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 Pine bank november 13 newsletter

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falloon2



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Join date : 2010-09-24

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:06 pm

Your cows remain in your herd as long as they remain fertile but some are good and some are average and some are below average which you cull if you wish. The cow is of little importance as she only leaves one calf per year. It is the bull out of that cow who gives you that progress. The important thing is that every bull is out of a cow that has calved every year. Like the bull the best heifer left by a cow is better than her dam.
the Cows like every thing else, leave a good calf this year and a bad one next year it is due to the randomise of genes that she happens to strike when getting her code.

There is this obsession with the cows in America the cow is just a gestation medium for improvement. It is the bull with its multitude of progeny that is where all improvement comes from

There is no heritability in fertility so the only way too improve it is to cull all cows that fail to get in calf, then any shy breeder, then any cow that fails to walk in at weaning without a calf.
Top bulls come from anywhere in the herd. Because of randomisation top bulls can come from anywhere but having got there they carry with then the heritability for that character,
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MVCatt



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Age : 42
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:11 pm

I think this is where our philosophies differ...after we identify our "best", I'm not really looking to improve them. I'm just looking to make more of them. If we think they are the "best" why can't we just be happy with what they are, rather than try to "improve" (and change) them?
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falloon2



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:26 pm

Sorry I missed the bit about the bull.
If you keep using the same bull year after year you are sure standing still you are contributing the same set of genes into your population and you are not going anywhere. But this great bull that you fancy his best son is better then he because he has picked up the best genes from his mother and his father. He would not be the best if he had not. I gotoer go
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Grassfarmer



Posts : 850
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:49 pm

I'm not following this at all. If the "best bull", defined as the one exhibiting the best performance of that calf crop, is created from a totally random gene combination from any cow in the herd how can we expect his progeny to display anything other than the same randomness? Or is there a difference between the male and female of the species that allows the male to somehow perpetuate superior traits consistently whereas the female can produce the best or worst calf each year?
Hypothetically you breed a bull to the same 20 cows for several years. We all know the calves will be different from year to year out of the same cow - some better, some worse. Is there scientific evidence that the difference all comes from the cow and none from the bull? How much of the difference is genetic anyway versus a cow just having a poorer calf for environmental reasons (like she was pulled down in condition at breeding time for example?)
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Hilly



Posts : 406
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : Sylvan Lake, Alberta

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:58 pm

falloon2 wrote:

Wrote in part...

"Someone wrote the limitation of genes and of environmental stress.      WELL THERE IS 'NO ' LIMIT TO ANYTHING BIOLOGICAL, IT WILL SLOW DOWN (but not until a 200 years have past)BUT IT WILL CARRY ON.    I repeat that there is millions of genes  some of them very high performing.     The object of the exercise is to get too those high performing genes and build them into your population     What breeders find very hard to get their mind around is that that comment is true!"

Another hypothetical, If we were to put all the bovine genes that exist in the world today in a jar we have “limited” them in my mind.
Are you relying on mutations and or drift for your advancement and if so what would you think the odds would be that the drift happens to be in our favor?

If you constantly concentrate on only the best genes in the jar and cull the poor ones out are you not reducing the range of variation left in the jar?

  In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system cannot change—it is said to be conserved over time. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but can change form
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pukerimu



Posts : 246
Join date : 2012-06-02
Location : Norsewood, New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:13 pm

I too am perplexed - if for example you have a bull which is passing on exactly what you are looking for in your cows, is it not progress to continue using that bull for as long as you can so you are retaining the largest number of his cows which all exhibit the traits that you are desirous of?  With these cows then going on to pass their strengths to their offspring over many breeding seasons, than it is to discard the bull after one use and trying another which may or may not pass on desirable traits due to the randomness of his genetic makeup?

It has been our experience that the bulls that breed the cows we are wanting leaves those cows alike and dependable, and they in turn go onto replicate themselves more times than not, and if not, it is due to the bull choice or environmental factors.  Angus is a maternal breed - as seed stock producers we see it as our responsibility to be striving to breed the sale bulls that are most likely to give their purchasers value for money by breeding dependable productive cows for as many years as the buyer chooses to keep them - not until they break down or crumble under pressure.  It is also our experience that the bulls sold that breed the heifers that are required also breed excellent steers.

I think we should be more obsessed with the cows than the bull but then maybe that is my xx's talking  Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:28 pm

Mr Fallon I respectfully disagree:
Human mitochondrial DNA was the first significant part of the human genome to be sequenced. In most species, including humans, mtDNA is inherited solely from the mother.[3]
The great races horse of all time are believed to have inherited there LARGE HEARTS in which gave them there abilities to to run so fast entirely from there mothers. The legendary Secretariat was said to have a heart that weighed 22 lbs and the normal thoroughbred has a heart that weighs 10 Lbs. Here is a interesting read. http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/large-heart.html.

So many of these genes that make the BEST Bull only can be passed on from the dam. IMO It is all about the cow. And the bull is just the delivery method. And in time we will find out if he was any good, or maybe even the BEST.
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EddieM



Posts : 895
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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:16 am

falloon2 wrote:
Sorry I missed the bit about the bull.
If you keep using the same bull year after year you are sure standing still you are contributing the same set of genes into your population and you are not going anywhere.    But this great bull that you fancy his best son is better then he because he has picked up the best genes from his mother and his father.     He would not be the best if he had not.     I gotoer go

My question is, "Where are you going?" What criteria are you using to judge superiority in a unproven bull? Are fairly high cull rates of females expected when a bull does breed his superiority, I assume, of growth?

And this is not meant as mean or insensitive, but is it "right" to believe that the youngest bulls are the best yet sell semen to others from older bulls that, by your own standards, are inferior?
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PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:36 am

Could Gavin's approach to breeding concentrate the more desirable gene combinations for selected traits? A passing comment from Dr Beever about reducing the frequency of undesirable gene combinations for desired traits could have far greater benefit then heterosis from crossbreeding comes to mind. No suggestions were given how to accomplish this. Gavin's breeding stratergy of selecting the best bulls every year for his desired traits plus revisiting bulls that show exceptional merit in offspring after initial use could be a way to reduce undesirable gene combinations.
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RobertMac



Posts : 377
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:18 am

Mike, why do you always equate my "making a program tougher" with "starving a profit out of them"?

In support of Mr. Falloon, the Lasater Foundation herd uses the philosophy of "turning the genetic crank". They pick the "best bulls" and use them in open range, multi-sire breeding which allows Nature to keep her hand in the process. Females are ruthlessly culled based on what they bring to the weaning pen. And if nothing, they are gone.

The more we keep Nature in the process, the harder it is for us to screw thing up.

Pat, single trait selection is never a good idea.
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PatB



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Age : 53
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:16 pm

RobertMac wrote:
Pat, single trait selection is never a good idea.

I agree.
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MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4624
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:39 pm

pukerimu wrote:
I too am perplexed - if for example you have a bull which is passing on exactly what you are looking for in your cows, is it not progress to continue using that bull for as long as you can so you are retaining the largest number of his cows which all exhibit the traits that you are desirous of?  With these cows then going on to pass their strengths to their offspring over many breeding seasons, than it is to discard the bull after one use and trying another which may or may not pass on desirable traits due to the randomness of his genetic makeup?

It has been our experience that the bulls that breed the cows we are wanting leaves those cows alike and dependable, and they in turn go onto replicate themselves more times than not, and if not, it is due to the bull choice or environmental factors.  Angus is a maternal breed - as seed stock producers we see it as our responsibility to be striving to breed the sale bulls that are most likely to give their purchasers value for money by breeding dependable productive cows for as many years as the buyer chooses to keep them - not until they break down or crumble under pressure.  It is also our experience that the bulls sold that breed the heifers that are required also breed excellent steers.

I think we should be more obsessed with the cows than the bull but then maybe that is my xx's talking  Laughing
Megan,
I've stated before I believe Angus is a terminal breed, selected first for meat quality, then since the ""performance era", selected for growth...either feedlot or grass, and the by product is the cow, who breeders have kept functional in most instances...
I suppose this could be more a terminology issue....
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MKeeney
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Posts : 4624
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:47 pm

RobertMac wrote:
Mike, why do you always equate my "making a program tougher" with "starving a profit out of them"?

In support of Mr. Falloon, the Lasater Foundation herd uses the philosophy of "turning the genetic crank". They pick the "best bulls" and use them in open range, multi-sire breeding which allows Nature to keep her hand in the process. Females are ruthlessly culled based on what they bring to the weaning pen. And if nothing, they are gone.

The more we keep Nature in the process, the harder it is for us to screw thing up.

Pat, single trait selection is never a good idea.
Probably in reaction to the bs from the little man in CO...so what is tougher? Shorter breeding season? Why should I try to improve 96 % when it is less costly
To merely cull the 4 %...I want stability, and while that seems mundane to the movers, it is the most difficult achievement of all
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MKeeney
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Posts : 4624
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:53 pm

falloon2 wrote:
Sorry I missed the bit about the bull.
If you keep using the same bull year after year you are sure standing still you are contributing the same set of genes into your population and you are not going anywhere.    But this great bull that you fancy his best son is better then he because he has picked up the best genes from his mother and his father.     He would not be the best if he had not.     I gotoer go
Many a best bull from a great cow have produced dismal daughters...there must be a better way of gene delivery...
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:21 pm


Why should I try to improve 96 % when it is less costly
To merely cull the 4 %...I want stability, and while that seems mundane to the movers, it is the most difficult achievement of all.

And this is the goal to reduce the culls % of the herd. Well Put Mike.

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pukerimu



Posts : 246
Join date : 2012-06-02
Location : Norsewood, New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:41 pm

[quote="MKeeney
Megan,
I've stated before I believe Angus is a terminal breed, selected first for meat quality, then since the ""performance era", selected for growth...either feedlot or grass, and the by product is the cow, who breeders have kept functional in most instances...
 I suppose this could be more a terminology issue....
[/quote]

Perhaps they were brought to the US as a meat breed but they came to NZ as a choice to deal with the undeveloped steep country and have gone on from there - NZ farmers choose the Angus cow because she is the one at the top of the hill getting the last blades of grass while her coloured compatriots are more likely to be found at the bottom of the hill waiting at the gate for a shift.

Angus being viewed more so as a terminal meat breed in other countries would go a long way to explain some of the feet that have come into the country over the years - feet and foot structure are a big selection criteria in NZ and most Angus stud breeders guarantee the feet on their bulls for 3 years - we rarely have to refund ourselves and take everyone as a personal failure  Crying or Very sad  - not sure about other breeders. The cow is a multi purpose tool for sheep and beef country - they produce income with a weaner or finished beefie (depending on whether the cow owner also owns finishing country) and they clean up the rank and prepare the pasture for ewes to lamb onto and then for lambs to be finished on - again depending on the contour and quality of the land.
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Grassfarmer



Posts : 850
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:34 pm

How recently did people start referring to their cattle as "maternal" versus "terminal" types? I guess it depends on location but using "maternal" to characterize a breed doesn't happen in Scotland to my knowledge.
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Tom D
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Age : 38
Location : Michigan

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:22 pm

I love my mom. She is an excellent mother. I would consider her to be the epitome of the word MATERNAL.

Here is a list of ten terms that I would never use to describe my mother:



1. Powerful
2. Meaty
3. Growthy
4. Easy Fleshing
5. Soggy
6. Belly Dragger
7. Muscular
8. High Performance
9. Outlier
10. Good Bitch




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Kent Powell



Posts : 606
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:27 pm

Just think how good cattle could be if we didn't have to select for growth in several forms for 40 years after 30 years of selecting against it.
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pukerimu



Posts : 246
Join date : 2012-06-02
Location : Norsewood, New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:33 pm

In NZ maternal vs terminal started when what we would refer to as "exotics" - Charolais, Limousin, Simmental etc came into force in 80's and early 90's - these breeds were used over the Hereford/Friesian cows and no replacements were kept ....... ever - hence the expression "terminal" - often the cow herself would be culled after rearing the one calf, either as a boner cow (terminology for cull dairy cows) or given time to fatten - meanwhile the next wave of Here/Friesian hand reared dairy by-product heifers were put to an exotic bull to get the enormous weaners that were highly sought after - drought, farming down turns and lack of fertiliser have made this practise less prevalent as with the dairy boom any land that was suitable to run the Hereford/Friesian cows on has been converted to dairy or dairy support, or dairy beef lean bulls are run, and the beef (maternal breeds) cow have been pushed further and further into the hill country.  NZ exports much lean grinding beef (dairy bull) to the US to be mixed for hamburger - I am not sure what the ratio of prime vs lean is now but for many years the quotas were taken up almost entirely with grinding beef and bull beef was worth more per kilo than prime steer .................. I know!!!  jocolor 

I have seen the terminology "maternal" being used in the US though and seemingly it is a point of difference ............. correct?

We refer to some sheep breeds as "terminal sires" and have done so for many years - these are the black faced breeds which are usually put over the youngest and oldest ewes for fat lamb drafts while the mixed age ewes are run with the same breed ram to produce the required number of replacement ewe lambs - of course the surplus ewe and ram lambs are fattened also - this comes from the wool side of the industry - Romney and Perendale sheep for example are referred to as course wool breeds (as opposed to Merino being fine) and the fibre is used in carpet and upholstery manufacture - taken a hiding from synthetics - before the UK joined the EEC and we had unfettered access to that market the annual wool cheque on a large place could pay for a new vehicle - now it covers the shearing costs plus a bit more - we live in hope that wool will again take it's place as the renewable, environmentally conscious choice for carpets - until then the white faced breeds are usually sounder footed and hardier than their meat bred cousins so most ewe flocks are still "white faced".

Tom D ........ lol!  Classic
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:03 pm

Tom D wrote:
I love my mom. She is an excellent mother. I would consider her to be the epitome of the word MATERNAL.

Here is a list of ten terms that I would never use to describe my mother:



1.   Powerful
2.   Meaty
3.   Growthy
4.   Easy Fleshing
5.   Soggy
6.   Belly Dragger
7.   Muscular
8.   High Performance
9.   Outlier
10. Good Bitch





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui4RJ3Fqy9w  Tom you are indeed a classic and for gods sake don't change.lol! lol!
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EddieM



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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:00 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
How recently did people start referring to their cattle as "maternal" versus "terminal" types?  I guess it depends on location but using "maternal" to characterize a breed doesn't happen in Scotland to my knowledge.

More so since EPDs have been used to "exotic-ize" the British breeds. The AAA got famous with the cow/elephant ad blitz and turned around and has tired to convert Angus to elephants in mass ever since with CAB and show ring winners that got bigger and bigger. One thing for chicken breeds by type, they do have weight ranges that the breeds need to fit into and breeders target.
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falloon2



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:23 pm

Puberue appears to come from NZ>     Can you put up your herd affixs so that I can see how you are breeding.     He is parshley right, there are studs remaining that never went the American way, ours included.
Grassfarmer your problem.       You are right in that high performing animals or humans or anything biological can and do come from anywhere in their breed, due to the randomise of gene selection at their moment of conception.       That is why you select your best bull because in order to get there he has happened to get the best genes of both bull and cow!       If you use him you are injecting your best genes back into your population.    If you keep doing this you are slowly building   your best genes back into your population.     Keep doing this then the chances becomes higher that your animals will begin to make progress   Which I can assure they do
To return to this single factor selection mentioned in growth that is goal of the moment.       Breeder go off and purchase the highest growth bull their finances will allow .,    Growth is antagonistic too fertility so while their growth is improving their cows are losing fertility.        It does not matter how high your growth is if you have no calves which is where you will end up.    Remembering that we are back at our just cows.


I wish to remind those rancher with which I communicate in this Forum
I am not a scientist but have the privilege of knowing and  speaking and touring with the worlds top beef scientists.       We travelled for a week at a time while we lectured and dinned at night together and shared a bottle of wine.        He treated me as an equal and I even conversation ranged far and wide.      I spent my whole life studying genetics,          It all began when I approached DR t>S Ch'ang of Massey to help advising me on my stud herd in 1960.    He began helping on our herd in 1964     Waigroup as far as I know was the first breedin group in the world.
My sole object is to begin cattle breeders to begin thinking in a different way.     Our total breeding programme is available to anyone who wishes to study it.     It was one of the
conditions of NZGovt when they let me employ one of their geneticist.     Through this I have had pa[per access to all the leading scientists in the world.        Have applied to and recieved
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falloon2



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Join date : 2010-09-24

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:43 pm

I am sorry I got a computer lock up so finishing my comment of where I stand

all research as they were produced occasionally before they were published. Could and did communicate direct to my contact at Clay Centre Nebraska for information that I required.

It is not my intention to tell anyone how to breed cattle or anything else. Rather it is to show that there are other ways. That the present system does not work, never has and never will, that if someone was to run a check to see what progress had been made in beef production in the last 50 years they would find none.

They are your cattle and you must breed them as you wish. It is while everyone is doing the same thing that there is no progress. If someone has the courage to go in a different direction they must be encouraged not criticized. When I left the Angus Council , I suggest that they put one of their members on to watch what we were doing, after all we might be breeding cattle that would not passed their inspection! We were 10 years on the way when the first council member tiptoed in to see us. He was very surprised to say that they just looked like good angus to him
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:25 pm

Breeder go off and purchase the highest growth bull their finances will allow ., Growth is antagonistic too fertility so while their growth is improving their cows are losing fertility. It does not matter how high your growth is if you have no calves which is where you will end up. Remembering that we are back at our just cows.

And Ft Keogh and the Line ones were living proof of this statement. selection for Higher yr wt, and as the wt goes up so does dystocia 35% assisted birth's. And the fertility problems were unbelievable.
Thanks for the responses as this is a good debate that should continue. W.T Thinkin good stuff.
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