Keeney`s Corner

A current and reflective discussion of cattle breeding from outside the registered mainstream
 
HomeUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 8 ... 14  Next
AuthorMessage
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:36 pm

Some how Tom I doubt they are worried about good FEET
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:04 am

spending some money on this ad; hoping it`s for the greater good...print advertising costs prevent greater explanation of some subtle sentence meanings that are certainly open for discussion here...

Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:31 am

I was due some critique in the ad above...nothing like self-critique I suppose; judge it accordingly...

While some phenotypic differences will always exist in
a breeding line, the genotype is such that no recognizable difference in breeding
value exists in our bulls.

rest assured that the last
bull chosen in a pen has the same potential breeding value

critique...the key word is recognizable
...I feel assured there will be differences in breeding value; but I am just as assured I cannot ascertain which individuals will be superior for my goals; let alone your goals...



the only thing a
registered breeder could accomplish with our cattle is dilute any prepotency

critique...the key word is any...does any prepotency even exist? We have beat around forever here for an agreeable measure of prepotency; or even of potential prepotency; with nothing agreed upon...the most possible terminology  then; if any prepotency exists; it likely will be diluted...
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Wed Dec 25, 2013 8:07 pm

I`ve have a couple of B bulls created by fire and ice mating in the spring sale so my livelihood is not particularly dependent on their acceptance...I`ve moved ole {no kin to Ole Olson}   Bgood over here from Tru -line so as to post comments on him and progeny from time to time ; much as I did MVCatt`s Nubbin bull...
For me, B is for Between...could be for Balance; might even be more accurate to stand for Bastard... Very Happy 

K Bgood
A poor man`s terminal answer to GAR

$1500 versus $150,000



below the number one $B {B for beef; not bastard; though competiveness takes some there} bull in the Angus "breed"



but I`ve yet to see Bastard used in paid advertising, but I see Balance used regularly; most oft by registered breeders

What is Balance...as a breeding destination ? A little bit of everything in the "between" proportions? Balance seems to me to be the most precarious of objectives to reproduce...


 Question 

so I suggest to you that a bull proven to be in the middle for quantitative characteristics {perfect heterogeneous middle being AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIi etc } is subject to go out "out of balance" in either direction in any quantitative trait to the same degree of variation whether his parentage is balance to balance or fire and ice mating...UNLESS CLOSE BREEDING has been employed creating {perfection again...AAbbCCddEEffGGhhII etc...} so that random segregation always gives you the same ...I suppose balance to balance within a breed creates miniscule homozygosity for quantative traits...but a $150,000 worth? I don`t think so...$15,000 worth? nope...
so this is not an argument AGAINST close breeding; it is an argument FOR close breeding if you wish to lessen variation in traits...how much is possible? that too becomes a monetary question...is the degree of greater consistency worth the cost of inbreeding effect? I`m guessing terminal seedstock speaking; NO...For what terminal product variation is created that you can`t sell  Question
pictures come "next year"...birth weight variation will be a significant predictor in my opinion...stay tuned... Smile
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Wed Dec 25, 2013 8:16 pm

thanks Mark for the loyal business and more so for the better times..looks like we go back a few years  Smile 

Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Mark Day



Posts : 243
Join date : 2010-09-24
Age : 51
Location : Russellville, Ohio

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Wed Dec 25, 2013 8:42 pm

Mike,
Thinking balance could also mean lack of specificity to a particular trait or function. If your not an A type or a terminal C then your a middle of the road generalist which is not necessarily a bad thing. It helps to keep the law of specificity in mind even in cattle breeding.
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:44 pm

yelp Mark...maternal specificity works for me; I can`t hardly tolerate the more terminal type Charolais heifers I get; at least the eye for girls seems everlasting  Smile  I think C will end up being pretty useful females when crossed with A because of the C modified, selection direction... already proved that...
nice call this afternoon from a new person who had read my Cow Country ads for years...wants to come over; has it been my ads changing him  Question nope, you`re just there when the commercial producer changes himself  Smile
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:29 am

I thought maybe it best not to rain on Larry`s parade, so I moved the good ship over here...



now let it rain; she gets home tonight  Very Happy 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWfY9GRe7SI
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
alexfarms



Posts : 10
Join date : 2013-08-21
Age : 59
Location : Gypsum, KS

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:19 pm

MKeeney wrote:
thanks Mark for the loyal business and more so for the better times..looks like we go back a few years  Smile 


Mike,

Could you give me some history on the "Shoshone" name? I have run across it in Herefords in some King Domino descendants produced by Alan Siggins at Cody, WY.

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=3E3F292A&2=2434&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C232623582326

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=3E3F292A&2=2434&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5B5A5A5924262D&9=515C5F58

John Alexander
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:21 pm

alexfarms wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
thanks Mark for the loyal business and more so for the better times..looks like we go back a few years  Smile 


Mike,

Could you give me some history on the "Shoshone" name?  I have run across it in Herefords in some King Domino descendants produced by Alan Siggins at Cody, WY.

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=3E3F292A&2=2434&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C232623582326

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=3E3F292A&2=2434&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5B5A5A5924262D&9=515C5F58

John Alexander

Hello John, good seeing your name here...Larry can explain better, but I`m sure the name comes from the Shoshone River...the River name from the Indian Tribe??? I don`t know...and seeing these Herefords are from Cody; I`m guess the same thing...bit I`m more interested in this bull below; others, and your linebreeding experiences... please share here, or start your own topic...Welcome Exclamation

http://www.kansashereford.org/s/MemberPopup.cfm?PID=118-4



that 42% IBC caught my eye immediately; I`ve already had a round with Danny Miller over the Hereford Association having their IBC values way too high...your thoughts?

http://www.kansashereford.org/s/MemberDirectory.cfm?MID=118#






Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:33 pm

Confession is good for the soul; because it first requires some humility ...so like a crippled pup, MM, a regular customer,  wants to come look at bulls first of the week...seems he slipped off down to TN, and bought himself a big hoss of a $3300 Sitz Tradition son ...8 calves into the calving season, 5 of the biggest birthweights he`s ever seen, best cow paralyzed, and 3 of the scrawniest little farts he has ever had on the place; 20 cows to go; the $3300 bull sold at the Somerset yards today ...isolated incident? maybe, but there must be a reason Angus bull buyers are still looking for 0 bw epd, because any more in the mainstream must be too much  Question 

steady as she goes...

Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
MVCatt



Posts : 141
Join date : 2010-09-24
Age : 42
Location : SW Penn

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:00 pm

You need those scrawny little farts to get your BW average down...it's the only way to achieve "Curve Bender" status Very Happy.
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:53 pm

Travis sends me these pics along with the note that the Angus bulls selling at Cookeville yesterday averaged $3000-3500 yesterday; so here I sit on paupers row... Sad Smile 

this bull never cost $2000 and he seems ok to me



Travis continues to carve out a retirement community exclusively for him and Shirley and family...glad John, Lynn, Linda and I got to visit...



grass...it does a body good  Smile 



MM made it over today and for a mere $2100 cash bought one of last years bulls that bred heifers...this consistent renewal things sure works good for my customers; if nothing is too rare and irreplaceable for me; how can I make it be expensive to a customer???   oh well, cash makes golf tax-deductible  cheers
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Bob H



Posts : 371
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:25 am

Great pictures and look like great cattle !!!!! About that green grass can I buy that and have it shipped to the great Northwest ASAP ?

Bob H
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:59 am

Bob H wrote:
Great pictures and look like great cattle !!!!! About that green grass can I buy that and have it shipped to the great  Northwest  ASAP ?

Bob H

I`m glad Travis pics are dated; the beauty of the South ...and it`s most unfairly despised grass...fescue...
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:57 pm

seems I`ve received a quibble by private email in regard to the following post that has caused me to re-think it, so I move it here since I am entirely responsible for the content and the application thereof...

quote
LL SAID

The absolutely only reason the industry thinks a crossbred beef cow is better is that we don't know how to create a more profitable purebred cow that could be absolutely more efficient than any non-renewable crossbred cow ever could hope to be, in fact we don't even know how to reduce the problems of any cow, but we're very good at increasing them.   ShockedVery Happy



mike said

and I see it already has wallhanger status; and since I`m about to disagee; I may only be hanging from a tree  Smile

I own two inbred {aaa22%ibc} sons of the above cow; but identical twins; so just one phenotype expression; one genotype being progeny evaluated... I remember one other non-descript son I castrated by accident; though the unintended consequences were probably beneficial in preventing another trial and likely costly error on my part...
Pete and Repete do not uphold the phenotypic expression/performance/production {however you define it} of this cow...will they uphold it when outcrossed? that is the current trial and error...upholding commercially profitable production in an isolated population is a problem imo...you can maintain or even concentrate the genotype, but a commercial producer doesn`t sell genotype; he sells phenotype ...

[b]so on 1-7 after the quip Mike says...[/b]

perhaps the key words in Larry`s statement are don't know how ...I readily confess I don`t know how to create a more commercially profitable , efficient, renewable purebred cow than is a crossbred cow...
so the operational and confessional words here must be don't know how ...for a moment that troubled me, but then I thought if this cow was commonplace, we wouldn`t pay her picture a second notice, eh?  Smile and if she was commonplace, she or her progeny wouldn`t be sought after or expensive to buy, would they, or notably expensive to raise either if "efficient"... ?
now Pete and Re-pete will recreate her type; type is a qualitative trait in my vocabulary; and the pete`s are pre-potent for type; not only a type to type mating, but  close bred by ancestry...but uphold the dam`s size and production? if they reproduce the ancestral genotype, perhaps...if the petes reproduce their phenotype, it will more closely resemble a Jersey cross...I don`t necessarily call that a disappointment, nor unexpected, or unprofitable commercially when I mate them to Charolais bulls...but if renewing the dam working phenotype AND production level was the absolute objective, I don`t think it will happen...but if because "I don`t know how", then it`s my fault, not the cattle`s , but it seems that leaves me  in the company of plenty of other "don't know how`s and don't know hows enjoy company  Smile 
 Of course, as Larry has pointed out, even by posting less flamboyant pictures, the special picture was a moment in time...creating something of a paper ship that will float on the sea of perception is reality as long as traditional marketing of rarity prevails...
 All part of the reasons I`m not a Tru-line breeder, but an A B C breeder...emphasis on the A...while really close breeding projects are well underway here, beyond climbing mountains,  their primary use would be to energize {heterozyse } the Model A cow with known components if regression began to lower acceptable commercial levels of production...the Model A is more production stock than parent stock and will remain so...if regression begins to bring failure , I`ll buy a bull from Briann, Tom, Kent...hell, even Sue, to maintain function and production in the Model A cow... ...

Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:18 am

I get emails worth sharing as well...

Mike,
The differences I see in these writings and the individuals behind them is a willingness to think and observe, an eye on marketing, direct and realistic involvement in their operation, strength to stand their ground and a strong work ethic. It is a great combination and these folks reaffirm that cattle and sheep are not about a weekend getaway or a tax diversion for 7 years. It is a shame that this cannot be taught or learned in a school.

Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
EddieM



Posts : 895
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:39 am

MK wrote:
I own two inbred {aaa22%ibc} sons of the above cow; but identical twins; so just one phenotype expression; one genotype being progeny evaluated...

Pete and Repete do not uphold the phenotypic expression/performance/production {however you define it} of this cow...will they uphold it when outcrossed? that is the current trial and error...upholding commercially profitable production in an isolated population is a problem imo...you can maintain or even concentrate the genotype, but a commercial producer doesn`t sell genotype
But did they inherit 22% from the cow? Is 22% on the average enough to transfer the desired phenotype? Is it enough to transfer the genotype?

MK wrote:
I remember one other non-descript son I castrated by accident; though the unintended consequences were probably beneficial in preventing another trial and likely costly error on my part...
Or could have been the next EXT or even a greater bull! What a Face 

I think that the greatest concern of profitability of a purebred cow versus a crossbred cow is longevity if you do not worship weaning weights but look on down the road at the post weaning period. Just an opinion.
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:37 pm

EddieM wrote:
MK wrote:
I own two inbred {aaa22%ibc} sons of the above cow; but identical twins; so just one phenotype expression; one genotype being progeny evaluated...

Pete and Repete do not uphold the phenotypic expression/performance/production {however you define it} of this cow...will they uphold it when outcrossed? that is the current trial and error...upholding commercially profitable production in an isolated population is a problem imo...you can maintain or even concentrate the genotype, but a commercial producer doesn`t sell genotype
But did they inherit 22% from the cow?  Is 22% on the average enough to transfer the desired phenotype?  Is it enough to transfer the genotype?

MK wrote:
I remember one other non-descript son I castrated by accident; though the unintended consequences were probably beneficial in preventing another trial and likely costly error on my part...
Or could have been the next EXT or even a greater bull! What a Face 

I think that the greatest concern of profitability of a purebred cow versus a crossbred cow is longevity if you do not worship weaning weights but look on down the road at the post weaning period.  Just an opinion.

But did they inherit 22% from the cow? Is 22% on the average enough to transfer the desired phenotype? Is it enough to transfer the genotype?



Eddie, until Pat gets this genome testing cheaper, say $3; I`m going to be in the dark on those questions...right now, my berst evaluation is the weaned heifer calves...I don`t see anything different, or especially bad enough, to start trying to figure out "whose your daddy"?  Smile 

Or could have been the next EXT or even a greater bull! What a Face

EXT couldn`t, or at least didn`t, reproduce himself...and remember, the gene pool that created EXT is now using a bull I discarded  Shocked It gets back to what is the benefit versus the cost of taking the risk...and to Bullock saying "I`ll let your posters debate how much variation is too much...while we also are being mindful of Rowling and the benefits of failure  Smile 

Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Bob H



Posts : 371
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:26 am

What we have experienced is not scientific but have not used anything else for the last 16 years and do not see enough problems to change. We always selected Larry's yellow tagged bulls. What I think is that using multiple sires on larger groups of cattle have allowed us to move on. I think that people get hung up on a bull and start to create problems. Why not put 3 bulls with 30 cows and see what transpires I think that natural selection will surprise you of the out come.

About commercial cattleman not selling genotype we have to keep them as cows so they are the most important decision that we make.

A commercial cattle ranch is just a forage factory that use's Bovine to harvest their product. To have a harvest machine (cow) that is efficient and reproduces herself is a god send.

I have to tell this tale as it is a great story about human nature. Some years ago a fellow came to me with 2 problems his cows would not breed back well and he could not sell his calves for any where near the top of the market in our area. So I took him with me to Larry's and he purchased some bulls. The f1 calves were better, and things started to improve on the breed back. In a few years the calves started to be what they were so he started to believe what Larry told him about using fire and ice to sell and he really started to become more profitable. Flash forward to a conversation that I had a few days ago with him. He said that he went and bought different bulls for his maternal because he thought that his cows were getting to frail. This is the data that he shared with me that just makes my head swim, last year he had just Larry's genetics and White bulls for the terminal. 365 cows had 6 open cows. The march born steer calves had 2 loads of 800lb 9 month olds, the balance weigh over 700lbs but he was going to change because they where to frail. But someone had told him about this having to high of IBC was bad so he changed.

The reason that I had called him was to buy the heifers to make cows out of because of the results we are getting back out of the Akaushi cross on Shoshone at the kill floor looks good. We will know allot more soon about this. They have been about 60% prime yield grade 1,2, and 3's and all cattle have been choice with no 4's. The average days on feed have been 110 for these. They want to feed the rest longer so we will see soon. The only cattle that they have harvested have been heifers.


This makes me wonder when good enough is good enough.
Bob H

Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:39 am


"You can't just ask customers what they want and then try to give that to them. By the time you get it built, they'll want something new."

- Steve Jobs, late CEO of Apple
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
EddieM



Posts : 895
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:04 am

MKeeney wrote:

"You can't just ask customers what they want and then try to give that to them. By the time you get it built, they'll want something new."

- Steve Jobs, late CEO of Apple

Yet he and the company made millions on the replacements of the latest new, now suddenly old, with the anticipated "better new". People camping on sidewalks, fighting for the first of the many hundreds of thousands or millions of identical devices to be made, slowly separating themselves from all reality to focus on a screen and type and talk to the unseen people who are not around them.

What Apple and the other companies have to do with new products is to "out-new" their competition while training consumers to seek a new obsession by discarding their last obsession. Same for semen catalogs, annual sales, new herd sires. Same patterns of behavior: different people: different carrots to chase.

Talk about rats in a maze.

Eddie, still the owner of a couple of dial phones
Back to top Go down
Tom D
Admin


Posts : 535
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 38
Location : Michigan

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:57 am

EddieM wrote:
slowly separating themselves from all reality to focus on a screen and type and talk to the unseen people who are not around them.
    Very Happy
Back to top Go down
tc



Posts : 76
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 67
Location : Moss,Tn

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:33 pm

He will be 5 years old in Feb.Mike I think he just keeps getting better with age. Although I may try to make it up in Feb to take a look at your bulls.
We enjoyed the visit this summer also.





MKeeney wrote:
Travis sends me these pics along with the note that the Angus bulls selling at Cookeville yesterday averaged $3000-3500 yesterday; so here I sit on paupers

row... Sad Smile 

this bull never cost $2000 and he seems ok to me



Travis continues to carve out a retirement community exclusively for him and Shirley and family...glad John, Lynn, Linda and I got to visit...



grass...it does a body good  Smile 



MM made it over today and for a mere $2100 cash bought one of last years bulls that bred heifers...this consistent renewal things sure works good for my customers; if nothing is too rare and irreplaceable for me; how can I make it be expensive to a customer???   oh well, cash makes golf tax-deductible  cheers
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:45 pm

desperately seeking a portrait of Pete



3 years old now breeding 15 month old heifers...

ahhh, there he raised his head; he`s more often heard than seen...



I`ll start looking closely to see if I can blame Pete progeny for any scrawnies  in the 110 2013 heifers of which a large sampling is pictured...no heifers have been sorted off; and I haven`t noticed any that need to be...

Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   

Back to top Go down
 
2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 3 of 14Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 8 ... 14  Next
 Similar topics
-
» 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale
» 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale
» Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013
» Keeney Angus April 7 Bull and Heifer Sale
» 2015 Keeney Angus Bull Sale

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Keeney`s Corner :: Advertise :: For Sale-
Jump to: