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 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale

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df



Posts : 549
Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:41 pm

RobertMac wrote:
Y'all know I'm an ignorant MISSISSIPPI STATE redneck, but I don't waste, I mean take the time, to keep up with "modern technology", but what is tandem selection, independent culling levels and selection indexes? Ok, I know selection indexes are EPDs and such, but, obviously I need educating.



Tandem selection is a "one and you are done" selection. Choose one criteria; those that beat it are chosen. The losers are culled. Once the herd achieves this level, a second trait is chosen. The focus is on the second trait until it is reached. Of course, the first trait could actually decrease while you are selecting for the second trait, so is not readily seen in selection as far as I know.

Independent culling levels is "you passed the first hurdle but there are more ahead". Example; all with 450 lb WW. can stay. Then all those with 900 lb YW can stay. And so on if you desire. Later you can move the bar to 460 lb. WW and 925 lb. YW.

Selection index is assigning a weighting to each trait of importance, then determining which animals stay at the end of the test. These traits are typically on objective data and not subjective observations (if analyzing a large dataset), although that is certainly not the way it is used in the real world. A bull may jump through all the hoops but lack some physical quality that is important to the owner, and then is not chosen to be the next herdsire.

Most producers use a combination of independent culling levels and selection index. The selection index may or may not have economics attached to it in a formal manner. examples of an economic selection index is the $BEEF index at the Angus Assoc.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:46 pm

MKeeney wrote:
df asked
How many traits do you select and do you use tandem selection, independent culling levels or selection indexes? Or a combination?


none of the above; your advanced terminology is only useful to make the simple complicated; commonplace in the registered con game...

remember how you learned to read using pictures; here`s a cattle breeding primer...
this is a cow; female; therefore, a maternal, model A prospect

culled @ weaning by "performance selection"
culled @ yearling by "performance selection"
bred @ 15 months; by "functional selection"
culled @ 18 months by  "performance selection"



calved unassisted @ 24 months by "functional selection"
selected for phenotype by "breeding experience for functional type"


So you use primarily independent culling levels except on the selection for phenotype, which I would characterize as a selection index.

I only use the "big words" to avoid writing a paragraph. Very Happy

But your way is better!
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:05 am

well, I guess Tom Tom thinks you can`t get enough terminal in a terminal bull...maybe that is because breeders keep trying to put some maternal in ?

Ranchers can make more money on their calves if they strive for a three-dimensional cow-calf herd. That's what Tom Brink, founder and owner of Brink Consulting and Trading in Brighton, Col., told about 180 farmers and ranchers attending the first State of Beef conference in North Platte recently.

The first dimension is one of the most important, he said. "You need to have a functional cow," said Brink. But growers should aspire for more. "To have a two-dimensional herd, you want functional cows that are adapted females with good reproduction rates, reasonable feed costs, longevity and that produce calves that have marketability for feeders," he explained. "You want those calves to perform above average in the feedyard, and you will enjoy better demand for your calves and better sales prices."

A three-dimensional herd is even more profitable. "You want to have the ability to create value that includes calves that produce superior carcasses" because 70% of fed cattle produced today are sold under a carcass-merit payment system, he said. "That's why carcass value makes this list," Brink said. "Following these dimensions will allow you to maximize profit potential in all market conditions. Everybody in the system wins, because you are producing value at the ranch level and adding value at the feeder and packer level too."

He told producers that they need to prepare their calves as best they can to go into a challenging environment. Feeders and packers value traits like calves that are extremely healthy and can withstand less than desirable weather conditions that always come along, he noted. "Calves need to grow fast and put on weight efficiently," he said. "And they need to grade." Cow-calf producers that have calves that excel at these traits will have feeders lined up to purchase their calves, said Brink.

For every characteristic you add to a breeding program your progress goes down by square roots
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:03 pm

1- Cull bad dispositions (no exception)

2- Cull animals that need extra care/treatment (very rare exceptions)

3- Cull females 2 yr. and older that fail to calve in 65 days (rare exceptions, mainly first calf heifers)

4- Cull obvious bottom end calves and the cows that produce them

Replacements- I have a small herd, so I can give all heifers that don't fit in #4 a chance to calve at 2 yr. old.

Herdsires come from proven functional cows.

What's the "big word" for what I do?
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:55 pm

Stockmanship?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:14 pm

RobertMac wrote:
1- Cull bad dispositions (no exception)

2- Cull animals that need extra care/treatment (very rare exceptions)

3- Cull females 2 yr. and older that fail to calve in 65 days (rare exceptions, mainly first calf heifers)

4- Cull obvious bottom end calves and the cows that produce them

Replacements- I have a small herd, so I can give all heifers that don't fit in #4 a chance to calve at 2 yr. old.  

Herdsires come from proven functional cows.

What's the "big word" for what I do?

10 bulls are eligible to be retained as herd sires...you need only one...what do you select for?
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:17 pm

Some people seem to get along just fine with whatever is leftover in the bullpen when it comes to picking herd sires. Very Happy
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:52 pm

RobertMac wrote:
1- Cull bad dispositions (no exception)

2- Cull animals that need extra care/treatment (very rare exceptions)

3- Cull females 2 yr. and older that fail to calve in 65 days (rare exceptions, mainly first calf heifers)

4- Cull obvious bottom end calves and the cows that produce them

Replacements- I have a small herd, so I can give all heifers that don't fit in #4 a chance to calve at 2 yr. old.  

Herdsires come from proven functional cows.

What's the "big word" for what I do?


With the exception of your herdsire selection item I'd say the big word was "management". Aren't these just basic management tools a producer uses to "tidy up" or improve the efficiency/profitability of his herd even if it is just a commercial herd? If you consider it genetic selection are you sure you aren't just treating the symptom rather than the cause? Are you sure that daughters kept off cows failing in the first 4 categories will inherit the same characteristics? If they are all heritable conditions and you cull for them haven't you run out of things to cull?
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:09 am

A culling process like that should get to the point where you cease to have to cull but can decide to keep ........... if you get my drift - consistent culling of the female line (and the males which do not tick their respective / different boxes) should then get a herd to a point where the replacement animals are the one's you want to keep .................... not the one's that you have to keep because others did not escape the culling pencil.

In all of this is the understanding that what is important to one breeder is not necessarily as important to another but that in itself is the beauty of breeding.  The art of breeding is the ability to know what you want in an animal (and for a seedstock breeder being fortunate enough to be able to breed what other people are looking for too) and making a herd of very similar animals that all have those desired traits in common and are able to consistently replace themselves with animals displaying the same traits.  Just my two cents worth.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:33 am

I suppose my sale page is as good a place as any for the most ignorant statement I read of the day...

Carcass traits are of low heritability. To move that you need to stack them for many generation (you need to brush up on genetics).


We`ve been needing a red flag emoticon for registered con alert



anyone think the above bull won`t sire rib-eye? need data? really?

preg checked the last group of 52 3 yr olds yesterday...50 bred; vet tells me everyone`s preg rate is pretty good this year; grass and cooler weather I suspect; so my preg rate could be worse next year...in other words, environment is greater influence than genetics  Question  Question I guess I could have used that $1400/ton mineral Nichols was promoting several years ago to get another 1% bred...I prefer Dido`s modified advice "where`s the cents in that"?

most will calve to



and he won`t sire any of these  types...guaranteed  cheers thank you Briann  cheers

Larry`s poster girl for infertility...


hmmmm...contradiction to fertility/heritability relationship? a little I guess...
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:09 am

Mike,
I guess the registered guy does not know that stacked generations of carcass traits is called a breed and that the breed is called something besides Angus. Your example looks just fine.

A breeder can never the max of desirable traits in one breed or animal. All they can do is breed for an optimum balance that fits their environment and economical purposes.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:12 am

big Al doesn`t even know the definition of

Heritability

Heritability is the proportion of observed differences on a trait among individuals of a population that are due to genetic differences.



by Al`s definition, how you feed is more important than what type cattle you feed...try making a Pied marble or a Jersey have Ribeye....

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larkota



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Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:36 am

[quote="MKeeney"]
most will calve to



[quote]

hell 977 always liked having his picture took. made a great breeding (marketing) mistake last spring selling him back to Mike, should have just rented or loaned him.
not many bulls in my life have left an impression like 977. absolutely nothing great about him, just adequate. the females he left here is a main reason I'm still in the cattle business, cant wait... Beauigan son's X 977 daughters. Mike remind Joe next fall he gets his pick, free delivery, only if Joe comes and see what he has done for me.

Larkota owing Mike and Joe oh so much.



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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:04 am

Joe is a tru-giver; therefore, he never feels owed...

a few futuristic pics for Kent of the wonderful world of fescue...

weaned heifer feed




be sure and let the Johnson grass freeze dry



18 and bred early for next spring calving...



a little wire to ration it out



thin; just too much frame  farao



up close and personal



should be enough to get to Feb 1...quality excellent; no need for supplement

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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:05 pm

MKeeney wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
1- Cull bad dispositions (no exception)

2- Cull animals that need extra care/treatment (very rare exceptions)

3- Cull females 2 yr. and older that fail to calve in 65 days (rare exceptions, mainly first calf heifers)

4- Cull obvious bottom end calves and the cows that produce them

Replacements- I have a small herd, so I can give all heifers that don't fit in #4 a chance to calve at 2 yr. old.  

Herdsires come from proven functional cows.

What's the "big word" for what I do?

10 bulls are eligible to be retained as herd sires...you need only one...what do you select for?

If I have 10 bulls that meet all my criteria to be eligible, the one closest to the gate should work as good as any of the others. But, I'd rather use multisire breeding.
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:39 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
1- Cull bad dispositions (no exception)

2- Cull animals that need extra care/treatment (very rare exceptions)

3- Cull females 2 yr. and older that fail to calve in 65 days (rare exceptions, mainly first calf heifers)

4- Cull obvious bottom end calves and the cows that produce them

Replacements- I have a small herd, so I can give all heifers that don't fit in #4 a chance to calve at 2 yr. old.  

Herdsires come from proven functional cows.

What's the "big word" for what I do?


With the exception of your herdsire selection item I'd say the big word was "management". Aren't these just basic management tools a producer uses to "tidy up" or improve the efficiency/profitability of his herd even if it is just a commercial herd? If you consider it genetic selection are you sure you aren't just treating the symptom rather than the cause? Are you sure that daughters kept off cows failing in the first 4 categories will inherit the same characteristics? If they are all heritable conditions and you cull for them haven't you run out of things to cull?

Efficiency should be the first goal of any herd, commercial or seedstock. If a seedstock producer does more to maintain efficiency than what a commercial producer can afford to do, will those seedstock genetics work in a commercial herd? The registered cattle I bought from such programs did not in my environment.

The endocrine system controls function. The nervous system controls the endocrine system. Both are a function of genetics. If you select for functional cattle, aren't you selecting for functional genetics? Environment plays a major factor, so I try to keep my environment as simple as possible. I haven't run out of cattle to cull.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:02 am

RobertMac wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
1- Cull bad dispositions (no exception)

2- Cull animals that need extra care/treatment (very rare exceptions)

3- Cull females 2 yr. and older that fail to calve in 65 days (rare exceptions, mainly first calf heifers)

4- Cull obvious bottom end calves and the cows that produce them

Replacements- I have a small herd, so I can give all heifers that don't fit in #4 a chance to calve at 2 yr. old.  

Herdsires come from proven functional cows.

What's the "big word" for what I do?


With the exception of your herdsire selection item I'd say the big word was "management". Aren't these just basic management tools a producer uses to "tidy up" or improve the efficiency/profitability of his herd even if it is just a commercial herd? If you consider it genetic selection are you sure you aren't just treating the symptom rather than the cause? Are you sure that daughters kept off cows failing in the first 4 categories will inherit the same characteristics? If they are all heritable conditions and you cull for them haven't you run out of things to cull?

Efficiency should be the first goal of any herd, commercial or seedstock. If a seedstock producer does more to maintain efficiency than what a commercial producer can afford to do, will those seedstock genetics work in a commercial herd? The registered cattle I bought from such programs did not in my environment.

The endocrine system controls function. The nervous system controls the endocrine system. Both are a function of genetics. If you select for functional cattle, aren't you selecting for functional genetics? Environment plays a major factor, so I try to keep my environment as simple as possible. I haven't run out of cattle to cull.

sheep guy wrote:
We are not trying to breed sheep for the highest output. We're trying to breed for the highest output for the lowest input.
Here is a sure way to have plenty of animals to cull: try to maximize output. If you start with sound animals with all of the good nerves and good hormones and are still culling then you are still trying to get more out of them than they can produce in your environment/management.
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:44 am

Can you fix a cull as fast as you can create one?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:18 am

Mark Day wrote:
Can you fix a cull as fast as you can create one?

good question...reminds me of talking with Rik last night; particularly about the terminators...their performance is a given; only the problems are yet to be revealed; and are really the only concern left...but most everyone measures performance; selects for performance; and sells performance though problems/culls are most costly...
in the performance con game, half are culls if selected for one trait...if selected for 4 traits...2x2x2x2=16% above the 100 ratio in all 4 traits...no wonder single trait selection becomes a norm...
but your question remains un-answered Mark...

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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:43 pm

Mark Day wrote:
Can you fix a cull as fast as you can create one?

Generalities:
One basic cure requires more feed.
The other basic cure requires different genetics.
Pick one to buy.
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:23 pm

oh no...they have either broke the bank or are thinking of robbing it... Evil or Very Mad



all under the caption of another sunny day in Red Lodge...the hesitancy Joe and I had about taking our wives to Montana was very valid; but for all the wrong reasons Very Happy
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:46 pm

excellent idea...escaping by canoe... Smile


click pic for video..ps...might not work Embarassed

Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world’s great flood and
runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of the rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words,
and some of the words are theirs.

I am haunted by waters.

– Norman Maclean, A River Runs Through It
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:12 pm

Always a joy to deliver bulls to the next door neighbor of the next president of AAA...Prettier too, eh Mark? Very Happy
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:23 pm

Mike,

Hmmmm. I have no idea who the next president of the AAA is but I have talked to 2 ladies in the last week or so that said they need a bull from you. Both are prettier than a glorified penhooking registered breeder that I suspect could be the next president if I was to guess. Glad you were able to make someone happy including yourself. I know I have enjoyed delivering Bulls to Mayslick.
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:58 pm

I don`t know when the grass has ever been greener; the future clearer; the bulls cheaper; the cows happier on the shortest day of the year...



these are a couple of the bulls some of you that said "send me a bull for _______ " will be getting. They will be traveling far; so most anyone is in between their final destination. There`s well over 50 of them; so order up...Lathrop hauls cheaper by the dozen  Smile

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