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Kent Powell



Posts : 606
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Genomics    Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:11 am

Where are the predictions for Durability,  Health & Fertility.  Wouldn't that be the place to start rather than have to add it later?
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PatB



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Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:17 am

There are no records for those traits in the beef herd that the researchers have access to. Very Happy 
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:46 am

Then what is the value of the data Pat.... This is a ridiculous endeavor with no consistent controls on the subject studied.... just what do they expect to learn, or is it just another marketing scam that they can profit from. W.T Thinkin this is a merry go round that has no music.
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larkota



Posts : 371
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Age : 57
Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:44 am

Kent Powell wrote:
Where are the predictions for Durability,  Health & Fertility.  Wouldn't that be the place to start rather than have to add it later?
from select sire
Stay - Stayability (Red Angus & Simmental) - The stayability
EPD predicts the probability of a bull’s daughters
staying in production to at least six years of age compared
to daughters of another bull. Reported as a percentage, a
higher value is desirable.

I do believe you need to be in whole herd reporting.

also from CSU

http://beefmagazine.com/mag/beef_stayability_epds


larkota thinking PatB should have known this. maybe Red Angus & Simmental just have a bigger problem with it or forward thinking, just wait AAA is trying to get on the same band wagon.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sat Nov 30, 2013 12:02 pm

The researchers need data to work with to identify markers for traits of interest. They may have the raw genomic scan data but they need phenotype/actual breeding thru reason for disposal of cows to identify markers for some of the traits. The dairy breeds have been collecting some of this data for decades and select beef breeds with whole herd reporting has some of the data needed to help identify some fo the traits mentioned. The American Angus Association maternal plus program will provide some of this data as more herds enroll and submit breeding, calving and disposal records on all animals in the herd. The biggest factor limiting genomic research maybe the lack of a large pool of phenotype data for breeding/conception/calving/weaning, reason for disposal, temperment, feet/legs data, under attachment, teat size placement and a host of of traits that are hard to measure.

I beleive it is Iowa State that are researching health issues in bovine species in relation to genomic predictions. The dairy industry is farther ahead in genomics due to the decades of records for traits of interest plus AI breeding records/conception rates by individual AI sires.

The world of genomics is in its infancy barely sitting up compare to a human child terms.
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:12 pm

How do we expect any study or EPD to be accurate if the biggest influence is not measured? FEED... A wise man told me once that there was a Bull 814 Z that was a pretty fair bull and that the mountain west is what made him... yes he left good cows in the mountains but he wasn't worth a Crap n Iowa.. Pat the biggest influence on any measurement in cattle is the feed source, and until that can be standardized all the DNA testing and all the data recorded is not worth the effort to collect it, when you have many different ideas on the method of collection or the honesty of the collection. The result is nothing but speculation! The line one's are a closed herd Pat and they have single trait selected for 85 yrs. yet there data is also contaminated due to the HUMAN factor to keep the experiment going. Because if the data had remained pure the line one would have failed long ago. I have been to the RA convention and the BULL SHIT RAN DEEP yes there were some very credible people there that I believe were honest and very good cattle people, but with any Assoc. The monetary reward to the few always removes the credibility for a truthful result. So give it up Pat as PT Barnum said there is a sucker born every day and they can see you coming a mile away. W.T Thinkin enough of the Genomic Bull Shit
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:45 pm

W.T wrote:
How do we expect any study or EPD to be accurate if the biggest influence is not measured? FEED... A wise man told me once that there was a Bull 814 Z that was a pretty fair bull and that the mountain west is what made him... yes he left good cows in the mountains but he wasn't worth a Crap n Iowa.. Pat the biggest influence on any measurement in cattle is the feed source, and until that can be standardized all the DNA testing and all the data recorded is not worth the effort to collect it, when you have many different ideas on the method of collection or the honesty of the collection. The result is nothing but speculation! The line one's are a closed herd Pat and they have single trait selected for 85 yrs. yet there data is also contaminated due to the HUMAN factor to keep the experiment going. Because if the data had remained pure the line one would have failed long ago. I have been to the RA convention and the BULL SHIT RAN DEEP yes there were some very credible people there that I believe were honest and very good cattle people, but with any Assoc. The monetary reward to the few always removes the credibility for a truthful result. So give it up Pat as PT Barnum said there is a sucker born every day and they can see you coming a mile away. W.T Thinkin enough of the Genomic Bull Shit
The AAA annual meeting runs knee deep in BS also. There are many honest people who attend who care more about the cattle then marketing but there are the other extreme represented also. Is genomics perfect "NO !!" is every breeder honest and tell you the whole truth about their cattle?
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76 Bar



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Join date : 2010-11-14
Location : Behind the Redwood Curtain

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sat Nov 30, 2013 2:06 pm

Quote :
The researchers need data to work with to identify markers for traits of interest.
Pleeeze tell me you jest.  

Quote :
maybe Red Angus & Simmental just have a bigger problem with it or forward thinking
As it applies to RA, reasonably confident its the latter and not the former. And I'll add, any registry that embraces selective input is doing a grave disservice to its so called breed, its membership and far more importantly, the commercial sector. Nuff said.

Quote :
The biggest factor limiting genomic research maybe the lack of a large pool of phenotype data for breeding/conception/calving/weaning, reason for disposal, temperment, feet/legs data, under attachment, teat size placement and a host of of traits that are hard to measure.
Don't know about you, but economically relevant traits (what else matters???) are damned sure easy to measure.
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larkota



Posts : 371
Join date : 2010-09-23
Age : 57
Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:06 pm

PatB wrote:
 The American Angus Association maternal plus program will provide some of this data as more herds enroll and submit breeding, calving and disposal records on all animals in the herd.  .
would rather do my own research and pay myself then a tax to AAA. also do not have to share it with reg. breeders using the information just for marketing purpose.
reminded of a saying "a EPD is man's way of correcting his breeding mistake."
larkota thinking PatB must have a hell of a wreck to need so many tools.
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df



Posts : 613
Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:54 pm

Kent Powell wrote:
Where are the predictions for Durability,  Health & Fertility.  Wouldn't that be the place to start rather than have to add it later?
I suspect there will be some G x E to complicate the rankings.

I don't know what the genomic companies are offering but if they don't have phenotypes to go with their predictions, I would struggle to accept it.

Feed records would be nice; how much will it change the rankings of sires? If the rankings don't change much, then using estimations based on mature weight and milk may be adequate.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:19 pm

larkota wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
Where are the predictions for Durability,  Health & Fertility.  Wouldn't that be the place to start rather than have to add it later?
from select sire
Stay - Stayability (Red Angus & Simmental) - The stayability
EPD predicts the probability of a bull’s daughters
staying in production to at least six years of age compared
to daughters of another bull. Reported as a percentage, a
higher value is desirable.

I do believe you need to be in whole herd reporting.

also from CSU

http://beefmagazine.com/mag/beef_stayability_epds


larkota thinking PatB should have known this. maybe Red Angus & Simmental just have a bigger problem with it or forward thinking, just wait AAA is trying to get on the same band wagon.
I`ll be removing three Simmentals from my leased out cows {papers thrown away at purchase}...the sorriest, most worthless females in the last 30 years on this place; all by "popular, proven AI stud bulls"...three Simmy bulls crossed progeny have been a wreck for temperament as well...once again, small sample size Wink  ...somehow, I never seem to luck out and buy one of the "great ones"...Cool Cool  applying Bayes theorem, I find there is a 94% probability that none{great Simmental ones} exist, and that helps my cattle breeding ego Very Happy 
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:27 pm

W.T Applying W.T'S theorem Bull Shit Is Bull Shit!!!!!!!! And 76 Bar said a mouthful without any Bull Shit with this statement.


Don't know about you, but economically relevant traits (what else matters???) are damned sure easy to measure.  And as Forrest would say That's all I got to say about that.Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:34 am

W.T wrote:
W.T Applying W.T'S theorem Bull Shit Is Bull Shit!!!!!!!! And 76 Bar said a mouthful without any Bull Shit with this statement.


Don't know about you, but economically relevant traits (what else matters???) are damned sure easy to measure.  And as Forrest would say That's all I got to say about that.Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
? I`m thinking anything easily measured doesn`t have to be measured...except in the search for OUTLIERS

MK, searching through the noise to find a signal to insert in Bayes Theorem to determine the probability there`s no bullshit in the above...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:37 am

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Kent Powell



Posts : 606
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:24 am

larkota wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
Where are the predictions for Durability,  Health & Fertility.  Wouldn't that be the place to start rather than have to add it later?
from select sire
Stay - Stayability (Red Angus & Simmental) - The stayability
EPD predicts the probability of a bull’s daughters
staying in production to at least six years of age compared
to daughters of another bull. Reported as a percentage, a
higher value is desirable.

I do believe you need to be in whole herd reporting.

also from CSU

http://beefmagazine.com/mag/beef_stayability_epds


larkota thinking PatB should have known this. maybe Red Angus & Simmental just have a bigger problem with it or forward thinking, just wait AAA is trying to get on the same band wagon.

Is making it to six a great feat? I usually don't even know them by number until they are at least 8. Whole herd reporting= Bovine Common Core
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PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:32 pm

Kent Powell wrote:
larkota wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
Where are the predictions for Durability,  Health & Fertility.  Wouldn't that be the place to start rather than have to add it later?
from select sire
Stay - Stayability (Red Angus & Simmental) - The stayability
EPD predicts the probability of a bull’s daughters
staying in production to at least six years of age compared
to daughters of another bull. Reported as a percentage, a
higher value is desirable.

I do believe you need to be in whole herd reporting.

also from CSU

http://beefmagazine.com/mag/beef_stayability_epds


larkota thinking PatB should have known this. maybe Red Angus & Simmental just have a bigger problem with it or forward thinking, just wait AAA is trying to get on the same band wagon.
Is making it to six a great feat?  I usually don't even know them by number until they are at least 8.   Whole herd reporting= Bovine Common Core
I believe one of your fellow beef producers in your state sells everything at 5 or younger.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:09 pm

PatB wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
larkota wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
Where are the predictions for Durability,  Health & Fertility.  Wouldn't that be the place to start rather than have to add it later?
from select sire
Stay - Stayability (Red Angus & Simmental) - The stayability
EPD predicts the probability of a bull’s daughters
staying in production to at least six years of age compared
to daughters of another bull. Reported as a percentage, a
higher value is desirable.

I do believe you need to be in whole herd reporting.

also from CSU

http://beefmagazine.com/mag/beef_stayability_epds


larkota thinking PatB should have known this. maybe Red Angus & Simmental just have a bigger problem with it or forward thinking, just wait AAA is trying to get on the same band wagon.
Is making it to six a great feat?  I usually don't even know them by number until they are at least 8.   Whole herd reporting= Bovine Common Core
I believe one of your fellow beef producers in your state sells everything at 5 or younger.
good point Pat; but of course, not a longevity thing...those cow`s epds are outdated by then; replaced by better ones...PROGRESScheers 
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df



Posts : 613
Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:17 pm

Kent Powell wrote:
larkota wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
Where are the predictions for Durability,  Health & Fertility.  Wouldn't that be the place to start rather than have to add it later?
from select sire
Stay - Stayability (Red Angus & Simmental) - The stayability
EPD predicts the probability of a bull’s daughters
staying in production to at least six years of age compared
to daughters of another bull. Reported as a percentage, a
higher value is desirable.

I do believe you need to be in whole herd reporting.

also from CSU

http://beefmagazine.com/mag/beef_stayability_epds


larkota thinking PatB should have known this. maybe Red Angus & Simmental just have a bigger problem with it or forward thinking, just wait AAA is trying to get on the same band wagon.
Is making it to six a great feat?  I usually don't even know them by number until they are at least 8.   Whole herd reporting= Bovine Common Core
Less than half of the females that calve at the age of two will calve at the age of six, in most herds.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:52 pm

df wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
larkota wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
Where are the predictions for Durability,  Health & Fertility.  Wouldn't that be the place to start rather than have to add it later?
from select sire
Stay - Stayability (Red Angus & Simmental) - The stayability
EPD predicts the probability of a bull’s daughters
staying in production to at least six years of age compared
to daughters of another bull. Reported as a percentage, a
higher value is desirable.

I do believe you need to be in whole herd reporting.

also from CSU

http://beefmagazine.com/mag/beef_stayability_epds


larkota thinking PatB should have known this. maybe Red Angus & Simmental just have a bigger problem with it or forward thinking, just wait AAA is trying to get on the same band wagon.
Is making it to six a great feat?  I usually don't even know them by number until they are at least 8.   Whole herd reporting= Bovine Common Core
Less than half of the females that calve at the age of two will calve at the age of six, in most herds.
registered data or commercial? if commercial , where from?
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df



Posts : 613
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:03 pm

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
larkota wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
Where are the predictions for Durability,  Health & Fertility.  Wouldn't that be the place to start rather than have to add it later?
from select sire
Stay - Stayability (Red Angus & Simmental) - The stayability
EPD predicts the probability of a bull’s daughters
staying in production to at least six years of age compared
to daughters of another bull. Reported as a percentage, a
higher value is desirable.

I do believe you need to be in whole herd reporting.

also from CSU

http://beefmagazine.com/mag/beef_stayability_epds


larkota thinking PatB should have known this. maybe Red Angus & Simmental just have a bigger problem with it or forward thinking, just wait AAA is trying to get on the same band wagon.
Is making it to six a great feat?  I usually don't even know them by number until they are at least 8.   Whole herd reporting= Bovine Common Core
Less than half of the females that calve at the age of two will calve at the age of six, in most herds.
registered data or commercial? if commercial , where from?
Registered
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:07 pm

Less than half of the females that calve at the age of two will calve at the age of six, in most herds.

registered data or commercial? if commercial , where from?

Registered


why?


ok, so ert tell us results...do they provide a "why" answer? is a bull with a better ert an answer?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:40 am

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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:38 am

"It also revealed that Neanderthals and humans interbred about 50,000 years ago."

larkota thinking, Tru-line an idea older then Larry. Shocked 
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:03 am

TD, thinking that larkota still exhibits some hybrid vigor.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics    Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:22 pm

PatB wrote on Advantage...

Quote :
Those of you that have genomic tested some animals have you checked the recalibrated genomic profiles today? The results are far more inline with my animals actuals then they have been in the past. temperament scores are a big change on some of the animals and they reflect what I am seeing on the ground.
so the genome data is beginning to verify what you already knew? wow...I`m going to rush out and get me some kits to back up what I see and say...trust but verify eh? Smile
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