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 Pine bank november 13 newsletter

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OAK LANE FARM



Posts : 95
Join date : 2010-09-25

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:02 am

larkota wrote:
Will wrote:
   It is mind blowing at the number of cows, in the prime of their life that are getting harvested because they are OPEN!  

hard to harvest eggs from a bred cow   Crying or Very sad 

larkota welcome back Will.
They can IV cows through the first 100 days of pregnancy
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Will



Posts : 220
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:03 am

So you aren't the lucky bugger! I am going to do my best to join you guys. Maternal first is my new slogan....Whoops I forgot I am a terminal Wagyu breeder now. Shocked  Idea 
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Will



Posts : 220
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:06 am

Thanks Larkota. You guys make way to much sense. Now that's a wall hanger...Hard to harvest eggs from a bred cow. Now that is funny.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:19 am

rummaging through my photobucket , looking for the marbling cow, I came across a forage cow...I forget the source, I tagged her dydaughter...anyone willing to claim her?  Very Happy 

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larkota



Posts : 371
Join date : 2010-09-23
Age : 57
Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:11 am

MKeeney wrote:
rummaging through my photobucket , looking for the marbling cow, I came across a forage cow...I forget the source, I tagged her dydaughter...anyone willing to claim her?  Very Happy 


my question would be...does a reg number matter with a cow like that?

to get back on topic...what would a Pinebank bull add or take away from her?

can she reproduce herself or should she be bred to a terminal type?

does it depend on what the market demands ??

picture pretty but what about production?

Larkota like Sergeant Schultz "I hear nothing, I see nothing, I know nothing!"
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:19 pm

larkota wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
rummaging through my photobucket , looking for the marbling cow, I came across a forage cow...I forget the source, I tagged her dydaughter...anyone willing to claim her?  Very Happy 


my question would be...does a reg number matter with a cow like that?

would she be more valuable as parent stock if she was close bred?

to get back on topic...what would a Pinebank bull add or take away from her?

what could any bull add to her without taking something away from her?

can she reproduce herself or should she be bred to a terminal type?

terminal is easy; reproducing her takes a breeder; trying to make her do all things best is ignorance of natural law...

does it depend on what the market demands ??

commercial market? yes...registered market? never

picture pretty but what about production?

I`d about guarantee it...

Larkota like  Sergeant Schultz "I hear nothing, I see nothing, I know nothing!"

mk, seeing nothing but good today  cheers
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Tom D
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Age : 38
Location : Michigan

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:03 pm

Must be sale season, welcome back guys.

DT, not buying.
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pukerimu



Posts : 246
Join date : 2012-06-02
Location : Norsewood, New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:00 pm

That is a REALLY nice cow!!! Hoping Leroy can even see some of ours today - gloom and cloud up there in the mountains - meant to clear later - fingers crossed
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:14 pm

pukerimu wrote:
That is a REALLY nice cow!!!  Hoping Leroy can even see some of ours today - gloom and cloud up there in the mountains - meant to clear later - fingers crossed

I agree" THAT IS REALLY A NICE COW" Now that cow is not a power cow nor is she a curve bender, Just a cow that is priced by the pound. Just a sad deal when you realize that main stream Angus breeders would walk right past this cow for some unfertile swing bag bitch that resembles a bull with one nut still hangin. W.T Thinkin That is the Halle Barry type not the Oprah Type preferred by many.
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OAK LANE FARM



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:45 pm

a paternal sister pictured summer 2013 Fairview, Alberta Can
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:37 pm

That kinda makes me think that the cow is pretty important as those two paternal sister share some quality's but not all, as the Blk-Wht Cow is far more my liking with the nice rounded rump and the cleaner neck. But than we cant all like Halle Barry.
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RobertMac



Posts : 377
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:03 pm

MKeeney wrote:
larkota wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
rummaging through my photobucket , looking for the marbling cow, I came across a forage cow...I forget the source, I tagged her dydaughter...anyone willing to claim her?  Very Happy 


my question would be...does a reg number matter with a cow like that?

would she be more valuable as parent stock if she was close bred?

Does it matter, if she can reproduce herself?

to get back on topic...what would a Pinebank bull add or take away from her?

what could any bull add to her without taking something away from her?

Does it matter, if she can reproduce herself?

can she reproduce herself or should she be bred to a terminal type?

terminal is easy; reproducing her takes a  breeder; trying to make her do all things best is ignorance  of natural law...

Does it matter, if she can reproduce herself reguardless of what the ignorant breeder does?

does it depend on what the market demands ??

commercial market? yes...registered market? never

Does it matter, they all end up in the same market...the meat market?

picture pretty but what about production?

I`d about guarantee it...

'NOUGH SAID!

Larkota like  Sergeant Schultz "I hear nothing, I see nothing, I know nothing!"

mk, seeing nothing but good today  cheers

RobertMac, thinking W.T has a fixation?
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MKeeney
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Posts : 4624
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:01 pm

W.T. wrote:
That kinda makes me think that the cow is pretty important as those two paternal sister share some quality's but not all, as the Blk-Wht Cow is far more my liking with the nice rounded rump and the cleaner neck. But than we cant all like Halle Barry.

obviously, the above female doesn`t work out as often as Halle...I wonder if she works at all...most certainly not for her food  Cool 
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:11 pm

RobertMac wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
larkota wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
rummaging through my photobucket , looking for the marbling cow, I came across a forage cow...I forget the source, I tagged her dydaughter...anyone willing to claim her?  Very Happy 


my question would be...does a reg number matter with a cow like that?

would she be more valuable as parent stock if she was close bred?

Does it matter, if she can reproduce herself?

to get back on topic...what would a Pinebank bull add or take away from her?

what could any bull add to her without taking something away from her?

Does it matter, if she can reproduce herself?

can she reproduce herself or should she be bred to a terminal type?

terminal is easy; reproducing her takes a  breeder; trying to make her do all things best is ignorance  of natural law...

Does it matter, if she can reproduce herself reguardless of what the ignorant breeder does?

does it depend on what the market demands ??

commercial market? yes...registered market? never

Does it matter, they all end up in the same market...the meat market?

picture pretty but what about production?

I`d about guarantee it...

'NOUGH SAID!

Larkota like  Sergeant Schultz "I hear nothing, I see nothing, I know nothing!"

mk, seeing nothing but good today  cheers

RobertMac, thinking W.T has a fixation?

No Doubt Robert I do prefer a type, and I do enjoy looking at my preferred type!! Now I can see one of those loose skinned big eared Beefmasters, and only a mother could love that, or do you call that the Whoopi Goldberg Type.... lol! lol! lol! 
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:24 pm

MKeeney wrote:
W.T. wrote:
That kinda makes me think that the cow is pretty important as those two paternal sister share some quality's but not all, as the Blk-Wht Cow is far more my liking with the nice rounded rump and the cleaner neck. But than we cant all like Halle Barry.

obviously, the above female doesn`t work out as often as Halle...I wonder if she works at all...most certainly not for her food  Cool 

Your right Mike feed can change quite few things and by no means is that paternal Sister a poor cow just a bit more flushed but still a touch cresty in the neck and a higher tail head. But far from those Olympic Ski jump rump's on those elite power cows that are worth so much, Mike that cow could fit in my herd pretty well, and would be better than some and not as good as others but all in all not too much wrong with here I just like that first cow with the big eye the wide muzzle and the way she fits together just a nice blend that I like to see in cows.. BTB Has a pretty fair Heifer there that should make some money. W.T Thinkin cows are cows but I do like em pretty.
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EddieM



Posts : 895
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:00 pm

W.T. wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
W.T. wrote:
That kinda makes me think that the cow is pretty important as those two paternal sister share some quality's but not all, as the Blk-Wht Cow is far more my liking with the nice rounded rump and the cleaner neck. But than we cant all like Halle Barry.

obviously, the above female doesn`t work out as often as Halle...I wonder if she works at all...most certainly not for her food  Cool 

Your right Mike feed can change quite  few things and by no means is that paternal Sister a poor cow just a bit more flushed but still a touch cresty in the neck and a higher tail head. But far from those Olympic Ski jump rump's on those elite power cows that are worth so much, Mike that cow could fit in my herd pretty well, and would be better than some and not as good as others but all in all not too much wrong with here I just like that first cow with the big eye the wide muzzle and the  way she fits together just a nice blend that I like to see in cows.. BTB Has a pretty fair Heifer there that should make some money. W.T Thinkin cows are cows but I do like em pretty.

Or maternal is an important influence, too?
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RobertMac



Posts : 377
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:46 pm

W.T. wrote:

No Doubt Robert I do prefer a type, and I do enjoy looking at my preferred type!! Now I can see one of
those loose skinned big eared Beefmasters, and only a mother could love that, or do you call that the Whoopi Goldberg Type.... lol! lol! lol! 

You should watch what you say about "big eared"...remember, the NSA is listening Suspect
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PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:50 am

February 2014

Although the New Zealand dollar is stable at the moment, sheep and beef farmers are making little progress.
Dairy prices keep on rising which Government takes to mean that farmers are having no problems.
Once the Minister of Agriculture was either Prime Minister or second Minister, now he is either on the back benches or just above them. Once New Zealand’s income was based on the production of high class food and we had the second highest standard of living in the world. Now we are much lower largely through poor descisions and poor Government management.

This month I am going to talk about Phenotype verses Genotype. One is of no importance and the other of vital importance.

Phenotype

This is what an animal looks like. There is no way that this will tell you how an animal will perform. Yet it is the most popular method of selecting sires for your herd.
Phenotype is largely produced by feeding, and its main criteria is the ability of the animal to lay down fat evenly.
Neither of these characteristics have anything to do with the ability of the bulls to pass on economic characters to its offspring. The main reason for the purchasing of the bull working on this principle is that ‘ like tends to produce like’ unfortunately this is rarely so!

It is important in any breeding program that the cattle herd be recorded as it is just as easy to go backwards as it is forward, so constant checks must be kept to make sure that you are going in the right direction.

I suspect that very little improvement has been made in the international herd in the last 40 years. The only true way to find out would be to bring back a number of old bulls with proven semen and run them through the present population to see how they compare today.
Probably little would be gained by such an experiment except to iIlustrate whether the present system of breeding was working and if not why not ? I say that it is not working and in my Newsletter I have explained why!

Genotype

It is the code that we all get at the moment of conception.
Up until now the only way you could tell anything about this code was to progeny test and even that was not very accurate.
Today in the latest research DNA testing can and does identify all the important economic characterists. Not enough evidence of its accuracy has been collected but the CAC which did the Australian and New Zealand research assure me that they have run many checks to assure us of its accuracy.
For those that wish to use it, it opens up plenty of potential but lets hope that the new breeders of tomorrow have the intelligence to breed an animal with balanced importance and that it does not encourage the present rush for single characteristics breeding with all its present problems.

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:10 am

Phenotype

This is what an animal looks like. There is no way that this will tell you how an animal will perform. Yet it is the most popular method of selecting sires for your herd.
Phenotype is largely produced by feeding, and its main criteria is the ability of the animal to lay down fat evenly.
Neither of these characteristics have anything to do with the ability of the bulls to pass on economic characters to its offspring. The main reason for the purchasing of the bull working on this principle is that ‘ like tends to produce like’ unfortunately this is rarely so!



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EddieM



Posts : 895
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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:24 am

MKeeney wrote:
Phenotype

This is what an animal looks like. There is no way that this will tell you how an animal will perform. Yet it is the most popular method of selecting sires for your herd.
Phenotype is largely produced by feeding, and its main criteria is the ability of the animal to lay down fat evenly.
Neither of these characteristics have anything to do with the ability of the bulls to pass on economic characters to its offspring. The main reason for the purchasing of the bull working on this principle is that ‘ like tends to produce like’ unfortunately this is rarely so!


Phenotype: didn't Bonsma use it to judge more than fat? Aren't feet and leg quality, including proper stride, part of phenotype? Isn't teat placement, size and udder quality part of phenotype? Mothering ability? Hair?

Like might not produce like, but bad will generally produce more bad if it is fertile enough to do so. (Hint: Will, bad = terrible)

"...make sure that you are going in the right direction."
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:30 am

EddieM wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Phenotype

This is what an animal looks like. There is no way that this will tell you how an animal will perform. Yet it is the most popular method of selecting sires for your herd.
Phenotype is largely produced by feeding, and its main criteria is the ability of the animal to lay down fat evenly.
Neither of these characteristics have anything to do with the ability of the bulls to pass on economic characters to its offspring. The main reason for the purchasing of the bull working on this principle is that ‘ like tends to produce like’ unfortunately this is rarely so!


Phenotype: didn't Bonsma use it to judge more than fat?  Aren't feet and leg quality, including proper stride, part of phenotype?  Isn't teat placement, size and udder quality part of phenotype?  Mothering ability?  Hair?

Like might not produce like, but bad will generally produce more bad if it is fertile enough to do so. (Hint: Will, bad = terrible)

"...make sure that you are going in the right direction."

I`m pretty sure what you see is not always what will be...to make it be more often, would seem to be the role of a breeder...
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RobertMac



Posts : 377
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:18 pm

MKeeney wrote:
EddieM wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Phenotype

This is what an animal looks like. There is no way that this will tell you how an animal will perform. Yet it is the most popular method of selecting sires for your herd.
Phenotype is largely produced by feeding, and its main criteria is the ability of the animal to lay down fat evenly.
Neither of these characteristics have anything to do with the ability of the bulls to pass on economic characters to its offspring. The main reason for the purchasing of the bull working on this principle is that ‘ like tends to produce like’ unfortunately this is rarely so!


Phenotype: didn't Bonsma use it to judge more than fat?  Aren't feet and leg quality, including proper stride, part of phenotype?  Isn't teat placement, size and udder quality part of phenotype?  Mothering ability?  Hair?

Like might not produce like, but bad will generally produce more bad if it is fertile enough to do so. (Hint: Will, bad = terrible)

"...make sure that you are going in the right direction."

I`m pretty sure what you see is not always what will be...to make it be more often, would seem to be the role of a breeder...

Some of us believe that closing the herd would help too.
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tulip



Posts : 39
Join date : 2011-08-28

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:09 pm

[quote="MKeeney"]Phenotype

This is what an animal looks like. There is no way that this will tell you how an animal will perform. Yet it is the most popular method of selecting sires for your herd.
Phenotype is largely produced by feeding, and its main criteria is the ability of the animal to lay down fat evenly.
Neither of these characteristics have anything to do with the ability of the bulls to pass on economic characters to its offspring. The main reason for the purchasing of the bull working on this principle is that ‘ like tends to produce like’ unfortunately this is rarely so!
[quote]

In my humble opinion the phenotype of a bull may not tell me much about what he is; but more what he is not. It is always easier to pick out the bulls that are not good enough, than it is to pick out the ones that are good enough. And "good enough" is "enough", so any bull that has no glaring faults will  pass my possibly superficial sorting.
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pukerimu



Posts : 246
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Location : Norsewood, New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:29 pm

For my two cents worth - when a herd is producing cattle that are performing uniformly, look very alike - both males and females (not males that look like females and vice versa  jocolor  - where the males all look alike and the females all look alike  Smile ), inter-generationally, then I humbly beg to differ about phenotype not producing what you would expect or the bull not replicating himself - he is in effect a replica of his brothers who are in turn replica's, in the main, of their uncles and cousins. Likewise the heifers are replicas of their dams who are replica's of theirs etc etc.

Unless a breeder has gone out on an absolute limb and introduced completely different family lines or cattle types I think it is fairly certain bet that what you see is what you get. I draw this observation from our own herd which has been bred and selected on type over many years - we take photos of the sale bulls every year and every year the bulls all look the same and the average sale day weight is about the same - year in year out. Some might suggest that is not improvement however a) how big do you want them and b) sometimes the same is as good as improvement if others are relying on your cattle to improve their own and c) there are other issues like continual quality in feet, temperament and fertility that must stay the same year in and year out and from our observations are frequently sacrificed in the pursuit of "excellence"  Evil or Very Mad  - usually number related and about as far from reality as possible - again - just my two cents worth.
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Grassfarmer



Posts : 850
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Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:23 pm

I thought the comments regarding "phenotype" were very true - but only with respect to the appearance of bulls prepared for sale in the conventional, mainstream purebred industry.

"This is what an animal looks like. There is no way that this will tell you how an animal will perform. Yet it is the most popular method of selecting sires for your herd.
……….. is largely produced by feeding, and its main criteria is the ability of the animal to lay down fat evenly.
Neither of these characteristics have anything to do with the ability of the bulls to pass on economic characters to its offspring. The main reason for the purchasing of the bull working on this principle is that ‘ like tends to produce like’ unfortunately this is rarely so!"

I think phenotype with respect to actual body shape of cattle in working and growing condition and mature cattle is a totally different thing with a different set of requirements.
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