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PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:08 pm

RobertMac wrote:
If the financial health of your operation is questionable in this market, you have problems that no kind of breeding scheme will help...especially you being in the grassfed market.

Your genetics are probably so diverse now that I don't believe you would have a problem with inbreeding depression in your lifetime. You may expose problems that are already in your herd, but I have my doubts about that. Let me qualify my statement...I don't believe in inbreeding depression when linebreeding with selection for functional criteria. What I think you will experience, that I have, is the lack of growthy animals that benefit from heterosis.

You are using the same definition of closed herd that Big Jim does which is absolutely wrong. When you AI with semen that is not from a bull that came from your herd, you are bringing in an outside animal...whether live or in a straw. When you bring in those outside genetics, you are starting over every year and you well never make any sustainable progress.

But this is just my opinion, good luck to you.

Just a question...do you have a degree in animal husbandry from Cornell University?

No I have a BS in Forest Management from University of Maine at Orono. I have a closed herd to live animal imports for biosecerity reasons.
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MKeeney
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Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:19 pm

jonken wrote:
PatB wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
Pat, as long as you AI, you well never make any sustainable progress.

The one thing that most in this group have in common is they all grew a pair and
started thinking for themselves.

How many generations will it take with a closely related herd (70 females) with no outside genetics being used, 1 or 2 home raised sires used for 1 season before being replaced by the next  home raised sire(s) before inbred depression becomes a problem and affects financial health of the operation?


 PatB,  It could happen the first generation . YOU could  / can still keep your operation healthy .
 LL's cartoon sign reads...Danger ! Bridge Out . It does not say ..Danger , bridge out and will never be reopened , turn around and give up on this trail . Good luck with genomics .   Jon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af0BnjMV0Is

Turnaround, every now and then I get a
little bit lonely and you're never coming around
Turnaround, Every now and then I get a
little bit tired of listening to the sound of my tears
Turnaround, Every now and then I get a
little bit nervous that the best of all the years have gone by
Turnaround, Every now and then I get a
little bit terrified and then I see the look in your eyes
Turnaround bright eyes, Every now and
then I fall apart
Turnaround bright eyes, Every now and
then I fall apart

Turnaround, Every now and then I get a
little bit restless and I dream of something wild
Turnaround, Every now and then I get a
little bit helpless and I'm lying like a child in your arms
Turnaround, Every now and then I get a
little bit angry and I know I've got to get out and cry
Turnaround, Every now and then I get a
little bit terrified but then I see the look in your eyes
Turnaround bright eyes, Every now and
then I fall apart
Turnaround bright eyes, Every now and
then I fall apart

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Gus



Posts : 35
Join date : 2010-10-10
Location : Southeast Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:56 pm

PatB wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
If you don't mind my asking, what levels are you looking for Pat?  

Genomic scores I prefer for AI sires scores range 1 lowest(most desirable according to AAA) to 100 highest for each trait.  
bw 50 or higher
RFI and DMI perferably below 50
SC, doc low as possible
Milk higher then 70's
MW, MH, fat  higher number
tenderness lower the better.

still use epds WW, YW, marbling and ribeye
ww 30 plus and not extreme on top side
yw 50 plus and not extreme on top side

carcas traits preferably positive

All traits are consider plus any other info I can get my hands on in making a decision on which bulls to use.  Low genomic scores for milk and BW will most likely remove an animal from consideration.  Combination of all information available exluding the $ values is used to make AI sire selections.  Home raised sires are based on performance, pedigree, visual appraisal, genomic scores and epds and my mood on the day I turn out the lucky sire(s).

Pat you sound a lot like I did at one time. Probably around 15 years ago I attended a sale. I had marked 5 or 6 head, that had great numbers were stacked generations of popular A.I. sires, that I wanted to look at. It was in the fall of the year and they were selling with calves at side. The cows I had selected were the most unsound with the poorest doing calves in the whole sale. It was a eye opener for me. I'm not much of a breeder, the bull I raised and most proud of was a total accident. From the day he was born he was all bull, and until I got calves from him I was skeptical as to just how good he was, after all he ranks in the bottom 2% of the breed for growth according to his EPD's, yet he holds the record for average weight sold at weaning and heaviest bull ever weaned at this place. I my opinion his daughters are second to none. He made a world of difference in my herd, what he lacked in frame he more than made up in thickness and width. This is what one of his inbred son's genomic score looks like.  

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MVCatt



Posts : 141
Join date : 2010-09-24
Age : 42
Location : SW Penn

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:23 pm

PatB wrote:


Genomic scores I prefer for AI sires scores range 1 lowest(most desirable according to AAA) to 100 highest for each trait.  
bw 50 or higher
RFI and DMI perferably below 50
SC, doc low as possible
Milk higher then 70's
MW, MH, fat  higher number
tenderness lower the better.

still use epds WW, YW, marbling and ribeye
ww 30 plus and not extreme on top side
yw 50 plus and not extreme on top side

carcas traits preferably positive

All traits are consider plus any other info I can get my hands on in making a decision on which bulls to use.  Low genomic scores for milk and BW will most likely remove an animal from consideration.  Combination of all information available exluding the $ values is used to make AI sire selections.  Home raised sires are based on performance, pedigree, visual appraisal, genomic scores and epds and my mood on the day I turn out the lucky sire(s).

This strategy should guarantee an endless genetic search for the rest of your life Pat. Why??? because prepotency is not part of your equation. Nothing could make the AAA happier cheers.

PatB wrote:

How many generations will it take with a closely related herd (70 females) with no outside genetics being used, 1 or 2 home raised sires used for 1 season before being replaced by the next  home raised sire(s) before inbred depression becomes a problem and affects financial health of the operation?

Well from the sounds of things you might be awhile just trying to breed a closely related herd. I know personally it will take me a lifetime. I think it's craziness to linebreed just for the sake of linebreeding, but at the same time I will never use another maternal bull from a program that doesn't use linebreeding as a tool. I also think it's craziness to use bulls I know very little about just for the sake of saying my herd is closed to outside animals.

MV...try'n not to paint myself into a corner.
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MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:50 pm

Gus wrote:
PatB wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
If you don't mind my asking, what levels are you looking for Pat?  

Genomic scores I prefer for AI sires scores range 1 lowest(most desirable according to AAA) to 100 highest for each trait.  
bw 50 or higher
RFI and DMI perferably below 50
SC, doc low as possible
Milk higher then 70's
MW, MH, fat  higher number
tenderness lower the better.

still use epds WW, YW, marbling and ribeye
ww 30 plus and not extreme on top side
yw 50 plus and not extreme on top side

carcas traits preferably positive

All traits are consider plus any other info I can get my hands on in making a decision on which bulls to use.  Low genomic scores for milk and BW will most likely remove an animal from consideration.  Combination of all information available exluding the $ values is used to make AI sire selections.  Home raised sires are based on performance, pedigree, visual appraisal, genomic scores and epds and my mood on the day I turn out the lucky sire(s).

Pat you sound a lot like I did at one time. Probably around 15 years ago I attended a sale. I had marked 5 or 6 head, that had great numbers were stacked generations of popular A.I. sires, that I wanted to look at. It was in the fall of the year and they were selling with calves at side. The cows I had selected were the most unsound with the poorest doing calves in the whole sale. It was a eye opener for me. I'm not much of a breeder, the bull I raised and most proud of was a total accident. From the day he was born he was all bull, and until I got calves from him I was skeptical as to just how good he was, after all he ranks in the bottom 2% of the breed for growth according to his EPD's, yet he holds the record for average weight sold at weaning and heaviest bull ever weaned at this place. I my opinion his daughters are second to none. He made a world of difference in my herd, what he lacked in frame he more than made up in thickness and width. This is what one of his inbred son's genomic score looks like.  


Gus, is a 90 high or low?
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jonken



Posts : 141
Join date : 2011-12-17
Location : nemo

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:57 pm

PatB wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
If the financial health of your operation is questionable in this market, you have problems that no kind of breeding scheme will help...especially you being in the grassfed market.

Your genetics are probably so diverse now that I don't believe you would have a problem with inbreeding depression in your lifetime. You may expose problems that are already in your herd, but I have my doubts about that. Let me qualify my statement...I don't believe in inbreeding depression when linebreeding with selection for functional criteria. What I think you will experience, that I have, is the lack of growthy animals that benefit from heterosis.

You are using the same definition of closed herd that Big Jim does which is absolutely wrong. When you AI with semen that is not from a bull that came from your herd, you are bringing in an outside animal...whether live or in a straw. When you bring in those outside genetics, you are starting over every year and you well never make any sustainable progress.

But this is just my opinion, good luck to you.

Just a question...do you have a degree in animal husbandry from Cornell University?

Quote :
No  I have a BS in Forest Management from University of Maine at Orono.  




 Which type of forest would you prefer to manage for , pulpwood or veneer ?     Jon
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MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:09 pm

Pat,
what kind of biosecurity measures will Tom and Clarence need to address before visiting to classify the cows?...they`ve walked through a lot of BS in their time; most of it their own... Smile 
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Tom D
Admin


Posts : 535
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 38
Location : Michigan

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:46 pm

PatB wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
If the financial health of your operation is questionable in this market, you have problems that no kind of breeding scheme will help...especially you being in the grassfed market.

Your genetics are probably so diverse now that I don't believe you would have a problem with inbreeding depression in your lifetime. You may expose problems that are already in your herd, but I have my doubts about that. Let me qualify my statement...I don't believe in inbreeding depression when linebreeding with selection for functional criteria. What I think you will experience, that I have, is the lack of growthy animals that benefit from heterosis.

You are using the same definition of closed herd that Big Jim does which is absolutely wrong. When you AI with semen that is not from a bull that came from your herd, you are bringing in an outside animal...whether live or in a straw. When you bring in those outside genetics, you are starting over every year and you well never make any sustainable progress.

But this is just my opinion, good luck to you.

Just a question...do you have a degree in animal husbandry from Cornell University?

No  I have a BS in Forest Management from University of Maine at Orono.  I have a closed herd to live animal imports for biosecerity reasons.  


I find this somewhat ironic, considering that you can't see the forest for the trees.
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Kent Powell



Posts : 606
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:55 pm

Igenity  Higher supposed to be "better"  except in BW  rfi dmi fat

Line   CED(EPD)  BW    WW     ADG  YW     RFI   DMI   YH  SC    DOC   HP  CEM   MILK  MW MH CW  MARB  REA  FAT  TEND
CLOSED LINE REFERENCE SIRES
1A     5(-1)         4(1.2) 3(25)  4      6(41)  4      4       6    5      5       5     6(5)   3(1)   4    5    6    4         4      3      5  
1B     4(-5)         5(2.1) 2(14)  4      5(24)  3      4       5    3      6       4     5(0)   2(1)   3    4    6    4         4      6      4
1C     4(-4)         6(2.7) 5(20)  5      7(33)  4      5       6    5      5       6     4(1)   2(0)   4    5    7    5         7      4      3
1D     3(-13)       5(3.8 ) 3(15)  5      5(26)  3      3       5    2      5       6     5(-4)  1(-4)  3    4    7    4        4      4       3

AVG   4               5        3.25   4.5    5.75   3.5    4      5.5 3.75  5.25  5.25 5       2        3.5 4.5  6.5 4.25   4.75  4.25  3.75


A I REFERENCE SIRES

NEW FRONTIER
        7 (4)           5(3.2) 7(47)7      8(86)   7      7       6    6      6        6     7        7       6   6     9      10    8        3      5
SINCLAIR NET PRESENT VALUE
        6(13)          2(-1.7)1(46)4      5(82)   4      4       4    4      3        5      4       3       1   2      5      6      4       7       4
M C C DAYBREAK
        6(16)          4(-0.5) 4(61)7     7(114) 6      5        5    5      3        7      5       4       4   5      9      5     6        7       2
HOOVER DAM
        6(10)          6 (0)    7 (50) 6    8(95)  4      5        5    6       5       2      5       4      5    5      8      5      8       6       5  


What is wrong with this picture? (other than columns not lining up)
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MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:19 pm

Igenity  Higher supposed to be "better"  except in BW  rfi dmi fat

Line..   CED(EPD)  BW...    WW     ADG..  YW     RFI   DMI   YH  SC    DOC   HP..  CEM   MILK  MW. MH.. CW  MARB  REA  FAT..  TEND
CLOSED LINE REFERENCE SIRES
1A.....5(-1)........4(1.2)..... 3(25).. 4      6(41)...  4      4       6    5      5       5     6(5).   3(1).   4.    5..    6..    4         4      3 .     5  
1B.....4(-5)....... 5(2.1)..... 2(14).. 4      5(24)...  3      4       5    3      6       4     5(0).   2(1).   3.    4..    6..    4         4      6.      4
1C.....4(-4)....... 6(2.7)..... 5(20).. 5      7(33)...  4      5       6    5      5       6     4(1).   2(0).   4.    5..    7..    5         7      4       3
1D.....3(-13)......5(3.8 ).... 3(15).. 5      5(26)...  3      3       5    2      5       6     5(-4)  1(-4).. 3 .   4...    7..    4        4      4        3

AVG   4               5  ..       3.25 .  4.5 .   5.75 ..  3.5    4      5.5 3.75  5.25  5.25   5        2      3.5   4.5    6.5  4.25    4.75  4.25  3.75


A I REFERENCE SIRES
Line..   CED(EPD)  BW...    WW     ADG..  YW     RFI   DMI   YH    SC    DOC   HP..  CEM   MILK  MW.   MH.. CW  MARB  REA  FAT..  TEND
NEW FRONTIER
       7 (4)           5(3.2)  7(47)     7      8(86)     7      7       6     6      6        6       7       7       6       6       9      10      8        3       5
SINCLAIR NET PRESENT VALUE
       6(13)          2(-1.7)1(46}     4      5(82)     4      4       4     4      3        5       4       3       1        2      5       6        4       7        4
M C C DAYBREAK
       6(16)          4(-0.5) 4(61)     7      7(114)   6      5       5     5      3        7       5       4       4       5       9       5        6        7       2
HOOVER DAM
       6(10)          6 (0)    7 (50)    6       8(95)    4      5       5     6      5        2       5       4       5        5      8       5        8       6        5  


What is wrong with this picture? (other than columns not lining up)

straighter I hope ..mk
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PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:25 pm

jonken wrote:
PatB wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
If the financial health of your operation is questionable in this market, you have problems that no kind of breeding scheme will help...especially you being in the grassfed market.

Your genetics are probably so diverse now that I don't believe you would have a problem with inbreeding depression in your lifetime. You may expose problems that are already in your herd, but I have my doubts about that. Let me qualify my statement...I don't believe in inbreeding depression when linebreeding with selection for functional criteria. What I think you will experience, that I have, is the lack of growthy animals that benefit from heterosis.

You are using the same definition of closed herd that Big Jim does which is absolutely wrong. When you AI with semen that is not from a bull that came from your herd, you are bringing in an outside animal...whether live or in a straw. When you bring in those outside genetics, you are starting over every year and you well never make any sustainable progress.

But this is just my opinion, good luck to you.

Just a question...do you have a degree in animal husbandry from Cornell University?

Quote :
No  I have a BS in Forest Management from University of Maine at Orono.  



 Which type of forest would you prefer to manage for , pulpwood or veneer ?     Jon

The trees that were present dictate what you managed for unless you clearcut and replanted. Some tree species were selected against due to low value and slow growth and susceptable to disease.


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PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:45 pm

Gus wrote:
PatB wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
If you don't mind my asking, what levels are you looking for Pat?  

Genomic scores I prefer for AI sires scores range 1 lowest(most desirable according to AAA) to 100 highest for each trait.  
bw 50 or higher
RFI and DMI perferably below 50
SC, doc low as possible
Milk higher then 70's
MW, MH, fat  higher number
tenderness lower the better.

still use epds WW, YW, marbling and ribeye
ww 30 plus and not extreme on top side
yw 50 plus and not extreme on top side

carcas traits preferably positive

All traits are consider plus any other info I can get my hands on in making a decision on which bulls to use.  Low genomic scores for milk and BW will most likely remove an animal from consideration.  Combination of all information available exluding the $ values is used to make AI sire selections.  Home raised sires are based on performance, pedigree, visual appraisal, genomic scores and epds and my mood on the day I turn out the lucky sire(s).

Pat you sound a lot like I did at one time. Probably around 15 years ago I attended a sale. I had marked 5 or 6 head, that had great numbers were stacked generations of popular A.I. sires, that I wanted to look at. It was in the fall of the year and they were selling with calves at side. The cows I had selected were the most unsound with the poorest doing calves in the whole sale. It was a eye opener for me. I'm not much of a breeder, the bull I raised and most proud of was a total accident. From the day he was born he was all bull, and until I got calves from him I was skeptical as to just how good he was, after all he ranks in the bottom 2% of the breed for growth according to his EPD's, yet he holds the record for average weight sold at weaning and heaviest bull ever weaned at this place. I my opinion his daughters are second to none. He made a world of difference in my herd, what he lacked in frame he more than made up in thickness and width. This is what one of his inbred son's genomic score looks like.  


Gus

Your bull has a interesting pedigree, it is one of the more outcross pedigrees I have seen in a while. I would not place much faith in his epd's as the AAA has very little data to work plus his ancestor was from Ireland. The AAA discrimates against animals that are not AI sire for epd's. If he is working for you raise and sell a bunch of sons to local commercial men who appreciate a good bulls. The heterosis from using him on mainstream angus should be similar to useing a bull of different breed.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:57 pm

Pat,
he`s only half Irish...the heterosis effect has already mostly been used up in the individual...very little left to pass to progeny...why Shoshone is made strictly for the commercial industry; so the commercial producer gets full benefit of prepotency...
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Guest



PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:15 pm

Gus you haven't spent enough money to be taken serious. More testing Gus and you may increase those numbers to achieve greatness.... W.T. F Thinkin I almost bought a Gus Bull a couple of years ago, and now knowing that they are 1/2 Irish makes me like them even better..... As My Granny said only the true Irish have black hair and green eye's
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Gus



Posts : 35
Join date : 2010-10-10
Location : Southeast Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:22 pm

MKeeney wrote:


Gus, is a 90 high or low?

Mike it is a ranking system, therefore 90 would be in the bottom 10% of the breed.
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Gus



Posts : 35
Join date : 2010-10-10
Location : Southeast Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:33 pm

Kent Powell wrote:
Igenity  Higher supposed to be "better"  except in BW  rfi dmi fat

Line   CED(EPD)  BW    WW     ADG  YW     RFI   DMI   YH  SC    DOC   HP  CEM   MILK  MW MH CW  MARB  REA  FAT  TEND
CLOSED LINE REFERENCE SIRES
1A     5(-1)         4(1.2) 3(25)  4      6(41)  4      4       6    5      5       5     6(5)   3(1)   4    5    6    4         4      3      5  
1B     4(-5)         5(2.1) 2(14)  4      5(24)  3      4       5    3      6       4     5(0)   2(1)   3    4    6    4         4      6      4
1C     4(-4)         6(2.7) 5(20)  5      7(33)  4      5       6    5      5       6     4(1)   2(0)   4    5    7    5         7      4      3
1D     3(-13)       5(3.8 ) 3(15)  5      5(26)  3      3       5    2      5       6     5(-4)  1(-4)  3    4    7    4        4      4       3

AVG   4               5        3.25   4.5    5.75   3.5    4      5.5 3.75  5.25  5.25 5       2        3.5 4.5  6.5 4.25   4.75  4.25  3.75


A I REFERENCE SIRES

NEW FRONTIER
        7 (4)           5(3.2) 7(47)7      8(86)   7      7       6    6      6        6     7        7       6   6     9      10    8        3      5
SINCLAIR NET PRESENT VALUE
        6(13)          2(-1.7)1(46)4      5(82)   4      4       4    4      3        5      4       3       1   2      5      6      4       7       4
M C C DAYBREAK
        6(16)          4(-0.5) 4(61)7     7(114) 6      5        5    5      3        7      5       4       4   5      9      5     6        7       2
HOOVER DAM
        6(10)          6 (0)    7 (50) 6    8(95)  4      5        5    6       5       2      5       4      5    5      8      5      8       6       5  


What is wrong with this picture? (other than columns not lining up)

It's Not a picture, so I made it in to one Very Happy 

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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:39 pm

Kent Powell wrote:
Igenity  Higher supposed to be "better"  except in BW  rfi dmi fat

Line   CED(EPD)  BW    WW     ADG  YW     RFI   DMI   YH  SC    DOC   HP  CEM   MILK  MW MH CW  MARB  REA  FAT  TEND
CLOSED LINE REFERENCE SIRES
1A     5(-1)         4(1.2) 3(25)  4      6(41)  4      4       6    5      5       5     6(5)   3(1)   4    5    6    4         4      3      5  
1B     4(-5)         5(2.1) 2(14)  4      5(24)  3      4       5    3      6       4     5(0)   2(1)   3    4    6    4         4      6      4
1C     4(-4)         6(2.7) 5(20)  5      7(33)  4      5       6    5      5       6     4(1)   2(0)   4    5    7    5         7      4      3
1D     3(-13)       5(3.8 ) 3(15)  5      5(26)  3      3       5    2      5       6     5(-4)  1(-4)  3    4    7    4        4      4       3

AVG   4               5        3.25   4.5    5.75   3.5    4      5.5 3.75  5.25  5.25 5       2        3.5 4.5  6.5 4.25   4.75  4.25  3.75


A I REFERENCE SIRES

NEW FRONTIER
        7 (4)           5(3.2) 7(47)7      8(86)   7      7       6    6      6        6     7        7       6   6     9      10    8        3      5
SINCLAIR NET PRESENT VALUE
        6(13)          2(-1.7)1(46)4      5(82)   4      4       4    4      3        5      4       3       1   2      5      6      4       7       4
M C C DAYBREAK
        6(16)          4(-0.5) 4(61)7     7(114) 6      5        5    5      3        7      5       4       4   5      9      5     6        7       2
HOOVER DAM
        6(10)          6 (0)    7 (50) 6    8(95)  4      5        5    6       5       2      5       4      5    5      8      5      8       6       5  


What is wrong with this picture? (other than columns not lining up)


other then what the hell it is, nothing. is this some of that new math from Ma and Pa Kettle you trying to learn me?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:42 pm

Gus wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
Igenity  Higher supposed to be "better"  except in BW  rfi dmi fat

Line   CED(EPD)  BW    WW     ADG  YW     RFI   DMI   YH  SC    DOC   HP  CEM   MILK  MW MH CW  MARB  REA  FAT  TEND
CLOSED LINE REFERENCE SIRES
1A     5(-1)         4(1.2) 3(25)  4      6(41)  4      4       6    5      5       5     6(5)   3(1)   4    5    6    4         4      3      5  
1B     4(-5)         5(2.1) 2(14)  4      5(24)  3      4       5    3      6       4     5(0)   2(1)   3    4    6    4         4      6      4
1C     4(-4)         6(2.7) 5(20)  5      7(33)  4      5       6    5      5       6     4(1)   2(0)   4    5    7    5         7      4      3
1D     3(-13)       5(3.8 ) 3(15)  5      5(26)  3      3       5    2      5       6     5(-4)  1(-4)  3    4    7    4        4      4       3

AVG   4               5        3.25   4.5    5.75   3.5    4      5.5 3.75  5.25  5.25 5       2        3.5 4.5  6.5 4.25   4.75  4.25  3.75


A I REFERENCE SIRES

NEW FRONTIER
        7 (4)           5(3.2) 7(47)7      8(86)   7      7       6    6      6        6     7        7       6   6     9      10    8        3      5
SINCLAIR NET PRESENT VALUE
        6(13)          2(-1.7)1(46)4      5(82)   4      4       4    4      3        5      4       3       1   2      5      6      4       7       4
M C C DAYBREAK
        6(16)          4(-0.5) 4(61)7     7(114) 6      5        5    5      3        7      5       4       4   5      9      5     6        7       2
HOOVER DAM
        6(10)          6 (0)    7 (50) 6    8(95)  4      5        5    6       5       2      5       4      5    5      8      5      8       6       5  


What is wrong with this picture? (other than columns not lining up)

It's Not a picture, so I made it in to one Very Happy 


whoa Gus; beautiful work...but like Larkota, I still don`t see anything that makes any sense

MK, thinking his webmaster status is in jeopardy after seeing Gus` talent... Smile 
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:17 am

MKeeney wrote:
Gus wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
Igenity  Higher supposed to be "better"  except in BW  rfi dmi fat

Line   CED(EPD)  BW    WW     ADG  YW     RFI   DMI   YH  SC    DOC   HP  CEM   MILK  MW MH CW  MARB  REA  FAT  TEND
CLOSED LINE REFERENCE SIRES
1A     5(-1)         4(1.2) 3(25)  4      6(41)  4      4       6    5      5       5     6(5)   3(1)   4    5    6    4         4      3      5  
1B     4(-5)         5(2.1) 2(14)  4      5(24)  3      4       5    3      6       4     5(0)   2(1)   3    4    6    4         4      6      4
1C     4(-4)         6(2.7) 5(20)  5      7(33)  4      5       6    5      5       6     4(1)   2(0)   4    5    7    5         7      4      3
1D     3(-13)       5(3.8 ) 3(15)  5      5(26)  3      3       5    2      5       6     5(-4)  1(-4)  3    4    7    4        4      4       3

AVG   4               5        3.25   4.5    5.75   3.5    4      5.5 3.75  5.25  5.25 5       2        3.5 4.5  6.5 4.25   4.75  4.25  3.75


A I REFERENCE SIRES

NEW FRONTIER
        7 (4)           5(3.2) 7(47)7      8(86)   7      7       6    6      6        6     7        7       6   6     9      10    8        3      5
SINCLAIR NET PRESENT VALUE
        6(13)          2(-1.7)1(46)4      5(82)   4      4       4    4      3        5      4       3       1   2      5      6      4       7       4
M C C DAYBREAK
        6(16)          4(-0.5) 4(61)7     7(114) 6      5        5    5      3        7      5       4       4   5      9      5     6        7       2
HOOVER DAM
        6(10)          6 (0)    7 (50) 6    8(95)  4      5        5    6       5       2      5       4      5    5      8      5      8       6       5  


What is wrong with this picture? (other than columns not lining up)

It's Not a picture, so I made it in to one Very Happy 


whoa Gus; beautiful work...but like Larkota, I still don`t see anything that makes any sense

MK, thinking his webmaster status is in jeopardy after seeing Gus` talent... Smile 


Thanks Gus,

I am just curious what the heck any of it means. If it is just an additive or subtractive of where they are currently in the EPD system, It is only useful in marketing current genetics- not the identification of true levels which is all I have ever wanted. IF genomics tell you what they really are, then dump the progressive treadmill which discounts animals for age and requires perpetual tie ins - and accept technology.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:12 am

well, am I ever glad there`s nothing there to see; back to breeding cattle...
yes Kent, just more numbers, marketing rarity; proof; new email doing exactly that...when all this is genomed out, it`s only going to verify what a breeder should already know...just another direction to piss into the wind...
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Kent Powell



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Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:40 am

[quote="Kent Powell"]Igenity  Higher supposed to be "better"  except in BW  rfi dmi fat

Line   CED(EPD)  BW    WW     ADG  YW     RFI   DMI   YH  SC    DOC   HP  CEM   MILK  MW MH CW  MARB  REA  FAT  TEND
CLOSED LINE REFERENCE SIRES
1A     5(-1)         4(1.2) 3(25)  4      6(41)  4      4       6    5      5       5     6(5)   3(1)   4    5    6    4         4      3      5  
1B     4(-5)         5(2.1) 2(14)  4      5(24)  3      4       5    3      6       4     5(0)   2(1)   3    4    6    4         4      6      4
1C     4(-4)         6(2.7) 5(20)  5      7(33)  4      5       6    5      5       6     4(1)   2(0)   4    5    7    5         7      4      3
1D     3(-13)       5(3.8 ) 3(15)  5      5(26)  3      3       5    2      5       6     5(-4)  1(-4)  3    4    7    4        4      4       3

AVG   4               5        3.25   4.5    5.75   3.5    4      5.5 3.75  5.25  5.25 5       2        3.5 4.5  6.5 4.25   4.75  4.25  3.75


A I REFERENCE SIRES

NEW FRONTIER
        7 (4)           5(3.2) 7(47)7      8(86)   7      7       6    6      6        6     7        7       6   6     9      10    8        3      5
SINCLAIR NET PRESENT VALUE
        6(13)          2(-1.7)1(46)4      5(82)   4      4       4    4      3        5      4       3       1   2      5      6      4       7       4
M C C DAYBREAK
        6(16)          4(-0.5) 4(61)7     7(114) 6      5        5    5      3        7      5       4       4   5      9      5     6        7       2
HOOVER DAM
        6(10)          6 (0)    7 (50) 6    8(95)  4      5        5    6       5       2      5       4      5    5      8      5      8       6       5  


For comparison-  levels found here
      7 .................1  .......7   .... 7 .  8   .... 1  ..  2   .. 1/7 . 7     .. 7   ...10  . 6   ...1/4 . 1/7..1/6 . 8 ...  7  .. 7   ..  3    ..  7

http://www.absglobal.com/Websites/absglobal/images/ABS%20Global%20Home/Beef/Beef%20Information/IgenityResults2122013.pdf

http://www.selectsiresbeef.com/index.php?option=com_php&Itemid=161

http://www.accelgen.com/upload/news/files/english/igenityprofilescores_3_1_2013.pdf

http://origenbeef.org/blog/category/genomic-results-for-origen-sires
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:47 pm

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Gus



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:06 pm



This is a view of the before and after the revamp. The top is based of 13 thousand tested and the bottom is based on 51 thousand tested. If I trusted the information, it would show what direction the breed is going as a whole. This is a ranking system where #1 is best and 100 is last. That's my problem, there are stuff you can't see like marbling, but growth I can see and if this bull doesn't have any growth in him I guess I don't know what growth is. When the ranking doesn't coincide with what I'm seeing on the ranch, how can I put much value in it.
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:15 pm

It just means the other 99% are too extreme!!!!
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:08 pm

Gus wrote:


This is a view of the before and after the revamp. The top is based of 13 thousand tested and the bottom is based on 51 thousand tested. If I trusted the information, it would show what direction the breed is going as a whole. This is a ranking system where #1 is best and 100 is last. That's my problem, there are stuff you can't see like marbling, but growth I can see and if this bull doesn't have any growth in him I guess I don't know what growth is. When the ranking doesn't coincide with what I'm seeing on the ranch, how can I put much value in it.

Got any pictures of a bull or a cow that has a lot of 1's or "good" low numbers? Do they look decent? Is this like the EPDs where the cattle that are not linked well to the mainstream always have weird numbers?
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