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PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:44 am

MKeeney wrote:
PatB wrote on Advantage...

Quote :
Those of you that have genomic tested some animals have you checked the recalibrated genomic profiles today? The results are far more inline with my animals actuals then they have been in the past. temperament scores are a big change on some of the animals and they reflect what I am seeing on the ground.
so the genome data is beginning to verify what you already knew? wow...I`m going to rush out and get me some kits to back up what I see and say...trust but verify eh? Smile
It is about eliminating undesirable direction outliers before heavy use in my herd.
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Kent Powell



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Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:50 pm

What is undesirable?

KP thinking with proven easy calving Double Muscled angus just inject Wagu marbling gene for terminal bulls, then maybe we can quit altering the cowherd on whims and actually get somewhere.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:30 pm

Pat said at ACS

Maybe it is time the AAA team up with the testing companies and pull blood on all the animals entered in maternal plus. Take the time to classifiy all the animals for structure, feet, legs, udder shape attachement, teat size and other traits that affect longevity of cows. Process 770k or higher scans to identify markers or regions that may have gene squences/mutation that are responsible for the difference in varying traits.

Pat, you never fail to amaze and amuse me...who would do the classifying Pat? Tom Burke or Clarence Van Dyke? maybe it`s time for more people to declare their independence and breed some damn cattle predictable enough to not need all that testing...but then, who would buy anything knowingly and predictably less than the BS MIRACLE proclaimed and promised by the BS moneychangers 365 days a year...
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:16 am

MKeeney wrote:
Pat said at ACS

Maybe it is time the AAA team up with the testing companies and pull blood on all the animals entered in maternal plus. Take the time to classifiy all the animals for structure, feet, legs, udder shape attachement, teat size and other traits that affect longevity of cows. Process 770k or higher scans to identify markers or regions that may have gene squences/mutation that are responsible for the difference in varying traits.

Pat,  you never fail to amaze and amuse me...who would do the classifying Pat? Tom Burke or Clarence Van Dyke? maybe it`s time for more people to declare their independence and breed some damn cattle predictable enough to not need all that testing...but then, who would buy anything knowingly and predictably less than the BS MIRACLE proclaimed and promised by the BS moneychangers 365 days a year...
Will never work: too high of cull rate.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:55 am

EddieM wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Pat said at ACS

Maybe it is time the AAA team up with the testing companies and pull blood on all the animals entered in maternal plus. Take the time to classifiy all the animals for structure, feet, legs, udder shape attachement, teat size and other traits that affect longevity of cows. Process 770k or higher scans to identify markers or regions that may have gene squences/mutation that are responsible for the difference in varying traits.

Pat,  you never fail to amaze and amuse me...who would do the classifying Pat? Tom Burke or Clarence Van Dyke? maybe it`s time for more people to declare their independence and breed some damn cattle predictable enough to not need all that testing...but then, who would buy anything knowingly and predictably less than the BS MIRACLE proclaimed and promised by the BS moneychangers 365 days a year...
Will never work: too high of cull rate.
referring to the cattle or the people? Smile 
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Kent Powell



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Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:07 am

"classifiy all the animals for structure, feet, legs, udder shape attachement, teat size and other traits that affect longevity of cows."

Doesn't this happen automatically in your own mind whenever you look at a cow?

"AAA team up with the testing companies and pull blood on all the animals entered in maternal plus"

There is so much wrong with this thought. People are willingly doing it, what is the push for force?


Maternal Plus, backdoor THR, because they know what you need more than you do.


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larkota



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Join date : 2010-09-23
Age : 57
Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:48 am

your can't fix stupid, just thin the herd...on a seven year average.

larkota thinking I should be laughing, but in reality it is rather sad.
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:10 pm

This mentality is what gave the Nazi's power in the 1930's.....One more reason to not have registered cattle, Next pat will want registered people with all DEFECT CARRIERS KILLED AT BIRTH. But then lets list Human Genetic defects.
"In ability to think for ones self" well this one tops my list Pat.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:34 pm

Kent Powell wrote:
"classifiy all the animals for structure, feet, legs, udder shape attachement, teat size and other traits that affect longevity of cows."

Doesn't this happen automatically in your own mind whenever you look at a cow?

"AAA team up with the testing companies and pull blood on all the animals entered in maternal plus"

There is so much wrong with this thought.  People are willingly doing it, what is the push for force?


Maternal Plus,  backdoor THR, because they know what you need more than you do.    


Kent I can manage the herd on visual appraisal for these traits but that does not help identify those that do not express these traits but pass them on to their offspring. Look at genetic mutations such as AM, NH, CA, OS, DD that cattle may carry and will not express untill 2 carrier animals are mated together. The reason I selected animals enrolled in maternal plus was that more data is being turned in on these animals and the raw data may be used to identify other hard to measure traits of interest. The program should be 100 percent voluntary same with turning in of the data now. Most on this site only believe in visual appraisal and that is their choice but I perfer to use all the information available to make decisions. The cattle herd management, selection, and breeding decisions is the owner(s)/manager(s) responsibilty and what tools they choose is their choice.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:04 pm

PatB wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
"classifiy all the animals for structure, feet, legs, udder shape attachement, teat size and other traits that affect longevity of cows."

Doesn't this happen automatically in your own mind whenever you look at a cow?

"AAA team up with the testing companies and pull blood on all the animals entered in maternal plus"

There is so much wrong with this thought.  People are willingly doing it, what is the push for force?


Maternal Plus,  backdoor THR, because they know what you need more than you do.    


Kent I can manage the herd on visual appraisal for these traits but that does not help identify those that do not express these traits but pass them on to their offspring.  Look at genetic mutations such as AM, NH, CA, OS, DD that cattle may carry and will not express untill 2 carrier animals are mated together.  The reason I selected animals enrolled in maternal plus was that more data is being turned in on these animals and the raw data may be used to identify other hard to measure traits of interest.  The program should be 100 percent voluntary same with turning in of the data now.  Most on this site only believe in visual appraisal and that is their choice but I perfer to use all the information available to make decisions.  The cattle herd management, selection, and breeding decisions is the owner(s)/manager(s) responsibilty and what tools they choose is their choice.  
quite the contrary, we believe in genotype;we don`t just believe in genotype; we create genotype...for just a trial run of your idea, why not pay for Clarence and Tom to come to Maine and classify your cows and see how cost effective that data is...better, yet, pay me, and I`ll do it...but only in the season when the Bushes are at Kennebunkport Very Happy 
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:05 pm

PatB wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
"classifiy all the animals for structure, feet, legs, udder shape attachement, teat size and other traits that affect longevity of cows."

Doesn't this happen automatically in your own mind whenever you look at a cow?

"AAA team up with the testing companies and pull blood on all the animals entered in maternal plus"

There is so much wrong with this thought.  People are willingly doing it, what is the push for force?


Maternal Plus,  backdoor THR, because they know what you need more than you do.    


Kent I can manage the herd on visual appraisal for these traits but that does not help identify those that do not express these traits but pass them on to their offspring.  Look at genetic mutations such as AM, NH, CA, OS, DD that cattle may carry and will not express untill 2 carrier animals are mated together.  The reason I selected animals enrolled in maternal plus was that more data is being turned in on these animals and the raw data may be used to identify other hard to measure traits of interest.  The program should be 100 percent voluntary same with turning in of the data now.  Most on this site only believe in visual appraisal and that is their choice but I perfer to use all the information available to make decisions.  The cattle herd management, selection, and breeding decisions is the owner(s)/manager(s) responsibilty and what tools they choose is their choice.  
Pat, do you think that you cull and select more or less than these supposed visual selectors? Are you sure of what you are assuming? How do you know what tools I am using or how good, average or sorry my cattle are?

Eddie, bearing the bristles of a broad brush against my backside
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:47 pm

PatB wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
"classifiy all the animals for structure, feet, legs, udder shape attachement, teat size and other traits that affect longevity of cows."

Doesn't this happen automatically in your own mind whenever you look at a cow?

"AAA team up with the testing companies and pull blood on all the animals entered in maternal plus"

There is so much wrong with this thought.  People are willingly doing it, what is the push for force?


Maternal Plus,  backdoor THR, because they know what you need more than you do.    


Kent I can manage the herd on visual appraisal for these traits but that does not help identify those that do not express these traits but pass them on to their offspring.  Look at genetic mutations such as AM, NH, CA, OS, DD that cattle may carry and will not express untill 2 carrier animals are mated together.  The reason I selected animals enrolled in maternal plus was that more data is being turned in on these animals and the raw data may be used to identify other hard to measure traits of interest.  The program should be 100 percent voluntary same with turning in of the data now.  Most on this site only believe in visual appraisal and that is their choice but I perfer to use all the information available to make decisions.  The cattle herd management, selection, and breeding decisions is the owner(s)/manager(s) responsibilty and what tools they choose is their choice.  
The Jews walked into the gas chambers 100% Voluntary Pat They could walk in or be shot. W.T Thinkin Just like Obama care we need lots of good honest breeders to join to pay for the test's So the big boys don't have to pay. Ain't nothing FREE PAT.
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:50 pm

Most on this site only believe in visual appraisal


Pretty simplified view.  While birds of a feather flock together,   my impression of this place is that that the flock is pretty diverse.  I deal with individuals not groups of people.  

YOU chose the traits. They are visual.  Where is discussion not visual.  While numbers are used to pick bulls, it is the visual that is reported.  

Do you believe a third party will find those who have traits they do not express?  It will still be the traits that are ignored that will suffer, as well as the traits antagonistic to maximums- which are now openly stated as the higher the better.  

As to the defects, they played a part in the SUPERIORITY of the individuals that spread it.   The club calf guys figured out with their two defects that the cattle are better FOR THEIR PURPOSES (appearance) than those without the defect.  I do believe selecting from the middle or from the dam with the visual verification of four feet, a stick, and a head capable of fighting for the right to breed and emit a mating call is a standard that is not available in a spreadsheet.

It is so freeing to finally figure out NONE of them are great.   Some are more, some are less, many are undiscovered in their ability until you look around and they have a whole set of 10-12 year old daughters who are youthful and beautiful.  While just average brings scoffs and mocking, are theirs better?

I believe the number crunchers are like a teenage kid who found out that he can drive 120 down country roads.  The founders were cautious.  They knew extremes have drawbacks.    Many don't seem to think the crash has happened.  Many in the country think it already has.    Too bad they are still looking for the quick fix.  

The dairy industry is clammering over outcross genetics because genomics has identified supremely superior individuals at a young age and most everyone is using them.  The diversity that is thought to be so important is disappearing.   When the Beef industry finds that BEST bull, where will the essential diversity come from?  If he is truly the best, only his sons will be able to follow him.  To this point changes in direction have prevented long lines to form.  Will this change, and if it does, then what?  

My main problem with genomics is that it is being sold as a necessity, not an option.  If you are after one size fits all, you have to do what needs done to support them.  If that was the goal, I would buy a nice  dairy farm and start turning the crank of efficient beef production.
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:08 pm

W.T wrote:
This mentality is what gave the Nazi's power in the 1930's.....One more reason to not have registered cattle, Next pat will want registered people with all DEFECT CARRIERS KILLED AT BIRTH. But then lets list Human Genetic defects.
"In ability to think for ones self" well this one tops my list Pat.

Rolling Eyes   You can't abbreviate "What The Fuck?"  without W T.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:25 pm

Kent

Genomics are a tool you can choose to use it or not. With the limited amount of testing I have done I am getting a clearer picture of the range of scores for traits that interest me that work under my management. Low bw is not high on my list as the lighter calves have a harder time surving the cold primitive conditions that the cow herd is managed in. Genomics holds great promise for manageing traits such as udder quality, teat size, abilty to survive high altitude or even fescue toxicity but most likely research dollars will not be spent to identify these traits.
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:39 pm

If you don't mind my asking, what levels are you looking for Pat?
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:53 am

Kent Powell wrote:
If you don't mind my asking, what levels are you looking for Pat?  

Genomic scores I prefer for AI sires scores range 1 lowest(most desirable according to AAA) to 100 highest for each trait.
bw 50 or higher
RFI and DMI perferably below 50
SC, doc low as possible
Milk higher then 70's
MW, MH, fat higher number
tenderness lower the better.

still use epds WW, YW, marbling and ribeye
ww 30 plus and not extreme on top side
yw 50 plus and not extreme on top side

carcas traits preferably positive

All traits are consider plus any other info I can get my hands on in making a decision on which bulls to use. Low genomic scores for milk and BW will most likely remove an animal from consideration. Combination of all information available exluding the $ values is used to make AI sire selections. Home raised sires are based on performance, pedigree, visual appraisal, genomic scores and epds and my mood on the day I turn out the lucky sire(s).
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:18 am

PatB wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
If you don't mind my asking, what levels are you looking for Pat?  

Genomic scores I prefer for AI sires scores range 1 lowest(most desirable according to AAA) to 100 highest for each trait.  
bw 50 or higher
RFI and DMI perferably below 50
SC, doc low as possible
Milk higher then 70's
MW, MH, fat  higher number
tenderness lower the better.

still use epds WW, YW, marbling and ribeye
ww 30 plus and not extreme on top side
yw 50 plus and not extreme on top side

carcas traits preferably positive

All traits are consider plus any other info I can get my hands on in making a decision on which bulls to use.  Low genomic scores for milk and BW will most likely remove an animal from consideration.  Combination of all information available exluding the $ values is used to make AI sire selections.  Home raised sires are based on performance, pedigree, visual appraisal, genomic scores and epds and my mood on the day I turn out the lucky sire(s).

Good thing that you have long cold winters so that you have time to mull through all of this data.

PB wrote:
Genomics holds great promise for managing traits such as udder quality, teat size, ability to survive high altitude or even fescue toxicity...
Why do you need genomics to manage these traits. One year around here will tell the tale on fescue. Udders and teats are pretty no-brainer: look at dam, granddam, sisters, etc. Looking for new outside genetics must be one of your hobbies.
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:59 am

Why do people accept the self imposed limitations of a single breed, yet avoid at all costs regional cattle that can address their regional issues of fescue, altitude, heat, cold, etc...?
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:11 am

Pat, as long as you AI, you well never make any sustainable progress.

The one thing that most in this group have in common is they all grew a pair and
started thinking for themselves.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:04 am

Kent Powell wrote:
Why do people accept the self imposed limitations of a single breed, yet avoid at all costs regional cattle that can address their regional issues of fescue, altitude, heat, cold, etc...?

How big of an area should be consider regional? I think you could combine all of North East and still not have the cattle that is available in Kansas or Missouri or even Kentucky. I would be highly supprised if there are not western ranches that have more registered cattle then New England States and New York combined have. I am not willing to accept or cannot afford growth depression cause by inbreeding to the extend that would happen if I stop using outside AI sires. No live animals will be brought onto the farm. I am left using the tools available to decrease my risk.

I
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:14 am

RobertMac wrote:
Pat, as long as you AI, you well never make any sustainable progress.

The one thing that most in this group have in common is they all grew a pair and
started thinking for themselves.

How many generations will it take with a closely related herd (70 females) with no outside genetics being used, 1 or 2 home raised sires used for 1 season before being replaced by the next home raised sire(s) before inbred depression becomes a problem and affects financial health of the operation?
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jonken



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:20 pm

PatB wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
Pat, as long as you AI, you well never make any sustainable progress.

The one thing that most in this group have in common is they all grew a pair and
started thinking for themselves.

How many generations will it take with a closely related herd (70 females) with no outside genetics being used, 1 or 2 home raised sires used for 1 season before being replaced by the next  home raised sire(s) before inbred depression becomes a problem and affects financial health of the operation?


 PatB,  It could happen the first generation . YOU could  / can still keep your operation healthy .
 LL's cartoon sign reads...Danger ! Bridge Out . It does not say ..Danger , bridge out and will never be reopened , turn around and give up on this trail . Good luck with genomics .   Jon
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:50 pm

If the financial health of your operation is questionable in this market, you have problems that no kind of breeding scheme will help...especially you being in the grassfed market.

Your genetics are probably so diverse now that I don't believe you would have a problem with inbreeding depression in your lifetime. You may expose problems that are already in your herd, but I have my doubts about that. Let me qualify my statement...I don't believe in inbreeding depression when linebreeding with selection for functional criteria. What I think you will experience, that I have, is the lack of growthy animals that benefit from heterosis.

You are using the same definition of closed herd that Big Jim does which is absolutely wrong. When you AI with semen that is not from a bull that came from your herd, you are bringing in an outside animal...whether live or in a straw. When you bring in those outside genetics, you are starting over every year and you well never make any sustainable progress.

But this is just my opinion, good luck to you.

Just a question...do you have a degree in animal husbandry from Cornell University?
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:37 pm

PatB wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
Pat, as long as you AI, you well never make any sustainable progress.

The one thing that most in this group have in common is they all grew a pair and
started thinking for themselves.

How many generations will it take with a closely related herd (70 females) with no outside genetics being used, 1 or 2 home raised sires used for 1 season before being replaced by the next  home raised sire(s) before inbred depression becomes a problem and affects financial health of the operation?

If that is the concern, the first thing I would do is use one where their inbreeding has not been a problem rather than where it has been avoided.
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