamp. The top is based of 13 thousand tested and the bottom is based on 51 thousand tested. If I trusted the information, it would show what direction the breed is going as a whole. This is a ranking system where #1 is best and 100 is last. That's my problem, there are stuff you can't see like marbling, but growth I can see and if this bull doesn't have any growth in him I guess I don't know what growth is. When the ranking doesn't coincide with what I'm seeing on the ranch, how can I put much value in it.

The only think I would like to change on the bull is fat. Animals that carry more back fat have a easier time under my management and weather conditions. Gus if you fed the bulls offspring with high energy creep feeder and unlimited corn for the cows you could get the growth of some of the major players. I believe your bull is better suited for range/pasture production then Iowa confined monoslope beef production.

Sorry I did not see the changes in dates on the 2 profile scores.
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EddieM



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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:08 am

PatB wrote:
Gus

Can you post the genomic scores after the retraining on 12/6/13.  I would be interested in seeing how much change there was in the scores.   I am willing to bet the 2 animals scores you posted that you own are far more likely to succeed in your management than offspring of the 2 other  bulls posted.  The milk, mature weight, mature height scores indicated that the offspring will milk way too heavy and couple frame scores too big.  

Can you afford to feed and keep replacements out of sydgyn turbo or weigh up?   They would make terminal cattle for the feedlot.

Then maybe the tool is for terminal cattle?

Gus, Thanks for the pictures. I did not feel a thrill run up my leg when I viewed either one so I must not understand the alphabet selection process of high quality bulls or how to paint bulls by the number.

Eddie, out of touch as usual. If ignorance is bliss, I must be the happiest guy in the world.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:02 am

EddieM wrote:
PatB wrote:
Gus

Can you post the genomic scores after the retraining on 12/6/13.  I would be interested in seeing how much change there was in the scores.   I am willing to bet the 2 animals scores you posted that you own are far more likely to succeed in your management than offspring of the 2 other  bulls posted.  The milk, mature weight, mature height scores indicated that the offspring will milk way too heavy and couple frame scores too big.  

Can you afford to feed and keep replacements out of sydgyn turbo or weigh up?   They would make terminal cattle for the feedlot.

Then maybe the tool is for terminal cattle?  

Gus, Thanks for the pictures.  I did not feel a thrill run up my leg when I viewed either one so I must not understand the alphabet selection process of high quality bulls or how to paint bulls by the number.

Eddie, out of touch as usual.  If ignorance is bliss, I must be the happiest guy in the world.

Genomics are a selection tool to supplement all traditional selection tools.
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RobertMac



Posts : 377
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Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:49 am

PatB wrote:
Gus wrote:


This is a view of the before and after the revamp. The top is based of 13 thousand tested and the bottom is based on 51 thousand tested. If I trusted the information, it would show what direction the breed is going as a whole. This is a ranking system where #1 is best and 100 is last. That's my problem, there are stuff you can't see like marbling, but growth I can see and if this bull doesn't have any growth in him I guess I don't know what growth is. When the ranking doesn't coincide with what I'm seeing on the ranch, how can I put much value in it.

The only think I would like to change on the bull is fat.  Animals that carry more back fat have a easier time under my management and weather conditions.  Gus if you fed the bulls offspring with high energy creep feeder and unlimited corn for the cows you could get the growth of some of the major players.   I believe your bull is better suited for range/pasture production then Iowa confined monoslope beef production.

Sorry I did not see the changes in dates on the 2 profile scores.

If more people fed the ancestors of this bull with creep feeders and unlimited corn, that fat score would have been acceptable.

Robertmac, thinking WT has the feed deal right
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Gus



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:55 am

MKeeney wrote:

Gus, in defense of EPD`S, a mistake we often make, expected progeny differences are not what an individual IS, but supposedly what they will transmit as a parent ...and they tell us all the bally hooed bull testing stations/  farao  screenings etc, don`t amount to much when it comes to BREEDING VALUE...but of course, common sense told us that already  Very Happy

ps...and there are no worthy epds that apply to a cow making a cow, or even being a good cow...

Mike; I've heard a rephrase of that quote quite often from my A.I. rep when I questioned a bull "G A R Predestined". Something like "that bull has thousands of outstanding calves spread across the country and I get 1 calf and I condemn him"

Isn't EPD's (progeny) and Genomics (the individual)?  Very Happy  But I do see what you said "me bad"  Embarassed 
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:09 pm

Well, I went to buy a Predestined son for terminal use and he was so sorry looking I passed...
discussion is like Epds; there is no bad discussion or epds  Smile 
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PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:30 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Well, I went to buy a Predestined son for terminal use and he was so sorry looking I passed...
discussion is like Epds; there is no bad discussion or epds  Smile 

Just inappropiate sometimes.
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Gus



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:35 pm

PatB wrote:
Gus

Can you post the genomic scores after the retraining on 12/6/13.  I would be interested in seeing how much change there was in the scores.   I am willing to bet the 2 animals scores you posted that you own are far more likely to succeed in your management than offspring of the 2 other  bulls posted.  The milk, mature weight, mature height scores indicated that the offspring will milk way too heavy and couple frame scores too big.  

Can you afford to feed and keep replacements out of sydgyn turbo or weigh up?   They would make terminal cattle for the feedlot.

I wasn't very clear this is the same calf.

My main purpose in posting it was it should show how the breed as a whole is slowly moving. The only surprising number is HP. It looks like the industry in putting emphasis on growth and losing feed efficiency. For myself that would be the wrong way to go, for feed is by far my most expensive expenditure, my cows live on limited feed 6 months out of the year. Efficiency is very important to me, for I have very limited resources.
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Kent Powell



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Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:54 pm

PatB wrote:
Gus wrote:


This is a view of the before and after the revamp. The top is based of 13 thousand tested and the bottom is based on 51 thousand tested. If I trusted the information, it would show what direction the breed is going as a whole. This is a ranking system where #1 is best and 100 is last. That's my problem, there are stuff you can't see like marbling, but growth I can see and if this bull doesn't have any growth in him I guess I don't know what growth is. When the ranking doesn't coincide with what I'm seeing on the ranch, how can I put much value in it.



Sorry I did not see the changes in dates on the 2 profile scores.

Pat,
"The only think I would like to change on the bull is fat.  Animals that carry more back fat have a easier time under my management and weather conditions. "
 
Is that belief or experience?  I prefer yg 2 choice cattle to yg 3/4.  I have watched Belgian blue and Brahman stand in the corner shivering in the winter, but I have not seen that in my cattle.  I am happy with enough and it has a beneficial economic impact.

Is selecting for more fat to fit your environment offset by more milk?  Excess milk is a condition eater here.  It is worse in the good years.  Balancing selfish and selfish is the answer.


The fat problem is back in full force as far as I can see.  But, I am a product of the war on fat era.

"Gus if you fed the bulls offspring with high energy creep feeder and unlimited corn for the cows you could get the growth of some of the major players. "

Environment changes DNA profiles?  I am missing something here.

"I believe your bull is better suited for range/pasture production then Iowa confined monoslope beef production."

You can tell this from a DNA profile?  I can't.  I would ask Gus.  I trust his word on his cattle over any third party verification.  Anything that claims to identify cattle better than experience, in my experience, has failed.

Performance testing, as I see it, was an attempt to replace the tail of fads and trends wagging the dog of the industry. It worked for awhile. The Dog was wagging the tail, Until EPD's became a marketing tool rather than a breeding tool. DNA has been nipped in the bud as a path toward identification by just adding the results into the formula as a part of the database rather than a replacement. IF it is as advertised, it should replace it.



Last edited by Kent Powell on Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:56 pm

Gus wrote:
PatB wrote:
Gus

Can you post the genomic scores after the retraining on 12/6/13.  I would be interested in seeing how much change there was in the scores.   I am willing to bet the 2 animals scores you posted that you own are far more likely to succeed in your management than offspring of the 2 other  bulls posted.  The milk, mature weight, mature height scores indicated that the offspring will milk way too heavy and couple frame scores too big.  

Can you afford to feed and keep replacements out of sydgyn turbo or weigh up?   They would make terminal cattle for the feedlot.

I wasn't very clear this is the same calf.

My main purpose in posting it was it should show how the breed as a whole is slowly moving. The only surprising number is HP. It looks like the industry in putting emphasis on growth and losing feed efficiency. For myself that would be the wrong way to go, for feed is by far my most expensive expenditure, my cows live on limited feed 6 months out of the year. Efficiency is very important to me, for I have very limited resources.    

In this era of feed efficiency- this bull looks like he would be a prospect.
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Gus



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:38 pm

Kent

I agree, however his CED number would cause me to run away from this bull in a heart beat, if I didn't know his background.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:18 pm

Gus wrote:
Kent

I agree, however his CED number would cause me to run away from this bull in a heart beat, if I didn't know his background.

Gus how do you post a copy of the genomic profile on this site?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:51 pm

Pat,
"The only think I would like to change on the bull is fat.  Animals that carry more back fat have a easier time under my management and weather conditions. "


what are you willing to give up to get more fat Pat?

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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:17 pm

Thanx gus for the reply. I cannot PM as it hangs my computer.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:39 pm

Links copied from advantage site.

Strengths and Weaknesses of Methods of Incorporating Genomics into Genetic Evaluation - Dr. Matt Spangler, University of Nebraska-Lincoln http://connect.ksre.ksu.edu/p3oxcna01h3/

AAA Experience with Incorporating Genomics into Genetic Evaluation Dr. Sally Northcutt, American Angus Association http://connect.ksre.ksu.edu/p56g937as5s/

AHA Experience with Incorporating Genomics into Genetic Evaluation – Mr. Jack Ward, American Hereford Association http://connect.ksre.ksu.edu/p8n83nmxj5k/

ASA Experience with Incorporating Genomics into Genetic Evaluation – Dr. Lauren Hyde, American Simmental Association http://connect.ksre.ksu.edu/p713b3hahq0/

Experience in Developing Breed-specific Predictions for GE-EPDs – Dr. Dorian Garrick, Iowa State University (No recording available due to technical problem)

Individual Reliabilities of Molecular Breeding Values – Dr. Steve Kachman, University of Nebraska Lincoln http://connect.ksre.ksu.edu/p73kmuol2l7/

Bayesian Regression as an Alternative Implementation of Genomic-Enhanced Genetic Evaluation – Dr. Rohan Fernando, Iowa State University http://connect.ksre.ksu.edu/p3d88nm2sho/
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:51 pm

why climb a tree to pick the highest apple when the lower limbs are full of tasty fruit?

oh, that`s right, to create business for the ladder manufacturers ...
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:28 am

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