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 Pine bank november 13 newsletter

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falloon2



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Join date : 2010-09-24

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:04 pm

No heritability in fertility. This I find hard to understand, there certainly is heritability for fertility in sheep. An experiment done in NZ where one of our scientist set out to breed a twinning mob of cattle. He collected a mob of cows that had all had at least one set of twins and put them too a bull whose was one of a twin. For ten years he selected for twins and did not succeed in achieving any, So he came to the conclusion that there was no heritability in fertility. We have for some reason a high twinning rate in our stud herd but they are a nuisance. Firstly because the cows gets the strongest one and wanders off leaving the weaker one behind. Or else the weaker one always has trouble pushing the stonger one away when feeding. You can remedy this by tying the two calves together with two dog collars and a short piece of chain. There is also the factor that if they are oposite sexs then there is, I thing 80% chance that they are 'Free Martins', which means that the female is infertile but this can be easily seen by a defind pinkness on the Virginia.
It appears that if you flush cows as they are coming up to the bull. That is when we get twins but if the cow weans them then she is barren the following year which is not what you want

Cannot think of any more question to answer at the moment
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:31 pm

I don't agree at all with your twin comments Mr Falloon, at least that certainly has not been my experience. We had a small purebred Simmental herd at one time and they were prolific twin breeders - all from one cow line. Every female in that line had twins, some twice and I don't think we ever retained a twin heifer as they were all freemartins. We never used a bull that had been a twin but the prevalence of the females to have twins in that family line was strong.
See it in the cattle I have now too - if you get twins once in a family you'll see it in descendants down the line.

But surely researching the ability to reproduce twins doesn't disprove that there is heritability in fertility? That seems like an apples and oranges comparison.
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:05 pm

I agree with Mr. Falloon...twins are a nuisance.

I'm going to be using a bull that was a twin for the next couple of years...we'll see what happens.
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:23 pm

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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:35 pm

Twins are one place I don't mind investing a little time and management - the rewards are so high.
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:54 pm

We too have a high rate of twins in our herd - 9 sets this calving - we use them as spares for cows that lose a calf and if no spare cows usually hand rear those kicked off - last year we had scours which killed one hand reared and made another two incredibly sick - decided the 100+ year old woolshed was not up to being a calf rearing shed so borrowed a couple of cull dairy cows from the neighbour this year - they are rearing 5 calves between them (and think they have died and gone to heaven), we have a set on their own mother in the same mob (preferential feeding), one was given away as a pet day heifer and two mothered on. We rarely keep the heifers - do not take the risk that they are not freemartins and have traditionally made such a poor job of hand rearing them that they are not up to much as weaners in any event. We have decided in our own crude analysis that it is a trait inherited from the cows - but also depends on nutrition when the bulls go out - well fed cows = higher % of twins. I agree with Grassfarmer - a little bit of extra time reaps big rewards - they are a bonus on the balance sheet and make calving % look pretty damn good!
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:30 pm

I have so enjoyed reading this question/answer session....

Couple of conclusions I have drawn from it...
Cattle generally have to look good to sell good; I don't think inbreeding is the hindrance to "variation is the source of change " as it is to looking good....to sell good...

Most all selection is still for beef; not maternal...reasonable criteria since the product IS beef...my product is females ; a beef industry won't readily accept that...or will claim the same, but there is a difference in my mind between selecting for females versus selecting for beef...and culling the females that don't work...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:20 am

http://beefmagazine.com/cattle-genetics/do-beef-cattle-have-biological-limit-productivity


highlights

"We have celebrated per-animal production as if it is the Holy Grail of livestock production,” says Tom Field, director of the Engler Agribusiness Entrepreneurship Program at the University of Nebraska. “It serves as the basis for our sustainability message, our pride in being productive and the pride we take in feeding people.”

In other words, there are biological and physiological limits that extend across species...

“People don’t want to hear it, but I can find no credible evidence suggesting the average weaning weight per calf has increased in this country for the last 10 years,” said Stan Bevers, a Texas AgriLife Extension agricultural economist. That was in the January 2012's “U.S. Beef Cow Productivity Is Stagnant.”

“From a pure profit perspective, at what point in time does one more pound of production not return value?” Field wonders.

“Nature limits us all the time,” Field says. “We can’t fear those limits, but must respect them. Once you cross that threshold, you have a world-class wreck on your hands.”
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:11 pm

It's a balance.
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EddieM



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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:44 pm

RobertMac wrote:
It's a balance.
Or not.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:00 am

pukerimu wrote:
We too have a high rate of twins in our herd - 9 sets this calving - we use them as spares for cows that lose a calf and if no spare cows usually hand rear those kicked off - last year we had scours which killed one hand reared and made another two incredibly sick - decided the 100+ year old woolshed was not up to being a calf rearing shed so borrowed a couple of cull dairy cows from the neighbour this year - they are rearing 5 calves between them (and think they have died and gone to heaven), we have a set on their own mother in the same mob (preferential feeding), one was given away as a pet day heifer and two mothered on.  We rarely keep the heifers - do not take the risk that they are not freemartins and have traditionally made such a poor job of hand rearing them that they are not up to much as weaners in any event.  We have decided in our own crude analysis that it is a trait inherited from the cows - but also depends on nutrition when the bulls go out - well fed cows = higher % of twins. I agree with Grassfarmer - a little bit of extra time reaps big rewards - they are a bonus on the balance sheet and make calving % look pretty damn good!


The beef cowherd must expand in the next 1-4 years,” says Randy Blach, CattleFax CEO. “If it doesn’t, don’t kid yourself; we’ll have a smaller industry and move beef from the center of the plate to more of a specialty item.”


Megan, in reference to the above,
where is NZ beef consumed? Is choice grade your goal? must have been the goal of the influx of 36 etc to NZ?
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pukerimu



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Location : Norsewood, New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:36 pm

Morning - from what I have seen and read the NZ grading system is not nearly as involved or evolved as the US - traditionally we have had Prime grades 1 and 2, then lesser grades from there. There is a new system being implemented at one processor after exhaustive taste testing (mostly in the States) to grade the meat more definitively with colour charts for meat and fat, ph testing and levels of bone ossification. I will attach a link to this process at the end.

You are right when you observed there has been much 036 infused in NZ herd - mostly through a heavily used son bred in Australia Te Mania Unlimited - fortunately he is tested free from DD but many of the attempts by NZ breeders to bring in other sons of 036 to replicate the success of Unlimited has resulted in heartache and huge testing bills as DD suspects are rife in some herds. Where I say success I am referring to popularity - he has bred a couple of handy sons but that is probably more likely due to the dam line than anything else.

There are two bands of registered Angus breeders in NZ - those who pay absolute attention to the numbers and their breeding programme is dedicated to "improving the numbers" and those that pay absolute attention to their cattle and their breeding programme is dedicated to improving their cattle. With the two factions moving in sometimes polar opposite directions the differences in the cattle are becoming so marked that even the most unobservant is starting to notice. The grading system to which I referred was used at a recent "hoof and hook" show on the East Coast of North Island - a strong hold of breeders "improving their cattle" (for which they are subject to sniffs of derision by some of our Angus Council - we were there to observe!) where the first second and third placed animal on the hooks using this new "meat is everything" judging system at the works were cattle which trace their lineage to a herd which is seemingly breeding the worst cattle imaginable under our figure generating system but apparently they do not look to bad on either the hoof, or the hook, as the hoof judge had them all in his top 5 too.

The traditional NZ cattle already had good levels of marbling and intra muscular fat as they were short nuggety types - those that have preserved the type while improving the frame and everything else about them will prosper under the meat grading system - I am not so sure about those cattle brought into the country already carrying the mantra of being "great carcase" sires - after all - the measurement of their success has been on a feed lot generally and their daughters have never before had to climb vertically up a hill where they are expected to be at the top of in NZ.

The boss has just asked - has anyone ever seen 036 in the flesh? Could you see his "carcase" as in the photos we have seen he looked like a "lean assed bastard" (end of quote  Shocked )

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/beef/9300182/Huge-red-meat-taste-test-set-to-pay-off
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:39 pm

Pukerimu, Great post. I could not agree more. Way to many people in America think all you need is a computer to breed cattle. We never used 036 because we had the same opinion of him as you do. Never saw him in person. We used a son of 878 and got along really good. Thank goodness 878 dodged Fawn Calf and DD. We got along really well with sons of Future Direction 5321 until AM and NH showed up. Did new Zealand use Future Direction or any of his sons?
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:05 am

Hi Will - lots of Future Direction in NZ - again often through sons bred in Australia - again resulting in huge amounts of testing for some herds (anecdotally many of the cattle that have to be tested for all or any of the defects in large numbers reside in the same groups of herds) - we were never tempted by CA Future Direction 5321 ourselves as we were not using much A/I at the time he was "the bull" - we are usually up to our eyeballs in lambs to dock at the time the bulls are out, or A/I required, and have been happy with the results from the bulls we were using. Good news that you had good results from him - I hope you did not have to many testing costs  Crying or Very sad 
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:50 am

Thanks for hoping we didn't have to many testing costs. We did but the real killer was the results. affraid  Future Direction lacked performance so we used sons that were out of a little higher performing cows. Future Direction was not the total answer but he was way better than 036. We quit AIing a long time ago. What bloodlines are you using? Any from America? This is a really good thread.
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:09 am

Sorry to hear that Will. Devastating!

No direct US in our herd at the moment and to be honest the stuff that is currently in vogue and being touted is leaving us cooler than cold - we have a few bloodlines you will recognise but perhaps I will let the Keeney's Corner contributor who is coming to visit tomorrow Very Happy  tell folk what our cattle are made of if he so chooses - if not, then I will bore you with the details but if I told you know that the biggest US influence in our herd is PD Big Sky you will no doubt go  cyclops and draw your own conclusions  Smile seems to be working for us but we have learnt from experience how much is to much  Wink 
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:22 am


Megan, in reference to the above,
where is NZ beef consumed? Is choice grade your goal? must have been the goal of the influx of 36 etc to NZ?[/quote]

Sorry Mike - did not answer - grinding beef is sent in vast quantities to the US (mostly bull beef - lean). The prime beef is consumed domestically and sent to the US (Marx Brothers distributing Angus as a branded NZ product in 50 States apparently), Australia, China (becoming a huge market for all things Kiwi), Japan, Russia, India, UK, Europe, Malaysia etc etc - we go global - of course for most of our markets there are quota's and tariffs in place but we do have a FTA in place with China (and maybe India too - don't quote me on that) and a Trans Pacific Partnership is being haggled over at the moment. By the time there is global free trade in agriculture NZ is likely to be one big dairy farm  Sad  at the rate at which farms are being converted and the meat processors are literally fiddling (stealing our lambs) while Rome burns  jocolor too many ego's, old boys and empire builders sitting in board rooms in my ever so humble opinion
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:42 am

pukerimu wrote:
Sorry to hear that Will.  Devastating!

No direct US in our herd at the moment and to be honest the stuff that is currently in vogue and being touted is leaving us cooler than cold - we have a few bloodlines you will recognise but perhaps I will let the Keeney's Corner contributor who is coming to visit tomorrow Very Happy  tell folk what our cattle are made of if he so chooses - if not, then I will bore you with the details but if I told you know that the biggest US influence in our herd is PD Big Sky you will no doubt go  cyclops and draw your own conclusions  Smile seems to be working for us but we have learnt from experience how much is to much  Wink 

Megan,
tell Leroy to get lots of pictures to share with us...tell him to be sure to photograph the worst cattle he sees, so we can tell how wide is the sort  Very Happy Very Happy 

Well, I see Will Houdini has re-appeared...he gives me chuckles everyday he posts at ACS; pricking the hot air balloons, then escaping their ballast in the same movement  Very Happy 
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:58 am

Pine Drive Big Sky? No that would not surprise me. I have owned lots of really great cows in my life time and several were sired by Pine Drive or a son of Pine Drive. I believe its all about the cow that you use any bull on. One of the best cows I ever owned was a Rito 2100 with a perfect udder going back to a bull everyone on here will laugh at. Nelson Bold Ruler! Its all about which genes are passed in any mating. She was a really good cow. Mike's on his way over? Great! That will be interesting! I've had a debate or two with Mike.  Very Happy  Devastating? Yes at first it was but now I am glad it happened. It made me focus on other things in life. Things were going way to easy. Oh, one other thing I found out about the Pine Drive's in my herd. They had really good teeth which helped them live a long life because they all were structurally sound and fertile. Another question...Are there many Wagyu over there?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:01 am

pukerimu wrote:

Megan, in reference to the above,
where is NZ beef consumed? Is choice grade your goal? must have been the goal of the influx of 36 etc to NZ?

Quote :
Sorry Mike - did not answer - grinding beef is sent in vast quantities to the US (mostly bull beef - lean).  The prime beef is consumed domestically and sent to the US (Marx Brothers distributing Angus as a branded NZ product in 50 States apparently), Australia, China (becoming a huge market for all things Kiwi), Japan, Russia, India, UK, Europe, Malaysia etc etc - we go global - of course for most of our markets there are quota's and tariffs in place but we do have a FTA in place with China (and maybe India too - don't quote me on that) and a Trans Pacific Partnership is being haggled over at the moment.  By the time there is global free trade in agriculture NZ is likely to be one big dairy farm  Sad  at the rate at which farms are being converted and the meat processors are literally fiddling (stealing our lambs) while Rome burns  jocolor too many ego's, old boys and empire builders sitting in board rooms in my ever so humble opinion

tis the nature of the human beast; greed the most virulent of the seven deadly sins...often our death, not theirs  Mad I wondered if there was a true economic demand that created the movement to marbling, or was this just like one of those snowball fads that has rolled over common sense throughout US cattle breeding history...
of course, 036 cattle look and perform to a certain extent like Wagyu...if lean cattle marble, they are going to be that type...we can`t seem to learn that there`s a type that comes with the territory/characteristics...milk has it`s corresponding type, so does muscle, so does marbling...and there`s a cow type that always matches the steer...


a marbling cow
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:15 am

This is way to good of a thread to pass up. I got a new password. I really never left. Just could not post. Lots to learn at the Corner. Really looking forward to the knowledge. You lucky bugger! The American cattle industry is passing the point of no return. We are running out of bull producers that understand the value of the Maternal cow. The past couple of years I have been following the slaughter cow market. It is mind blowing at the number of cows, in the prime of their life that are getting harvested because they are OPEN! EPD's and most of the Research people in America are leading us down the wrong path. My question is..... will we have enough good open maternal heifer calves every year to replace the opens in the future? Not the way we are going. Have a safe trip and bring back the knowledge. This is going to be beyond great!
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:29 am

thx Will,
it`s Leroy Thorstad who is already in NZ that is visiting Megan; we`ll be gathering at Leroy`s {Hoffman, MN} this summer , the Friday of the Aug 1weekend...then down to Larkota`s place{Kimball, SD} on Saturday...you might as well start making plans to join us...  cheers 
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:33 am

Will wrote:
will we have enough good open maternal heifer calves every year to replace the opens in the future?

Of course, of course, ... the technology of sexed semen will yield plenty of heifers.
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:54 am

Eddie, just like the dairy industry! It is mindboggling at the money left on the table with these terminal cows having one, two or three calves.
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:58 am

Will wrote:
   It is mind blowing at the number of cows, in the prime of their life that are getting harvested because they are OPEN!  

hard to harvest eggs from a bred cow  Crying or Very sad 

larkota welcome back Will.
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