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 Pine bank november 13 newsletter

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PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:00 pm

November 2013

New Zealand has just had the world Angus Forum and its own 150th Angus celebration, amongst some division from within the Association. The overseas contingency of breeders which filled three buses were shown many American bred cattle.
The comment that we heard coming from the overseas visitors was “ Where are all the grassfed cattle that we hear about in New Zealand.”
You wonder at the advantages of them viewing cattle so similar to the American bred they have at home again, in a different country. Why were they not able to see our commercial and grass raised stud cattle being produced at half the cost of grainfed beef and possibly of much healthier value.

In all stud breeding there appears animals that are very superior. This occurs because these animals in the randomising of the millions of genes, happen to pick up the high performing genes (sometimes) of both parents. The chance of them doing this is very rare. But it can happen,depending on the size of the base population. Obviously the bigger the base the higher the chance.

What has happened in the past is that these animals have been mated to females representing the average performance of their population and so their superiority has slowly disappeared. In our case where the selection for the best bulls is on a yearly basis , we have been slowly building in the high performing genes into our population. As a result the first “outliner bull” appeared.
This bull came as a surprise to me, but it was logical that this should happen because of the slowly gathering of our high performing genes. The first bull to appear was 1021/69 and it was 300th bull calved after the breeding programme began.

1021’s progeny grew faster than halfbred charolais on a feedlot and was the first top progeny tested bull in Australisia. He went on to be the first Reference bull of the Australian Recording programme later called BLUP, where he remained top for some 10 years.

After 1021 came Waigroup 1/80. He was an outstanding bull for both bull’s and cow’s calves and was used in all the studs in the group at that time. His semen joined the International Progeny Test trial undertaken by Henry Gardiner’s at Ashlands Kansas. There he was compared to the two highest growth American bulls at that time.
I was informed that our bull came out top but the American Angus Society. Will not release their records too me so I can only go on heresay.

Our next bull was 100 kilos above average at weaning weight. Weaning weight is 80% the ability of a calf to grow during this period and only 20% dam milk.
Because this bull’s parents were not high performers BLUP penalized the calf very highly. We ignored the figures in Breedplan and used the bull extensively with a big improvements in our weaning weights.

There have been a number of superior bulls since then all of which have been added to our semen team. All these bulls have performed very well in our own herd where they have been used extensively.

As I stated the first “outliner” bull appear after approximately 300 hundred bulls had been born. The rate frequency wityh which they appear has increased until we are getting at least one per year. As the performance of the herd slowly creeps up so it requires the outliner bulls to be even higher performing.

The chance of this happening was never spelt out to me by the scientist. It is of course the manifestation of the high performing genes being slowly built into our population and the continuation of such. Where will it end? I have no idea. But the theory is that there is no end.
Remembering this performance is on the same commercial nutritional level.

There are two new bulls to add to our exsisting semen team.
The top; bull is Pinebank 64/10 he is some distance ahead of 41/97 who has done so well internationally.
64 is accompanied by bull Pinebank 85/05 this bull is not pure New Zealand and has one cross of American blood some 10 generations back. He too has progeny tested very well and has more than earned his place in our semen team.

We continue to climb slowly for all the important traits in the beef breeding cycle. From our semen you can expect an improvement in fertility in their daughters. More efficient drymatter conversion. Better ability to recover from stress.
More massive carcases in the bulls for the same food intake and higher cutting carcases.

In two years time we shall have been operating the programme for 50 years. There has never been any deviation from it since it began. During this time we have seen the cow herd increase its calving from low 80% to 98% on the same seasonal grass nutritional levels.
We have produced bulls that have been internationally highly successful in fact in most cases beating their opposition in whatever characteristic they were competing. All economic characteristics are steadily improving. The work is safely in the hands of the third generation of owners and hopefully many more.

We face the future with the utmost confidence. As we go into the next 50 years.

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:07 pm

You must keep interested and you must keep going. If you retire to your chair you are dead within a year and there is plenty of time for that.

Gavin
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:15 pm

How fitting that you put that quote up Mike. I lost my neighbour, one of my pasture landlords, on the weekend, 89 years old and died in a horrible accident when feeding the cows. Traumatic for the family he leaves behind but he died doing what he enjoyed most and what he still felt useful at. I've known others that retired and didn't last the year as Gavin says.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:14 am

Quote :
In all stud breeding there appears animals that are very superior. This occurs because these animals in the randomising of the millions of genes, happen to pick up the high performing genes (sometimes) of both parents. The chance of them doing this is very rare.
So are male outliers in a herd or a line useful? Are they better than outliers in a breed of somewhat separated genepools? They are rare due to genes numbering in the order of the 6th power yet can appear as stabilized improvers fairly quickly.

Quote :
In our case where the selection for the best bulls is on a yearly basis , we have been slowly building in the high performing genes into our population. As a result the first “outliner bull” appeared.
300 bull calves or about 600 calves (50/50 split of male and female assumed) one appears. Did any outlier females appear? Wouldn't it work quicker to select them, too? Breed outlier to outlier and speed up the process?

Quote :
Our next bull was 100 kilos above average at weaning weight. Weaning weight is 80% the ability of a calf to grow during this period and only 20% dam milk.
Because this bull’s parents were not high performers BLUP penalized the calf very highly. We ignored the figures in Breedplan and used the bull extensively with a big improvements in our weaning weights.
The problem with finding outliers was that "What has happened in the past is that these animals have been mated to females representing the average performance of their population and so their superiority has slowly disappeared." so here are parents that do not show high performance yet the son is a outlier. Where did that come from?

Quote :
As I stated the first “outliner” bull appear after approximately 300 hundred bulls had been born. The rate frequency with which they appear has increased until we are getting at least one per year. As the performance of the herd slowly creeps up so it requires the outliner bulls to be even higher performing.
These performance traits of the millions of genes are easy to select? Heritability is high for performance is the point, I guess.

Quote :
The chance of this happening was never spelt out to me by the scientist. It is of course the manifestation of the high performing genes being slowly built into our population and the continuation of such. Where will it end? I have no idea. But the theory is that there is no end.
Remembering this performance is on the same commercial nutritional level.
Performance increases on the same pastures but surely each animal eats more so it is more production per unit but more intake required? And the end will never be?

Quote :
There are two new bulls to add to our existing semen team.
The top; bull is Pinebank 64/10 he is some distance ahead of 41/97 who has done so well internationally.
Good enough: following the pattern of performance selection.

Quote :
64 is accompanied by bull Pinebank 85/05 this bull is not pure New Zealand and has one cross of American blood some 10 generations back. He too has progeny tested very well and has more than earned his place in our semen team.
We have to assume that the influence 10 generations ago is pretty well nil?

Quote :
We continue to climb slowly for all the important traits in the beef breeding cycle. From our semen you can expect an improvement in fertility in their daughters. More efficient dry matter conversion. Better ability to recover from stress. More massive carcasses in the bulls for the same food intake and higher cutting carcasses.
Selection for performance traits improves fertility in females? Stress recovery is based on the ability to eat and grow? Every time I read these newsletters I can never figure out how selection for performance ties the females to better fertility. Is there a severe culling of females to make the fertility stay up? Yet the story is that the daughters here in the US are good for feet and fertility. Did it just happen or is there more to know than performance testing?

My key wonderment: Or is the selection for superior males a way to unlink the female portion of the population from male selection so that the females remain their own population with their own traits?

Eddie, always wondering
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:48 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
How fitting that you put that quote up Mike. I lost my neighbour, one of my pasture landlords, on the weekend, 89 years old and died in a horrible accident when feeding the cows. Traumatic for the family he leaves behind but he died doing what he enjoyed most and what he still felt useful at. I've known others that retired and didn't last the year as Gavin says.

Larkota thinking Grassy and Mike are trying to tell me something.
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:06 pm

Iain and Mike you are very wise... As I have observed everyone that retires die's sooner or later...... So if larkota don't retire maybe he will live just a bit longer.. w.T Thinkin briann is looking for excuses not to retire.....Laughing 
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:07 pm

Quote:
64 is accompanied by bull Pinebank 85/05 this bull is not pure New Zealand and has one cross of American blood some 10 generations back. He too has progeny tested very well and has more than earned his place in our semen team.
 
We have to assume that the influence 10 generations ago is pretty well nil?
 
I thought I was a student of the program, but I guess I was mistaken.  I thought there was no outside influence.

We don't have to assume, but if we don't have an opinion things get pretty boring.  If every slot on the topside 10 generations back is the same one he is 50%. Just once is .09765625%. (Rat poison is 99.9% good food)   What selection has taken place determines how influential he was.   Any way.  If the influence is pretty well nill, on the flip side - why add it?   Much like using the hot bull and rolling generations.  In 10 years who cares- it is too diluted to matter- or is it?  It matters to me.  Perhaps not enough to matter to others.    If so,  my black tagged cows are cheaper than the Red, purple and yellows.  The only difference is an ancestor who doesn't  meet my criteria even though, if they are still here the cows do.  
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:18 pm

"Any animal showing superiority for any characteristic,carries with it its heretibility (as estimated) regardless of the performance of its parents"  Pinebank Website


Any animal, regardless of his own performance, carries with him the superiority of his parents.  His ability to pass on their superiority with more or less regularity lies in the breeding methodology used to produce him.

KP Teal hunter...
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:12 pm

Could outlier cattle have less loss of function gene sequences than there siblings/contemporarie? Every living thing has mutations some beneficial others not.
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:49 pm

What is a beneficial one?

Polled?

Wagyu marbling

Double muscling

...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:41 pm

PatB wrote:
Could outlier cattle have less loss of function gene sequences than there siblings/contemporarie?   Every living thing has mutations some beneficial others not.  
You got a point there Pat; my golf swing has mutated, but it has not been beneficial...btw, nice job of getting TB on the AAA board while in Louisville...the con-voy grows...
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jonken



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:18 pm

Kent Powell wrote:
"Any animal showing superiority for any characteristic,carries with it its heretibility (as estimated) regardless of the performance of its parents"  Pinebank Website


Any animal, regardless of his own performance, carries with him the superiority of his parents.  His ability to pass on their superiority with more or less regularity lies in the breeding methodology used to produce him.

KP Teal hunter...
So KP .... green , blue , or cinnamon ? Which is superior ?
Jon
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PatB



Posts : 455
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:48 am

Kent Powell wrote:
What is a beneficial one?

Polled?

Wagyu marbling

Double muscling

...
There are desirable and undesirable mutations for all traits such as feed conversion, growth, fertility, sound structure, teat size, udder attachment and the list goes on. The benefit of crossbreeding/use of outliers could be that there are less loss of function mutation in common between parents that result in increase fertility and growth and other traits. Inbred depression could be caused by concentrating of undesireable mutations that have a negative affect on fertility, growth and other traits of interest. It has been suggested that selecting individuals that have fewer loss of function mutations could provide better increases in growth, fertility and other traits than crossbreeding.
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larkota



Posts : 371
Join date : 2010-09-23
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Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:15 am

PatB wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
What is a beneficial one?

Polled?

Wagyu marbling

Double muscling

...
There are desirable and undesirable mutations for all traits  such as feed conversion, growth, fertility, sound structure, teat size, udder attachment and the list goes on.  The benefit of crossbreeding/use of outliers could be that there are less loss of function mutation in common between parents that result in increase fertility and growth and other traits.  Inbred depression could be caused by concentrating of undesireable mutations that have a negative affect on fertility, growth and other traits of interest.  It has been suggested that selecting individuals that have fewer loss of function mutations could provide better increases in growth, fertility and other traits than crossbreeding.  


could and suggested would seem to me to be a lot of guessing and terms con men use... not breeders. tired of breeding cattle on suggestions of what could be.

Larkota thinking just the facts please.
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EddieM



Posts : 895
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:29 am

PatB wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
What is a beneficial one?

Polled?

Wagyu marbling

Double muscling

...
There are desirable and undesirable mutations for all traits  such as feed conversion, growth, fertility, sound structure, teat size, udder attachment and the list goes on.  The benefit of crossbreeding/use of outliers could be that there are less loss of function mutation in common between parents that result in increase fertility and growth and other traits.  Inbred depression could be caused by concentrating of undesireable mutations that have a negative affect on fertility, growth and other traits of interest.  It has been suggested that selecting individuals that have fewer loss of function mutations could provide better increases in growth, fertility and other traits than crossbreeding.  
OK Pat, so I need some advice. Contemporary group of home raised ewe lambs are out with a ram now to lamb at 1 YO. A number of them are sire daughter mated so their pedigree reads 181/181/ewe#. Question on the 181/181 ewe lambs: Some are the largest, some are average sized and some are the smallest. None have needed to be wormed or have poor traits other than a variation in hair type that I can tolerate. Which ones will breed true and be the best ewes? Which ones should I cull and why?

Eddie, waiting with a red pen in hand to mark out ear tag #s
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:38 am

jonken wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
"Any animal showing superiority for any characteristic,carries with it its heretibility (as estimated) regardless of the performance of its parents"  Pinebank Website


Any animal, regardless of his own performance, carries with him the superiority of his parents.  His ability to pass on their superiority with more or less regularity lies in the breeding methodology used to produce him.

KP Teal hunter...
So KP .... green , blue , or cinnamon ?  Which is superior ?        
 Jon
That is something each of us has to decide. Most have decided the ability to pass on continuity and uniformity is a hindrance to their objective which is change. They may be right, but I'm not convinced, nor curious enough to pay for the answer. The cost of the sort has been accepted.

We still get outliers, I just don't look at them as a positive. I give credit to those who allowed that freedom of thought. Those who claimed and continue to insist on apparent superiority in the individual, no matter the current type or criteria, as parents never change that pursuit regardless of the results. There is freedom to make them pretty good when the definition doesn't change constantly.
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:41 am

EddieM wrote:
PatB wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
What is a beneficial one?

Polled?

Wagyu marbling

Double muscling

...
There are desirable and undesirable mutations for all traits  such as feed conversion, growth, fertility, sound structure, teat size, udder attachment and the list goes on.  The benefit of crossbreeding/use of outliers could be that there are less loss of function mutation in common between parents that result in increase fertility and growth and other traits.  Inbred depression could be caused by concentrating of undesireable mutations that have a negative affect on fertility, growth and other traits of interest.  It has been suggested that selecting individuals that have fewer loss of function mutations could provide better increases in growth, fertility and other traits than crossbreeding.  
OK Pat, so I need some advice.  Contemporary group of home raised ewe lambs are out with a ram now to lamb at 1 YO.  A number of them are sire daughter mated so their pedigree reads 181/181/ewe#.  Question on the 181/181 ewe lambs: Some are the largest, some are average sized and some are the smallest.  None have needed to be wormed or have poor traits other than a variation in hair type that I can tolerate.  Which ones will breed true and be the best ewes?  Which ones should I cull and why?

Eddie, waiting with a red pen in hand to mark out ear tag #s
When someone else does your selection, it is no longer your breeding program- is it?
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:43 am

PatB wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
What is a beneficial one?

Polled?

Wagyu marbling

Double muscling

...
There are desirable and undesirable mutations for all traits  such as feed conversion, growth, fertility, sound structure, teat size, udder attachment and the list goes on.  The benefit of crossbreeding/use of outliers could be that there are less loss of function mutation in common between parents that result in increase fertility and growth and other traits.  Inbred depression could be caused by concentrating of undesireable mutations that have a negative affect on fertility, growth and other traits of interest.  It has been suggested that selecting individuals that have fewer loss of function mutations could provide better increases in growth, fertility and other traits than crossbreeding.  

What is the function of seedstock?  Are  the current measures of function applicable? Does end product measurement of superiority equate to superiority as parents or grandparents of the most desirable end product?

http://www.wulfcattle.com/downloads/d100026.aspx?type=view

Just think about how much better these cattle would be if the Jersey breed would select for more size and Ribeye, or would that be detrimental to their purpose? Are these results good enough? What if we merged them so we could have the same results in one breed and track their pedigrees and performance?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co7JAwjqcYs
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:53 am

PatB wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
What is a beneficial one?

Polled?

Wagyu marbling

Double muscling

...
There are desirable and undesirable mutations for all traits  such as feed conversion, growth, fertility, sound structure, teat size, udder attachment and the list goes on.  The benefit of crossbreeding/use of outliers could be that there are less loss of function mutation in common between parents that result in increase fertility and growth and other traits.  Inbred depression could be caused by concentrating of undesireable mutations that have a negative affect on fertility, growth and other traits of interest.  It has been suggested that selecting individuals that have fewer loss of function mutations could provide better increases in growth, fertility and other traits than crossbreeding.  
What does it say about a breed that is so diverse and complete that you don't need other breeds to crossbreed. Wait, is it even a breed?
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:12 pm

EddieM wrote:
PatB wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
What is a beneficial one?

Polled?

Wagyu marbling

Double muscling

...
There are desirable and undesirable mutations for all traits  such as feed conversion, growth, fertility, sound structure, teat size, udder attachment and the list goes on.  The benefit of crossbreeding/use of outliers could be that there are less loss of function mutation in common between parents that result in increase fertility and growth and other traits.  Inbred depression could be caused by concentrating of undesireable mutations that have a negative affect on fertility, growth and other traits of interest.  It has been suggested that selecting individuals that have fewer loss of function mutations could provide better increases in growth, fertility and other traits than crossbreeding.  
OK Pat, so I need some advice.  Contemporary group of home raised ewe lambs are out with a ram now to lamb at 1 YO.  A number of them are sire daughter mated so their pedigree reads 181/181/ewe#.  Question on the 181/181 ewe lambs: Some are the largest, some are average sized and some are the smallest.  None have needed to be wormed or have poor traits other than a variation in hair type that I can tolerate.  Which ones will breed true and be the best ewes?  Which ones should I cull and why?

Eddie, waiting with a red pen in hand to mark out ear tag #s
What is your objective for the sheep? If looking for what an outlier excels in then they have the potential to provide the greatest change in that direction because they should be more homozygous for the genes affecting those traits than the average one. The outlier for traits of interest in a linebred population in theory should have a higher percentage of offspring that express the desired traits.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:25 pm

Kent Powell wrote:
EddieM wrote:
PatB wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
What is a beneficial one?

Polled?

Wagyu marbling

Double muscling

...
There are desirable and undesirable mutations for all traits  such as feed conversion, growth, fertility, sound structure, teat size, udder attachment and the list goes on.  The benefit of crossbreeding/use of outliers could be that there are less loss of function mutation in common between parents that result in increase fertility and growth and other traits.  Inbred depression could be caused by concentrating of undesireable mutations that have a negative affect on fertility, growth and other traits of interest.  It has been suggested that selecting individuals that have fewer loss of function mutations could provide better increases in growth, fertility and other traits than crossbreeding.  
OK Pat, so I need some advice.  Contemporary group of home raised ewe lambs are out with a ram now to lamb at 1 YO.  A number of them are sire daughter mated so their pedigree reads 181/181/ewe#.  Question on the 181/181 ewe lambs: Some are the largest, some are average sized and some are the smallest.  None have needed to be wormed or have poor traits other than a variation in hair type that I can tolerate.  Which ones will breed true and be the best ewes?  Which ones should I cull and why?

Eddie, waiting with a red pen in hand to mark out ear tag #s
When someone else does your selection, it is no longer your breeding program- is it?
Kent, no doubt about that. Briann and I were talking the other day about folks who have plenty of cattle and yet need to pay people to tell them how to breed them. It doesn't make much sense, does it? Why not see what you have, figure out what you want, breed for it and take the blame or the credit?

The reality of these sheep is that they will all be exposed, all have the chance to lamb in April 2014 and all prove themselves. Just because they vary in size does not mean that they can or will transmit the traits of ram #181. And actually I do not know what his traits were. I just had him as a ram bought in a flock purchase that was raised in an AL drought by some folks who specialized in dog training so he was a survivor of the "program" and the environment. He and 2 other rams have been used to build their lines to either prosper, fail or be absorbed into something else. They were used for "pedigree lines" and not based on the phenotype of each ram. To be honest, I did not admire 181 as special, 250 was wound up tighter in breeding than Dick's hatband with good height and nice daughters and 24 had pat of a pedigree that I greatly liked, was spectacular in terminal type if I could add just a tad of height yet he did not have the strong fixed internal parasite resistance I need. There has been a high cull rate on that trait. There were actually 4 paternal lines to start before the line linked with #30 showed the least parasite resistance that I have ever seen. It was not a great economic move but that whole line was totally culled except for the 324 ewe that left a few daughters here with resistance.

I get no joy out of the bigger ewe lambs and feel no shame over the smaller ones. They are the classroom and a business for me. But there is a definite purpose: linebred, purebred breeding stock. How will I know how they do? Not by the use within the line but by the outcrosses of the other lines already here. They are with an outcross ram.

Eddie, going long
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:52 pm

PatB wrote:

…. If looking for what an outlier excels in then they have the potential to provide the greatest change in that direction because they should be more homozygous for the genes affecting those traits than the average one. 
So we are back to the very mainstream thinking of seeking outliers, looking for the next "great one" to bring about change Rolling Eyes 
Isn't the truth that the outliers by definition can't be "more homozygous" for anything?
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:54 pm

EddieM wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
EddieM wrote:
PatB wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
What is a beneficial one?

Polled?

Wagyu marbling

Double muscling

...
There are desirable and undesirable mutations for all traits  such as feed conversion, growth, fertility, sound structure, teat size, udder attachment and the list goes on.  The benefit of crossbreeding/use of outliers could be that there are less loss of function mutation in common between parents that result in increase fertility and growth and other traits.  Inbred depression could be caused by concentrating of undesireable mutations that have a negative affect on fertility, growth and other traits of interest.  It has been suggested that selecting individuals that have fewer loss of function mutations could provide better increases in growth, fertility and other traits than crossbreeding.  
OK Pat, so I need some advice.  Contemporary group of home raised ewe lambs are out with a ram now to lamb at 1 YO.  A number of them are sire daughter mated so their pedigree reads 181/181/ewe#.  Question on the 181/181 ewe lambs: Some are the largest, some are average sized and some are the smallest.  None have needed to be wormed or have poor traits other than a variation in hair type that I can tolerate.  Which ones will breed true and be the best ewes?  Which ones should I cull and why?

Eddie, waiting with a red pen in hand to mark out ear tag #s
When someone else does your selection, it is no longer your breeding program- is it?
Kent, no doubt about that.  Briann and I were talking the other day about folks who have plenty of cattle and yet need to pay people to tell them how to breed them.  It doesn't make much sense, does it?  Why not see what you have, figure out what you want, breed for it and take the blame or the credit?

The reality of these sheep is that they will all be exposed, all have the chance to lamb in April 2014 and all prove themselves.  Just because they vary in size does not mean that they can or will transmit the traits of ram #181.  And actually I do not know what his traits were.  I just had him as a ram bought in a flock purchase that was raised in an AL drought by some folks who specialized in dog training so he was a survivor of the "program" and the environment.  He and 2 other rams have been used to build their lines to either prosper, fail or be absorbed into something else.  They were used for "pedigree lines" and not based on the phenotype of each ram.  To be honest, I did not admire 181 as special, 250 was wound up tighter in breeding than Dick's hatband with good height and nice daughters and 24 had pat of a pedigree that I greatly liked, was spectacular in terminal type if I could add just a tad of height yet he did not have the strong fixed internal parasite resistance I need.  There has been a high cull rate on that trait.  There were actually 4 paternal lines to start before the line linked with #30 showed the least parasite resistance that I have ever seen.  It was not a great economic move but that whole line was totally culled except for the 324 ewe that left a few daughters here with resistance.

I get no joy out of the bigger ewe lambs and feel no shame over the smaller ones.  They are the classroom and a business for me.  But there is a definite purpose: linebred, purebred breeding stock.  How will I know how they do?  Not by the use within the line but by the outcrosses of the other lines already here.  They are with an outcross ram.

Eddie, going long
The selection for the parasite resistance/tolerance mutation in your flock is proof that you can increase the rate of occurance of a mutation. In time genomic profiling will assist breeders to idenity genetic mutations and mate accordingly to produce a more consistent progeny and improve other traits of economic importance.
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outsidethebox



Posts : 88
Join date : 2010-11-17
Age : 64
Location : Goessel, Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:45 pm


"The selection for the parasite resistance/tolerance mutation in your flock is proof that you can increase the rate of occurance of a mutation. In time genomic profiling will assist breeders to idenity genetic mutations and mate accordingly to produce a more consistent progeny and improve other traits of economic importance."

Pat, good luck with this. Do you really believe this is a viable option for beef production? And how is the/your continued selection for outliers contributing to the improvement in beef production-both now and in this/your future methodology?

(Eddie) I have a hair sheep project in the works. I have no idea what their pedigrees are-bought them off of Criagslist out of Oklahoma. I am allowing them to self select at this time relative to no nutritional supplementation besides our native grasses and hay for the winter. They are just beginning to lamb their third set of lambs. I have not wormed nor trimmed feet nor assisted in birthing.

I do have 6 registered Dorper ewes that my FIL dropped off here...they are pathetic relative to the Oklahoma ewes.
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Kent Powell



Posts : 606
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:53 pm

PatB wrote:
[The selection for the parasite resistance/tolerance mutation in your flock is proof that you can increase the rate of occurance of a mutation.  In time genomic profiling will assist breeders to idenity  genetic mutations and mate accordingly to produce a more consistent progeny and improve other traits of economic importance.
Is it really proof of a mutation? I would hazard a guess that resistance was higher in the past and improvements in management supplementing weakness' which would have been culled or died under the management and health maintenance capabilities, limitations and traditions of the past.( Ivomec was sold and accepted as a breakthrough even though a flush of lush green grass was found to have very similar results to the treated animals for most worms. Does it work, sure- is it necessary, ??) Perhaps the mutation is the lack of resistance spread through the population. Perhaps animals today are being unknowingly selected for survivability under what would have to be considered heavy medication, vaccination, etc. What happens when you remove that?

I don't think anyone would argue the ability to increase the rate of occurance of any gene. Is that the argument?

I keep hearing about the promise of genetic profiling. I have yet to see the breakthrough. If it is the identification of the 118 $B from the 43 $B from full sibs, fine. Is that the whole story?

Is the identification of genetic traits bred into populations through the use of traditional techniques which made the breeds really a breakthrough?

The limiting factor of breakthroughs is that they will eliminate the necessity of purchasing the product- if they really work. I don't see that being allowed. (remember open AI was fought because some thought it would flood the market with great bulls. Perhaps it did- but why are the great ones still considered rare?) Technology will fight to remain necessary. That is why traits are scaled on the basis of the percentage ranking of the current population. No longer is the official line - there is no good or bad EPD- the official position is now the highest percentage ranking is best. There is no place for the middle. This is without regard to what the cattle actually do or how they perform and function. If your rate of change does not remain at the speed of the rate of change of the population, you are put under the assumption you are falling behind. The technology is simply a supplement and an additional avenue of purchased third party verification of what you are producing. More change, when few know what that really means.

Yes, I have used it. I may continue. It told me that they were in the middle. I paid for third party verification of what I thought I had. Actual results from the country don't tend to favor the top 1%- for whatever reason. Does it really matter why? Do we have to reinvent the wheel every time someone thinks they have a tool which will allow them to break the genetic rules.

It was probably 20 years ago that I read Larry's observation of the higher highs and lower lows in EPD's. I did try to get a an answer as to why with the higher highs touted as improvement come with dramatically lower lows which are ignored. It seems some think that is proof standing still is sliding down a hill. That is the only response. Keep stretching the curve while calling them curvebenders. Keep screwing them up, selling it as improvement. I'm going out to see if mine are still sliding backwards.
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PostSubject: Re: Pine bank november 13 newsletter   

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