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 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:59 pm

RobertMac wrote:
Have them on my CattlePro program.
Have been doing multi-sire the last couple years. I have 3 bulls out of a Lasater ET bull that I plan on using in single sire groups for the next couple years. Well, at least for part of the breeding season. I like throwing them all together after about 60 days including the yearling bulls.

are there sire  differences of economic importance? did Lasater start registering as a breeding aid or a marketing tool?
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:35 am

since I price my bulls relative to fat cattle prices, what is a bred 5-8 yr old cow, December 1, 2014 basis, calving mid-march 2015, worth relative to 500-550 lb weaned heifer calves...1000 X heifer price/lb??

2.25/lb currently here = $2250 per cow? the right bred heifers should be steer price...$2.50/lb = $2500??

good reports from the TN Tru-line breeder...verified by wanting to add more cows to the 50 he`s already bought...
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:59 pm

MKeeney wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
Have them on my CattlePro program.
Have been doing multi-sire the last couple years. I have 3 bulls out of a Lasater ET bull that I plan on using in single sire groups for the next couple years. Well, at least for part of the breeding season. I like throwing them all together after about 60 days including the yearling bulls.

are there sire  differences of economic importance?
Not sure if I understand the question, but, if about the 3 bulls I'm using, two are out of some of my most functional cows and the other is out of my last cow from the Lasater Foundation. The sire of the 3 is from a flush I bought from Laurie Lasater. These are the last direct connection to my foundation genetics.
did Lasater start registering as a breeding aid or a marketing tool?
I don't know the answer to that. I know Mr. Tom recommended breeders buy the best genetics they could afford, then when satisfied, close the herd and select based on the six essentials.
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:36 pm

MKeeney wrote:
since I price my bulls relative to fat cattle prices, what is a bred 5-8 yr old cow, December 1, 2014 basis, calving mid-march 2015, worth relative to 500-550 lb weaned heifer calves...1000 X heifer price/lb??

2.25/lb currently here = $2250 per cow? the right bred heifers should be steer price...$2.50/lb = $2500??

good reports from the TN Tru-line breeder...verified by wanting to add more cows to the 50 he`s already bought...

omg...you programmed this??

Writer: Blair Fannin, 979-845-2259, b-fannin@tamu.edu

CORPUS CHRISTI – Texas cattle producers looking to restock herds may choose to examine all options as financial dynamics have changed due to historic high cattle prices, according to Texas A&M AgriLife Extension Service economists.

A recent Financial and Risk Management Assistance report outlined several factors for South Texas cattle producers to consider when purchasing replacements. The publication was compiled by Corpus Christi AgriLife Extension economists Mac Young and Dr. Levi Russell; Dr. Joe Paschal, AgriLife Extension livestock specialist, Corpus Christi, and Dr. Steven Klose, AgriLife Extension economist, College Station, also served as co-author.

Current cattle prices, including replacements, are averaging 20 percent more than a year ago, according to a Texas A&M AgriLife Extension Service study. Availability of young pairs and open cattle will continue to be a challenge for cattle producers looking to rebuild or expand herds. (Texas A&M AgriLife Extension Service photo)
Current cattle prices, including replacements, are averaging 20 percent more than a year ago, according to a Texas A&M AgriLife Extension Service study. Availability of young pairs and open cattle will continue to be a challenge for cattle producers looking to rebuild or expand herds. (Texas A&M AgriLife Extension Service photo)

The Financial and Risk Management Assistance program, commonly referred to as FARM Assistance, is a computerized decision support system developed to perfect methods in risk and decisionmaking for farmers, according to AgriLife Extension economists.

The economists used a 200-head herd in South Texas as a case study. Costs and returns on management practices were typical of the area. These may and can vary by operators. Ten-year averages were used to analyze and compare net cash farm income. Open heifers, bred heifers, young pairs, old pairs and open cows were evaluated to see which types would generate the most net income.

“As we move forward, higher feeder and replacement cattle prices in 2014 will have a significant impact on the short- and long-term profitability of cattle operations in South Texas,” Young said.

Current cattle prices, including replacements, are averaging 20 percent more when compared to July 2013 prices, the report notes. Availability of young pairs and open cattle will continue to be a challenge for cattle producers looking to rebuild or expand herds, the economists noted.

“Depending on the availability and price of quality replacements, more than one stocking strategy may have to be used to rebuild a herd,” Young said. “In fact, it would be wise to revisit these and other options prior to purchase to re-evaluate them as conditions change in the future.”

Based on current 2014 market prices and conditions, restocking with older open cows may be the most profitable strategy at present time, according to the study. Prices for open cows in the past year have not increased in proportion to other replacement females, but availability may be an issue due to previous culling, Young said. Average 10-year cash farm income per cow was $377 for open cows, while olderpairs generated $341, young pairs $275, bred heifers $346 and open heifers $209.

“Bred heifers and older pairs also may offer more profitable strategies than young pairs or open heifers,” Young said. “The lower the initial capital outlay to repurchase cattle, and the availability of a calf to sell the first year, improves net cash farm income for bred heifers and pairs. Open heifers may be the least profitable way to replace due to not having a calf to sell in the first year and additional development costs.”

Young said in evaluating these restocking options, the important point to consider is the order or rank in terms of net cash farm income, not the actual value. In previous FARM Assistance studies, bred heifers and older pairs were more financially profitable than open cows.

Paschal emphasized that restocking considerations need to include more than the age and pregnancy status of the replacements. Additional management costs for extra feed and health, and death and replacement losses need to also be considered.

“In this analysis, open cows are now the most profitable,” Young said.

According to the study, actual results will likely vary by producer, management practices, forage conditions, and cattle markets. The culling and calving rates used in the study may or may not reflect actual practices.

“For example, younger females may have been culled too heavily and older females not heavily enough,” Young said. “Additionally, the availability and quality of females by class may be an issue. This analysis should be used only as a guide in evaluating restocking options, and it should be remembered that the best restocking scenario may change from season to season.”

To view the report, visit http://farmassistance.tamu.edu.
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:29 am

just wiling away the hours in my less than ivory tower before 18 more holes today...swing in a funk; but the weather is great to be outside...

she`s not square-hipped, fleshing ease, deep- ribbed, soft, or any of those other things that I wouldn`t want her to be...a first calver; guess I might use the calf...



closer inspection



the likely sire had too much sheath...better , but still noticeable in the calf...



I like his masculinity with being a little fat toad...
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:34 am

random, but posed...



toward the heifer bull selection side; maybe for home use...too many calves; too little time; too little difference to matter much given the randomness that still exists...probably will always exist..
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:01 am

actively participated in preserving genetics

How do you preserve genetics...except with semen...when every new generation is a random half?
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:00 am

If the desired type gets more frequent with each generation does it matter the exact genetics/ingredients?

BTW - nice green grass. Not much of that up here
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:20 am

MKeeney wrote:
actively participated in preserving genetics

How do you preserve genetics...except with semen...when every new generation is a random half?

Mental trick: old is better, new is better, what a person has for sale is better, what a person likes is better. All an issue of sales to avoid discussing the actual animals and their function and potential profitability for the owner.
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:49 pm

Finally got some data to share from this no record; no epd; no pedigree KA herd...66 of 70 open heifers were pregnant Monday; sires were 4 yearling Angus bulls running with 60 Angus heifers;  a skinny assed Wagyu running with 6 1/2 Wags and 4 simm/angus crosses used as receipts...
Today 40 of 42 2 yr old heifers were pregnant; sires were 3 yearling peas-in-a-pod Fenley{known cheers } sons from in herd,known  cheers , but no record cows...the 32 month old cows are bigger than the 20 month old bulls; so the bulls must be fairly athletic with libido...all the bulls are a heading to new homes; Travis`s already there; to be replaced by lessor known bulls just weaned...

I sent a calving ease  Fenley son that Dunkum bred to N California a while back; mostly just for the fun of it; and to see if it might spread this Tru-Line concept a bit...



so far; seems to be serving the purpose...I think the calving on the heifers went well; of course, with the poor epd`s mine and Joe`s shared gene pool has, you know the calves just won`t grow as evidenced below  Wink  Wink  Wink



Joe being a registered breeder, the sire would be a good registered bull for the masses to order a few thousand straws of semen on...exportable to Uruguay, Guillermo   Smile  Smile

thanks for the pictures Clay; makes it all fun and worthwhile...
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:48 am

I see farao averages near $9000 for those who don`t know the difference between price and value; to the cheers of the registurd business...Briann and I were chatting last night about how easy this is...adding to that conversation, I would say that Larry created the base genetics and eventually evolved to the selection system he well explained that each of us can employ; and I do...how can I attempt to charge more for someone else work?
oh, you think our genetics aren`t as good as farao ? face to face, head to head, bull for bull, anytime, any place ...in fact, for a true test, every facet of beef production...
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:41 pm

MKeeney wrote:
I see farao averages near $9000 for those who don`t know the difference between price and value

As the saying goes "Fools and their money are easily parted"
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:48 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
I see farao averages near $9000 for those who don`t know the difference between price and value

As the saying goes "Fools and their money are easily parted"

I am absolutely dumbfounded that there are so many ...though history has always shown how easily lead people can be if you promise them miracles...sorry, no miracles in tru-line; the greatest treasure/pleasure of tru-line would be you don`t have to associate with fools...
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:46 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Finally got some data to share from this no record; no epd; no pedigree KA herd...66 of 70 open heifers were pregnant Monday; sires were 4 yearling Angus bulls running with 60 Angus heifers;  a skinny assed Wagyu running with 6 1/2 Wags and 4 simm/angus crosses used as receipts...
Today 40 of 42 2 yr old heifers were pregnant; sires were 3 yearling peas-in-a-pod Fenley{known cheers } sons from in herd,known  cheers , but no record cows...the 32 month old cows are bigger than the 20 month old bulls; so the bulls must be fairly athletic with libido...all the bulls are a heading to new homes; Travis`s already there; to be replaced by lessor known bulls just weaned...

I sent a calving ease  Fenley son that Dunkum bred to N California a while back; mostly just for the fun of it; and to see if it might spread this Tru-Line concept a bit...



so far; seems to be serving the purpose...I think the calving on the heifers went well; of course, with the poor epd`s mine and Joe`s shared gene pool has, you know the calves just won`t grow as evidenced below  Wink  Wink  Wink



Joe being a registered breeder, the sire would be a good registered bull for the masses to order a few thousand straws of semen on...exportable to Uruguay, Guillermo   Smile  Smile

thanks for the pictures Clay; makes it all fun and worthwhile...

thought I best add; the 2yr old heifer/calf pic  is a dangling carrot ; fun to look at; but not renewable ...big bull calves at weaning /yearling don`r repeat their relatively smaller dam size...if you want higher % calf weight to dam weight on a regular basis; it takes two renewable kinds ...the cross, or the anomaly pictured,  is not renewable...
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:50 pm

Mark was here today; we found the little cull heifer that could...despite her poor performance records

Mark sent this pic of her dam...and being a record keeper, even her pedigree Smile



she looks ordinary enough to be a keeper imo...and easy to see the resemblance in her daughter that has an improved udder over her mama...pic when it quits raining; if it quits raining
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:15 am

MKeeney wrote:
...pic when it quits raining; if it quits raining

Welcome to my world ......................... sigh
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:55 am

Mike,
It was a very enjoyable and learning trip as always. It was quite pleasing to see that 2 year old heifer with a more than nice enough calf at side enjoying a meal from teats and udder that are just about perfect. I did enjoy seeing the D in the ear tag and knowing that her sire was a homegrown bull of mine that I may have delivered to you at sometime. I enjoyed seeing how well the yellow tag yearling heifers I brought down this summer are doing that are also out of my homegrown bulls. I am not promoting my bulls but the concept you have preached that more people would likely be better off using their own Bulls than a high dollar bull from someplace else. You don't need to go buy a $9000 bull to make good, profitable cattle.
What I enjoy maybe the most about your cattle is the uniformity. They look like the score sheet of a very steady golfer - lots of solid pars and birdies with few bogeys and no double bogeys.
Thanks for being such a great mentor and friend over the years.
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:31 am

Mark, we`re all just stumbling down the same road together; but at least we`re not retracing our steps...
Nice having Briann here; I`m on the computer at my little desk; he`s on his laptop at the kitchen table...you never have to look anyone in the eye in modern society; and if we can`t type fast enough; we can just talk to each other between rooms Shocked Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:16 am

I always enjoy Gavin`s newsletter...his experiences reinforce many basic tru-line principles...

November 2014

Summer is upon us and every thing is growing well after a very wet Spring. Our country has diverted into dairying and many millions have been invested in the expensive dairy sheds, subdivisions of the land and access within farm roads. Government forgot all about the sheep and beef industry in its excitement about the demand for dairy products. Everyone thought that the prices would go on for ever, with the effect that many in the industry are very highly geared. The prices have dropped 45% which means that if these prices remain, many dairy farms will run at a loss. The financial strength of any country or business depends upon the number of products it produces and the diversity of markets that those product are sold to. Then fluctuation is ironed out.

The saying for this month is: For every characteristic you add to a breeding program your progress goes down by square roots. This does not mean you do not have a multifactor breeding program, in fact I believe that you must, because each of us should be heading off to a specific goal and you cannot achieve that goal without it.

The reason your progress goes down by square roots is that some of the characters you are selecting for are antagonistic. Growth and fertility being the prime ones. This just means that you are making progress very slowly.
It is also tied up with the randomising of the genetic take up at conception.
I have been thinking about inbreeding levels and when it becomes so concentrated it begins to limit variation.

In population genetics which is the theory you should be using if you wish to improve the performance of your whole herd, Question  it is important you do not tie yourself in to one bull. In other words use that wonder bull on all your cows year after year.  Question


There are a whole lot of things that you should be deciding. First you are you in the business of longterm breeding. Are you hoping for the next generation of the family at least, to carry on your herd?. If so then you must use a multiple of bulls per year to avoid getting into trouble.

What always must be remembered is that the Angus breed began from a very narrow base. This means that all the purebred herds are already closely related. This being so, then the use of the same bull year after year brings up your inbreeding levels. On the other hand it appears that if you are using multiple bulls then your inbreeding level remains close to the same and variation is not being effected.

Son William has always been worried about inbreeding levels. So I wrote to the Scientist controlling the No1 Hereford line at Miles City Montana, as I knew that that herd was an experiment on just this factor. Among the data that he sent me was a letter in which he stated that in the close to 100 years of selection the variation had never changed and he did not believe that it ever would!

In our own herd the local breed association wrote a history of the local herds in 1963. I knew most of the history of our herd in that my father began it with the purchase of three cows in 1919. I found to my surprise that of the three cows the remaining herd all came from one of the cows.
This appears to be a feature of evolution, the narrowing of the base. In his book “The Seven Daughters of Eve” professor Bryan Sykes states that he has taken DNA samples from a big sample of the world’s people and that they all trace back to one of seven women.
This does not mean that there were only seven women in the world at that time, because the women were spread over about 3000 years. But that each of those women had something special about them that their children survived, overcame desease, could run fast enough to escape from predators and all those things necessary for survival and were fertile enough for their descendants to still be around.
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:55 am

Gavin wrote
1 For every characteristic you add to a breeding program your progress goes down by square roots. This does not mean you do not have a multifactor breeding program, in fact I believe that you must, because each of us should be heading off to a specific goal and you cannot achieve that goal without it.

The reason your progress goes down by square roots is that some of the characters you are selecting for are antagonistic. Growth and fertility being the prime ones

mk replies
number 1 is the basic tenet of a tru-line approach; to make faster progress with more reliable results, don`t select for more of everything...
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df



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:22 am

MKeeney wrote:
Gavin wrote
1 For every characteristic you add to a breeding program your progress goes down by square roots. This does not mean you do not have a multifactor breeding program, in fact I believe that you must, because each of us should be heading off to a specific goal and you cannot achieve that goal without it.

The reason your progress goes down by square roots is that some of the characters you are selecting for are antagonistic. Growth and fertility being the prime ones

mk replies
number 1 is the basic tenet of a tru-line approach; to make faster progress with more reliable results, don`t select for more of everything...

How many traits do you select and do you use tandem selection, independant culling levels or selection indexes? Or a combination?
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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:03 pm

df asked
How many traits do you select and do you use tandem selection, independent culling levels or selection indexes? Or a combination?


none of the above; your advanced terminology is only useful to make the simple complicated; commonplace in the registered con game...

remember how you learned to read using pictures; here`s a cattle breeding primer...
this is a cow; female; therefore, a maternal, model A prospect

culled @ weaning by "performance selection"
culled @ yearling by "performance selection"
bred @ 15 months; by "functional selection"
culled @ 18 months by  "performance selection"



calved unassisted @ 24 months by "functional selection"
selected for phenotype by "breeding experience for functional type"
soooo...if she weans an 85 ratio ww, yw bull; is he eliminated as a maternal sire?

not @ Keeney Angus

the below, the terminators,  have been selected for most everything she hasn`t been...





it really isn`t necessary to demonstrate the expected breeding results; no formula is needed among cattlemen; already been shown here @ KC by BobH...the experiment is about developing complementary relationships among breeders that further the Tru-line concept ...how encouraging for us little guys to work with/for people whose business is bigger than their ego... cheers cheers
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:50 pm

Nice enough young cow Mike. Where can I get a bull to make more of those? Smile
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:20 pm

From the cow in your herd that did the same.
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: 2014 Keeney Angus Spring Bull Sale   Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:49 pm

Y'all know I'm an ignorant MISSISSIPPI STATE redneck, but I don't waste, I mean take the time, to keep up with "modern technology", but what is tandem selection, independent culling levels and selection indexes? Ok, I know selection indexes are EPDs and such, but, obviously I need educating.
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