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 Pine bank november 13 newsletter

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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:27 pm

Now I am more confused than ever! As best is a ever-changing term that has a new meaning from everyone at any time! Then I called a wise man and conclude that the BEST is My wife as she is perfect in every way.......... W.T realizing I now can define the BEST. And when I read about a cow being the best, it is just BS.
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:00 pm

W.T. wrote:
Now I am more confused than ever! As best is a ever-changing term that has a new meaning from everyone at any time! Then I called a wise man and conclude that the BEST is My wife as she is perfect in every way.......... W.T realizing I now can define the BEST. And when I read about a cow being the best, it is just BS.  

I believe what I said is "she is the best because she made me a better person."

Larkota not a wise man but a slow learner.
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:46 pm

falloon2 wrote:
We have found that the experience of weighing at birth it is possible to pick those bulls that are going to turnout best at birth.

So what about the birthweight of a calf tells you that he will turn out best? large birthweight, small birthweight or large or small birthweight relative to frame size?


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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:49 pm

falloon2 wrote:
The definition of the best seems to be a universal problem.    I thought that I had posted what we do on my last reply.    It did not seem to be posted so here it is again.

All our cattle are recorded and we are going to select the best twenty bulls.       We use 4 bulls per 100 cows.    We do this to make sure that we hit the best progeny tested bull each year and the bulls are used as yearlings.    We bring in the top 20 bulls on performance plus any bull that for some reason has attracted our attention during the year.   Every bull is examined carefully for structural soundness and temperament feet etc.   Then we add the bulls that have attached our attention         We have found that the experience of weighing at birth it is possible to pick those bulls that are going to turnout best at birth.      The selection of the best bulls is of course very important and you can point your herd in any direction with what you select.     'You' have total control of your herd!.  

I believe Gavin`s definition of best is well defined as more weight within the parameters of the time, his environment, and the characteristics noted above; I believe that has been his "best" for a long, long time now...closing a herd and breeding your own cattle is not BS; it`s serious business...a serious read  of his writings would include...

What happens in a programme like ours is that as the average rises, so does the top by the same amount ,thus keeping the variation the same. This means that if we have variation and the top is + 50 kilos above and the average of the sires that we select is +30 and we are selecting for growth, then we should in that year make a gain of +15.
But because of our multifactor selection we would be lucky to make +2.

The fact that there is no end to the improvement is because with the millions of genes involved there are endless combinations.

There are no two people in the world that are identical just the same as there no two cows or bulls or anything biological for that matter; I do not know about identical twins? I must find out but in those that I know there some minor differences which to me would indicate that their codes have some minor differences.

The big problem is going to be for future generations of my family to keep the programme going in its entirety. Interestingly, it is much easier to run the programme than it is to go out and purchase bulls. William has never been through the hassle that that creates and the number of times that you make a mistake, by buying a completely unsuitable bull. And then you are stuck with it, especially if it cost you a lot which they frequently do


Gavin has said that variation is what allows him to make progress in his "best" direction; he not only accepts variation; he endorses it...but because Pinebank is a true breed {right on Kent  Exclamation , everyone make their breed}, want to bet how much less variation there is at Pinebank compared to the Angus, red or black, breeds? that closed herd holds the " multifactor " variation in check...

Chatted a moment with LL today; he`s kinda stymied on his next post...I mentioned I was going south; and had decided I wasn`t stopping anywhere to look at cattle and hear the same stories...for, I quote "there`s really nothing left to see" and I whole heartily agree; I enjoy the people, but that`s why God made cell phones and computers...and another LL quote came to mind from back some time ago when silently frustrated with a bull buyer wanting "it all" ..."why don`t you go home and breed your own perfect cattle because I don`t have any"...

yes Grassy, the "at birth" thing confuses me as well and I look forward to Gavin`s reply...I do remember Ned Biffle kept a tape handy at birth and measured from the elbow of the front leg to the hairline above the hoof...it worked extremely well for

Angus, the Business Breed
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jonken



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:24 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
falloon2 wrote:
We have found that the experience of weighing at birth it is possible to pick those bulls that are going to turnout best at birth.

So what about the birthweight of a calf tells you that he will turn out best? large birthweight, small birthweight or large or small birthweight relative to frame size?



 My thought and /or EXPERIENCE at birth plays big,better , best in any stockman's decision and has nothing to do with weight .  Jon
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:35 am

DO THIS...

Mr. Falloon wrote:
I expect the breeder to cull his cows if they are infertile, do not rear a satisfactory calf. Do not mother well and all the things that you require from your cows. So you are left with a line of cows that are perfect ally suited to your environment. It is from this mob that you select the best bull.

NOT THIS...

KP wrote:
The problems that are tolerated in pursuit of the BEST, are the problem with the industry.

I started as an educated dirt farmer, so I'm more ignorant that the rest of you. After I wasted six figures and learned the mainstream industry wasn't fixing my cattle, I started trying to learn from the best sources...ma nature and my cattle. First, I wanted cattle that passed natures test...survival and reproduction. This was without the pampering of the registered industry, but with the basics a commercial cattleman has to survive on. The cows that brought a good calf to the weaning pin EVERY year are my BEST cows. This is selection for maternal.
My BEST bulls will come from those cows. For me, it is that simple.
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falloon2



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:53 pm

Well done KP . That is right down the line. Of course those bulls from those cows are the best that you can ever get. They represent animals bred for your environment Not some animal selected on some totally unrealistic shape plus.

My apology on my poorly written birth weight comments. There is no perfect birth weight as long as its birth is completed and the calf is complete and the cow untroubled.
What I meant was that experience has shown us that the shape and behaviour and something about the calf indicates to us too watch that calf grow because he will be a sire as a yearling.
and there is something about an 'outliner ' that we can identify one at birth

KP approach is the approach that we all need. That is how we must change our thinking. It is your herd your environment whose says their bull in better. (I do, only because I have been going longer}
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:02 pm





Everyone has their own definition of best. That is why they need to have their own breed. Descriptions become tougher and tougher as terminology becomes widely used the meaning becomes blurred and twisted. I have lost several potential semen customers because I don't use the term easy fleshing and I hate "belly draggers" and many terms the Stockman Grassfarmer magazine uses to describe "grass" cattle.

Well put Kent. IMO it takes discipline to learn to let the personnel selection gravitate to the allowances of the environment! And then is when progress becomes unbridled and the cattle actually move forward to a more predictable outcome. But do we consider the impact we have on the environment into our selection process? A 20lb increase per calf in ww weight could be attributed to timely precipitation, More precipitation in a year, less heat, Warmer winter. These factors are seldom equated into the equation, but have far greater bearing to the human eye in his quest for BEST. And I guess that is my issue with the Phrase of best. The greatest influence on our cattle has been the drought 3 straight years of record drought, moisture at the wrong time, too hot at the wrong time and too cold at the wrong time, and All beyond my control. And yes it effects every aspect of the cow herd, we find the ones that out produce the environment first as they will be open  elephant , then we find the ones that save themselves at the expense of the calf, they sure look good but wean a dink  farao  Then we find the cattle that have the ability to adapt to the environment, and these are not the best cattle but the AVG cattle that wean a decent calf they breed back and pay the bills. And no one would look at these cattle and call them the BEST as they are just cows. I have a difficult time believing that genetics alone can keep producing MORE without the help of timely rains and temperature's that allow for the environment too produce MORE not the cow.
W.T just a opinion that doesn't include BEST
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falloon2



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:18 pm

Well done W.T those cows that survived the droughts are real gold. The fact that they could handle the drought means that it is physically possible, so keep an eye on them and if possible keep a separate herd but that is not necessary. If you were using your top bulls then they would be out of the best cow that handled the drought. The genes are there and it is possible.
What does it matter that they are not the accepted view of conformation, perhaps the accepted view is wrong. If you had had a herd of the accepted standed that you were very proud off and they all died in the drought it would be of no value.
This is the reason that when we began we decided that the environment would dictate the composition of the cows that was doing our objectives. Strangle enough our cows that are surviving on less feed and calving 98% are just looking more classical or maybe my judgement has changed.

Changed thinking again!

Mike the photos of the two bulls that you put up, I could explain . Not that they are not good bulls possible exceptional, but if I did then your AAA would certainly sue me as they have threaten to do twice already. Your AAA is obviously reading my Newsletters plus, not because they wish to learn anything, because they know everything, but to try to catch me out and have a legal case
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:38 pm

falloon2 wrote:
Well done W.T those cows that survived the droughts are real gold.     The fact that they could handle the drought means that it is physically possible, so keep an eye on them and if possible keep a separate herd but that is not necessary.      If you were using your top bulls then they would be out of the best cow that handled the drought.    The genes are there and it is possible.
What does it matter that they are not the accepted view of conformation, perhaps the accepted view is wrong.     If you had had a herd of the accepted standed that you were very proud off and they all died in the drought it would be of no value.
This is the reason that when we began we decided that the environment would dictate the composition of the cows that was doing our objectives.     Strangle enough our cows that are surviving on less feed and calving 98% are just looking more classical or maybe my judgement has changed.

Changed thinking again!

Mike the photos of the two bulls that you put up, I could explain .  Not that they are not good bulls possible exceptional, but if I did then your AAA would certainly sue me as they have threaten to do twice already.      Your AAA is obviously reading my Newsletters plus, not because they wish to learn anything, because they know everything, but to try to catch me out and have a legal case

Gavin,
the above is just a classic post...you have a wonderful way with words; but you do scare me a little about this AAA thing...if they would sue you, they might imprison me since you can`t sue blood out of a turnip...but I think the new leadership is likely different; I told the current head man once I was tired of  registering and transferring cattle that I had developed a market for; and AAA coming along and building a mailing list of my customers so the mainstream could advertise against me...in a few more words, he basically told me he AAA did not give a damn what I did or thought...after all, there`s a sucker born every minute; why bother with one swimming upstream?

funny, this post came in just as I was going to post another Holden Caulfield quote over on the Tru-line thread in reference to Larry`s last long post...it sure works here as well... cheers 

What really knocks me out is a book {or quote...mk} that, when you're all done reading it, you wish the author that wrote it was a terrific friend of yours and you could call him up on the phone whenever you felt like it. That doesn't happen much, though
Holden Caulfield Catcher in the Rye
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:17 pm

of course, as I have argued with RobertMac before, I must say that I now have determined the type cow I want, and I, not nature, is making selection for type; nature only selects the culls here...there might be one drought year in ten here; shall I breed for the ten good or the one bad ?

so I first ask, is the cow that handles the drought best also the one that is best when there is no drought? I`m going to adjust herd numbers to accommodate drought, something I can do immediately, rather than adjust years of breeding...

after 200 years of so called livestock improvement, do we still not know what type of cow fits differing kinds of environments? do we still not know what type of animal is a by-product of selecting for the various characteristics of beef cattle?
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:53 pm

I Merely discovered the ones capable of adapting.
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:01 pm

W.T. wrote:
I Merely discovered the ones capable of adapting.

constant or variable type in those Wayne?
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:26 pm

Consistent, middle of the road type cattle, nothing spectacular in any feature. I have brought cattle here from Fescue area's and they adapt rather well, and I have bought cattle local that didn't. I am to the conclusion that some cattle have the ability to adapt and others just cant. we have maybe 3 good years out of 10, it used to be about 6 out of 10. The bull from Kentucky adapted quickly.... Cant remember the breeding on him but not sure it is important. In November My wife and I went to the Croker art Museum and there was a painting that caught my eye. And to describe it IMO is to describe a cattle breeder. The Kings head lay on a pillow made of fine silk and Lace. The silk and lace looked so real it was difficult to distinguish if it was real or merely paint, The blood from where the queen cut the kings head off was so real you would think it was wet. I guess the artist had learned to have just the right mix of paint, just the right touch and the right vision to make it all look so real. I cant remember the artist or the name of the painting. I do remember that it was painted in the 1500's. the relevance of that painting is that is exactly what LL and GF have is the ability to mix the paint just right and the touch to put it on the canvas, not to thick and not to thin, so in the end we must realize that each of us will have our own masterpiece, and Yours and mine will vary to a high degree, as will Gavin's and Larry's. So for one to describe the BEST is just like that painting, It is what it is.
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:18 pm

W.T - shows that minds do think alike regardless of geography or culture - one of our favourite phrases is "why settle for a "paint by numbers" when you can have a masterpiece" when referring to cattle that have been bred from years of careful selection, culling and talent (masterpiece) and those that some talentless hick has asked his computer to spit out the "best" performance data to plan matings (paint by numbers)...................... hello??!!

As to what is the Best or how to judge the Best - hard to define - IM(humble - ofcourse)O Wink  the best is determined by many factors - terrain, feed and farming conditions - the best animals are the ones that have the best performance (weight gain, fertility, calf rearing, ease of handling etc) for their environment - a good suggestion for anyone wanting to find the best would be to determine your own breeding goals and find a seed stock producer who has been farming under similar conditions for many years, is not full of BS and self promotion, appears to share your goals and give their cattle a try - can always call it a learning experience if it turns out badly. The best test of a stud is to look at their cows - not the ones in the show barn or front paddocks - the ones out doing the business like your cows at home - if there are none to be seen then go somewhere else where they can be seen - again IMO  Wink 
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:35 am

pukerimu wrote:
- a good suggestion for anyone wanting to find the best would be to determine your own breeding goals and find a seed stock producer who has been farming under similar conditions for many years, is not full of BS and self promotion, appears to share your goals and give their cattle a try 

Fair enough but why not take it a stage further? - close your herd and use your own?
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:05 pm

MKeeney wrote:
W.T. wrote:
I Merely discovered the ones capable of adapting.

constant or variable type in those Wayne?

Not so much a consistency of type but an upper limit on production traits (energy and feed requirements). The quest to go smaller or lesser is a waste of a resource and will backfire with excess fat.

I think that I have a better handle on Mr. Falloon's system: He picks the males and nature picks the females. I wonder if he keeps track of the cull rate of females by sire? What % annual cull rate is average on heifers and % annual cull rate on cows? Is it the biggest cost of the selection system?
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:36 pm

EddieM wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
W.T. wrote:
I Merely discovered the ones capable of adapting.

constant or variable type in those Wayne?
olor=#33ffff]33ffff]
Not so much a consistency of type but an upper limit on production traits (energy and feed requirements).  The quest to go smaller or lesser is a waste of a resource and will backfire with excess fat.

I think that I have a better handle on Mr. Falloon's system: He picks the males and nature picks the females.  I wonder if he keeps track of the cull rate of females by sire?  What % annual cull rate is average on heifers and % annual cull rate on cows?  Is it the biggest cost of the selection system?

Dead on eddie the limits were reached environmentally and genetically. IMO The higher producers out produced there environment and the underachievers produced what there genetics would allow, And the middle ones had a sustainable balance,of genetics that adapted to the allowances of the environment. As far as me getting a handle on anyone else's program it will never happen, as there program will never be Mine and I have my hands full with mine. IMO what we can learn from each other is how do we recognize the genetics that can adapt to different environments with a somewhat of a consistent basis. You and I have talked about the Homer cattle and they have worked for you and me in two distinct different environments, and not one of them would I have ever considered the BEST, but maybe the least NOTICED.
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:59 pm


Fair enough but why not take it a stage further? - close your herd and use your own?[/quote]

Anything stated below is our observations - no intent to judge criticise or comment on anyone else's breeding goals, philosophies or personal beliefs. Now got that out of the way ..................

Very fair question - this year of the stable of 6 breeding bulls we will use - 3 will be our own - over the years there have been some of our own bulls used (and unsurprisingly they have all had an impact on the herd and many cows breeding very well for us) and to be honest it is becoming harder and harder to find outside bulls which offer us anything. As seed stock providers though we cannot always be seen to be not offering the best to our clients - we have sold many "commercial" bulls over the years which while being excellent were just not "stud quality" - do not think it is a coincidence that, as we have started to see bulls coming through that are, and making us confident to keep, so have other stud breeders and we have been selling one to two stud bulls every year now for the last 5 or so. It is always easier to be "objective" when looking at other people's breeding - subjectivity of one's own cattle can be blinding.

We have other commercial clients with large numbers of cows that buy what they perceive to be the best bull for them at our place every year and then every year retain what they perceive to be the best sons as bulls for their multitude of cows - we wouldn't like to be seen to be encouraging the concept of "closing herds" - would make selling our bulls pretty difficult  Smile .

Our herd is 46 years old - it started with 9 heifers and now numbers 200 and something - the something is variable. For the first 20 or so years it was in rapid building phase - not our playing field - we inherited the stud herd (well actually bought from parent's but who is splitting hairs) in '97 and had a very strict culling and selection programme for the females since then while still building numbers ................. slowly. Remembering that prior to '97 much of the selection in NZ had been for "big is best" which was the rule of thumb - there were specific genetics chased and while our herd at that stage was not being line bred the seed stock provider of choice was actively line breeding and therefore most of our cows are related - closely - to one another already. Fortunately the thickness and natural fleshing of the NZ cattle before the pursuit of big was not lost entirely to our herd and we have been actively building on it - which is another reason that our cows are closely related on cow lines.

One of us had been observing the herd closely in the years before '97 but had limited say in sire choices. The other came with "fresh eyes" and no sense of what was a given so questioned everything.

Several observations we have made over the last 17 years - to close a pedigree in the young stock and these attributes disappear or are severely impaired - in order of most noticeable quickest (again our observations of our own cattle based on the pedigrees) temperament (not aggressive usually but hysteria becomes apparent under pressure), strength of head (in males), jaw, testicular size in males and fertility in females, fleshing ability, foot structure and then other minor conformational problems. Our herd is not large enough to breed a raft of animals that have to be culled - from our bull calf drop in 2012 of 89 bulls (heifers out numbered them by a third - made it easy to select a line of those for replacements that year!) we are hoping to catalogue 55 - 60 in June this year - when we take out automatic culls at weaning age for rearing issues etc, those selected to sell as yearlings to repeat annual buyers, then fighting and other obvious problems before they get to 2 there is not a lot of wriggle room for poor mating decisions.

We have spent much time researching and analysing other unrelated pedigrees when outside genetics purchased to ensure that they will preserve and hopefully enhance our breeding goals without taking anything away - two of the aged outside bulls we have in our possession at the moment will have son's retained when they have done their time - at the moment they are as fit as buck rats - we love them and they are breeding very nice females (the market seems to think their bulls are pretty good too!) - we are busily populating the cow herd with their genes and then will use sons to carry on the tradition.

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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:01 pm

I'm not as good as Mike, every time I pick "the best", more times than not, they prove me wrong.
I keep the female tied to the environment by requiring her to do the most important job...reproduce. The other half to that is to not manipulate her environment except when necessary.

If too high a percent of females stay in the program, make the program tougher.
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:29 pm

RobertMac wrote:
I'm not as good as Mike, every time I pick "the best", more times than not, they prove me wrong.
I keep the female tied to the environment by requiring her to do the most important job...reproduce. The other half to that is to not manipulate her environment except when necessary.

If too high a percent of females stay in the program, make the program tougher.

Excellent - wishing I could be of so few succinct words  cheers 
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:19 pm

RobertMac wrote:
I'm not as good as Mike, every time I pick "the best", more times than not, they prove me wrong.
I keep the female tied to the environment by requiring her to do the most important job...reproduce. The other half to that is to not manipulate her environment except when necessary.

If too high a percent of females stay in the program, make the program tougher.

Probably more correct to say I'm breeding to minimize the bad...the good is good enough; and very careful not to go backward; and experimenting outside has been a backward result....making conditions tougher will simply make poorer producers look better than they are...we need to get over this idea that anyone is making a cow more efficient; defined as lbs calf per unit feed...I donT buy anything as proof less than weighing the feed...
Not by group ;by individual
And Nothing is more silly than the Pharo gerrish efficiency by size BS
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:49 am

Selling seems to always get in the way of breeding..I remember Gavin saying we don't need to be doing the same thing...I'll add nor the same way...I laugh at how some little twerps of bulls I!m using would be received in Nz ...well, about like in the US Very Happy 
Breeders are always improving, but seem to neglect the reliability with which that improvement is passed on....cull is a word that is used too often by breeders that gives me an uneasy feeling....I just can't buy into the idea that culling rate is a positive when it comes to transmitting genes to the commercial producer....
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falloon2



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:08 pm

Many questions and much discussion. Where I come from is obviously not understood.
Our programme is not mine. All we are doing is applying the principals of the most modern theory of Population Genetics
Our herd is not closed. When I was running the herd, it was virtually closed because I decided that I had to get the herd off the ground in the beginning.

Someone wrote the limitation of genes and of environmental stress. WELL THERE IS 'NO ' LIMIT TO ANYTHING BIOLOGICAL, IT WILL SLOW DOWN (but not until a 200 years have past)BUT IT WILL CARRY ON. I repeat that there is millions of genes some of them very high performing. The object of the exercise is to get too those high performing genes and build them into your population What breeders find very hard to get their mind around is that that comment is true!
Because genes are sampled at random at the moment of conception every biological being is different. Whether it is people cattle or whatever makes no difference.
What we have found is that as our collecting of these high performing genes into our population the ceiling is moving ahead. The production of 'outliner' bulls performance is ahead every year, every year and appears to be gathering speed, which is what you would expect.

Now the guy who is using his old bulls year after year is standing still as is the whole population in America and in New Zealand, because how they are breeding is not going anywhere.
Every animal or human for that matter ' is only as good as the average performance of his progeny. Therefor his best son or daughter is better that he . That is quite simple and absolutely logical when you think about it. Genetics is logical and every thing in it is logical

Think about it and when you have grasped all that I have written then we will begin again , that sound crappy but it is not, I had as much trouble as you all when I began. Remembering the object of all my involvement is to begin to start you thinking. You will all breed differently then I and that is how it should be. That is the way that progress is made
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:59 pm

falloon2 wrote:


Now the guy who is using his old bulls year after year is standing still as is the whole population in America and in New Zealand, because how they are breeding is not going anywhere.
Every animal or human for that matter ' is only as good as the average performance of his progeny.     Therefor his best son or daughter is better that he  .   That is quite simple and absolutely logical when you think about it.      Genetics is logical and every thing in it is logical


Surely to continue to use a Bull which is ticking all the boxes and breeding outstanding daughters is not to stand still but to infuse his genetics as far through the herd as you can, to have a group of cows to make even more progress with, if you are lucky enough to strike the jackpot again, the bull you put over them? I cannot believe that anyone would discard their superior cows every year, in the expectation that their daughters will be better, so why the bull? Thoughts?
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