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 Kiss of Death! Damn!

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MVCatt



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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:57 pm

PatB wrote:
There is a benefit from removing open animals for what ever reason they are open, poor adaptation, genetic defect or some other reason.  
Would it matter if some of those so called terminal sire lines turned out to be genetic defect carriers...if they stood the test of time?


PatB wrote:
If an animals fails to breed and deliver a calf at weaning every year why should they pass their genetics on to future generations?
If passing on genetics is so important, why the annual crap shoot with A.I. bulls?
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:39 pm

MVCatt wrote:
PatB wrote:
There is a benefit from removing open animals for what ever reason they are open, poor adaptation, genetic defect or some other reason.  
Would it matter if some of those so called terminal sire lines turned out to be genetic defect carriers...if they stood the test of time?


PatB wrote:
If an animals fails to breed and deliver a calf at weaning every year why should they pass their genetics on to future generations?
If passing on genetics is so important, why the annual crap shoot with A.I. bulls?
Using any bull is a crap shoot.
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:49 pm

It is pretty tough for infertile animals to have much influence if you quit helping them. Turn em out, let them be, and the most reproductive will have the most influence.

As to the kiss of death's description of inbreeding- how does that explain my inbred bull that went walkabout to visit the neighbor and took the entire herd from two Limousin Hybred bulls with 4-6" and 300-400 pounds on him?

Without considering what they are selected for- the stereotypes and academic definitions mean nothing. two
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:52 pm

PatB wrote:

Using any bull is a crap shoot.  
I remember when I thought that. Those were the days.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:02 pm

PatB wrote:
MVCatt wrote:
PatB wrote:
There is a benefit from removing open animals for what ever reason they are open, poor adaptation, genetic defect or some other reason.  
Would it matter if some of those so called terminal sire lines turned out to be genetic defect carriers...if they stood the test of time?


PatB wrote:
If an animals fails to breed and deliver a calf at weaning every year why should they pass their genetics on to future generations?
If passing on genetics is so important, why the annual crap shoot with A.I. bulls?
Using any bull is a crap shoot.  
picture this...all the pages of the AI stud books tacked to the wall...the popular sires have a better chance of being chosen because their picture is bigger...Pat throws darts at the wall to pick his bulls...

and I heartily approve of his methods; what is really different about them except their names?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:26 pm

PatB wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
I`m just debunking the idea that permeates so much purebred BS advertising; that we treat`em tough, cull opens, and our fertility is great as a result...I`m of the opinion that the greatest economic benefit of culling open cows is the feed cost savings rather than the economic benefit derived from the genetic improvement of fertility in a herd by culling...
 
I agree the greastest economic benefit from caulling open cows is feed cost savings.  There is a benefit from removing open animals for what ever reason they are open, poor adaptation, genetic defect or some other reason.   If an animals fails to breed and deliver a calf at weaning every year why should they pass their genetics on to future generations?
maybe because the future generations will have the same hit and miss, crap shoot performance?
careful what you agree with; it may be cheaper to carry an open 2 over than develop an open heifer into a cow...that may screw up as well....
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:38 pm

RobertMac wrote:
MK wrote:
I believe Robert`s talking adaptation rather than fertility
Fertility is an indicator of adaptation. Adaptation is an indicator of a strong endocrine system. A strong endocrine system is a indicator of good genetics. A good breeder knows how to perpetuate good genetics. I have no illusion of being a breeder.

Fulfilling all nutritional needs doesn't necessarily make one a great breeder, but it does make great looking cattle...as long as they are by the feed bunk.

If a cow had a hundred or so offspring in a year, I would be happy with 85%.
Animals aren't plants...I'm obviously missing something.
all cattle perform {weight} relative to their nutritional intake; there is no free lunch...fertility is unrelated to feed by my definition; % pregnant may be highly related to feed ...sound confusing?

a herd has a 100 or so offspring in a year...and the national average calf crop has been around 80% or slightly less for 30 years...every cow in your herd was born from a cow that had a calf; just like the wheat...

what you and Pat are missing is that you think purebred stock must be superior individuals in order to produce superior commercial animals...that`s not necessarily a requirement; just a misconception initiated and perpetuated by the so-called "performance testing" movement...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:43 pm

PatB wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
Does zero tolerance on your females for reproductive slippage mean anything if the sires you use are from generations of donor cows bred for terminal traits?



PatB wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
I`m just debunking the idea that permeates so much purebred BS advertising; that we treat`em tough, cull opens, and our fertility is great as a result...I`m of the opinion that the greatest economic benefit of culling open cows is the feed cost savings rather than the economic benefit derived from the genetic improvement of fertility in a herd by culling...
 
I agree the greastest economic benefit from caulling open cows is feed cost savings.  There is a benefit from removing open animals for what ever reason they are open, poor adaptation, genetic defect or some other reason.   If an animals fails to breed and deliver a calf at weaning every year why should they pass their genetics on to future generations?
It does not matter who the sire or dam of an animal that fails to deliver a calf at weaning or fails the preq test.   Some sire lines have failed the test of time as their descendants are no longer in the herd.  Some of the so called terminal sires have stood the test of time with their daughters staying in production.  
the above in red bold is a misuse of the phrase "sire lines"; that phrase should be saved for where linebreeding programs are in place...correct in your breeding program where there is no continuity past a registration paper would be "sire progeny"
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:27 am

MKeeney wrote:
PatB wrote:
MVCatt wrote:
PatB wrote:
There is a benefit from removing open animals for what ever reason they are open, poor adaptation, genetic defect or some other reason.  
Would it matter if some of those so called terminal sire lines turned out to be genetic defect carriers...if they stood the test of time?


PatB wrote:
If an animals fails to breed and deliver a calf at weaning every year why should they pass their genetics on to future generations?
If passing on genetics is so important, why the annual crap shoot with A.I. bulls?
Using any bull is a crap shoot.  
picture this...all the pages of the AI stud books tacked to the wall...the popular sires have a better chance of being chosen because their picture is bigger...Pat throws darts at the wall to pick his bulls...

and I heartily approve of his methods; what is really different about them except their names?
I always knew I was a poor dart player but it seems I could not hit the wall with the pictures the last several times I ordered semen. The best of AI bulls will do you no good if the AI tech is lousy at their job. I will try AIing the cows myself this year with a nice young bull as a back up after 20 day ai season.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:33 am

I suspect the reason several sires offspring had high failure rates for breeding/delivering a calf at weaning was genetic defect. I do not have the dna material or the desire to prove this theory.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:17 am

PatB wrote:
 I will try AIing the cows myself this year with a nice young bull as a back up after 20 day ai season.
I just don't understand your thinking Pat. Why not bin the darts and the AI gloves and just let the nice young bull out with them? Is the lure of getting something promoted as better, superior or different through AI just too strong?
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:04 am

Mike, you are wrong about me. I believe seedstock animals should be superior commercial animals FIRST.
I don't believe I could get any farther away from the so-called "performance testing" movement.

Eddie, when I started down this road, my "registered BS" cattle were breeding at a little over 60%. I even went to two calving seasons. Now conception is around 90%, heifers less than that, but I do little to "develop" them other than giving them the best grass and not having to fight cows for hay. I've also seen improvement with parasite resistance...only treated one calf this year. Most of my improvement is credited to Lasater genetics.

I think culling opens improves genetics only if no outside genetics are introduced into the herd.
What did Jim Lents say? Every time you use an outside bull, you reshuffle your genetic deck.
Pat is starting over every year.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:27 am

Mike, you are wrong about me. I believe seedstock animals should be superior commercial animals FIRST.

The above proves I`m right; also may prove I`m poor at clarity...parent seed corn has poor fertility; poor performance...but when crossed, is superior commercially...the question seems to be...must an animal be superior individually by the customary measures, to produce superior individuals of commercial economic superiority? ....I don`t think so...
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:33 pm

PatB wrote:
I suspect the reason several sires offspring had high failure rates for breeding/delivering a calf at weaning was genetic defect.  I do not have the dna material or the desire to prove this theory.  

Suddenly it all makes sense.
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MVCatt



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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:33 pm

PatB wrote:
I suspect the reason several sires offspring had high failure rates for breeding/delivering a calf at weaning was genetic defect.  I do not have the dna material or the desire to prove this theory.  
Well it takes two to tango when it comes to defects. But when you're willing to use bulls out of a catalog that you know little about it's a legitimate concern. The testing is simply a way to avoid close breeding (hell that would start to make them purebreds). In the club calf world the dirty genes are actually better at producing their end product. It's a pretty sad state of affairs when a bunch of Show Jocks know more about breeding cattle than most of the registard industry...at least they'll admit they're breeding terminal.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:03 pm

MVCatt wrote:
PatB wrote:
I suspect the reason several sires offspring had high failure rates for breeding/delivering a calf at weaning was genetic defect.  I do not have the dna material or the desire to prove this theory.  
Well it takes two to tango when it comes to defects. But when you're willing to use bulls out of a catalog that you know little about it's a legitimate concern. The testing is simply a way to avoid close breeding (hell that would start to make them purebreds). In the club calf world the dirty genes are actually better at producing their end product. It's a pretty sad state of affairs when a bunch of Show Jocks know more about breeding cattle than most of the registard industry...at least they'll admit they're breeding terminal.
Some of the suspect bulls were home raised and the genetic defect came from the dam. It is possible one or more AI sires carried the same defect.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:10 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
PatB wrote:
 I will try AIing the cows myself this year with a nice young bull as a back up after 20 day ai season.
I just don't understand your thinking Pat. Why not bin the darts and the AI gloves and just let the nice young bull out with them? Is the lure of getting something promoted as better, superior or different through AI just too strong?


There will be no sons kept out of last years herd bull so that leaves AI and 3 possilbe AI sired sons.
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MVCatt



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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:45 pm

PatB wrote:
Some of the suspect bulls were home raised and the genetic defect came from the dam.  It is possible one or more AI sires carried the same defect.  
Pat, I admire the fact that you sampled some of these genetics through home raised sons. I understand your concerns regarding defects if this is the route you have chosen to take (I just feel there are a lot easier ways, without so many unknowns). Your interest in defect testing is because you want to use it as a tool for breeding cattle. But, I feel your constituent's interest lays in selling guy's like you semen, without first testing these genetics in their own herds. Exulting the outcrossed outlier through a simple test with little regard for anything else.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:23 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
PatB wrote:
 I will try AIing the cows myself this year with a nice young bull as a back up after 20 day ai season.
I just don't understand your thinking Pat. Why not bin the darts and the AI gloves and just let the nice young bull out with them? Is the lure of getting something promoted as better, superior or different through AI just too strong?
Las Vegas has thrived based on people betting against odds that they already know, that on average, produces losers...I believe some even enjoy this defect chase; the excitement, the anticipation, the agony and the ecstasy, of clean or dirty...anything to avoid the humdrum, boring process of consistent renewal ...
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:53 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
PatB wrote:
 I will try AIing the cows myself this year with a nice young bull as a back up after 20 day ai season.
I just don't understand your thinking Pat. Why not bin the darts and the AI gloves and just let the nice young bull out with them? Is the lure of getting something promoted as better, superior or different through AI just too strong?
Las Vegas has thrived based on people betting against odds that they already know, that on average, produces losers...I believe some even enjoy this defect chase; the excitement, the anticipation, the agony and the ecstasy, of clean or dirty...anything to avoid the humdrum, boring process of consistent renewal ...
I prefer the excitement of finding healthy calves in the morning that need tagging and weighing. Have 8 calves by AI and should have around 48 by the walking sire.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:00 pm

MVCatt wrote:
PatB wrote:
Some of the suspect bulls were home raised and the genetic defect came from the dam.  It is possible one or more AI sires carried the same defect.  
Pat, I admire the fact that you sampled some of these genetics through home raised sons. I understand your concerns regarding defects if this is the route you have chosen to take (I just feel there are a lot easier ways, without so many unknowns). Your interest in defect testing is because you want to use it as a tool for breeding cattle. But, I feel your constituent's interest lays in selling guy's like you semen, without first testing these genetics in their own herds. Exulting the outcrossed outlier through a simple test with little regard for anything else.
The last 4 years we have had far more natural sired calves than AI calves. The genetic challenges were from matings made in the early 90's and before.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:10 pm

PatB wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
PatB wrote:
 I will try AIing the cows myself this year with a nice young bull as a back up after 20 day ai season.
I just don't understand your thinking Pat. Why not bin the darts and the AI gloves and just let the nice young bull out with them? Is the lure of getting something promoted as better, superior or different through AI just too strong?
Las Vegas has thrived based on people betting against odds that they already know, that on average, produces losers...I believe some even enjoy this defect chase; the excitement, the anticipation, the agony and the ecstasy, of clean or dirty...anything to avoid the humdrum, boring process of consistent renewal ...
I prefer the excitement of finding healthy calves in the morning that need tagging and weighing.  Have 8 calves by AI and should have around 48 by the walking sire.  
I guess you have said but I have forgotten: what is the end goal with your search through AI sires? I am trying to remember if it is carcass traits. How will you know that you have arrived at the finish line and can then start using your own bulls for 100% of the herd?

Anybody else want to describe an end goal? Any terminal breeders who never can tweak the carcass traits enough or can you just use Wagyu and call it good enough? I would think that maternal breeders would just be wanting a higher percentage of heifers that are alike in the medium range of traits and the bulls will fall out to be what they are to keep making more of the desirable females?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:18 pm

one more thought/math on fertility and culling...fertility is 10-15% heritability...20 open heifers out of a 100...so 2 or 3 open because of fertility....which 3? don`t know....so, cull them all, gets the 3...but genetic progress is limited to the effect of culling three; not the culled 20...
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:30 am

MKeeney wrote:
one more thought/math on fertility and culling...fertility is 10-15% heritability...20 open heifers out of a 100...so 2 or 3 open because of fertility....which 3? don`t know....so, cull them all, gets the 3...but genetic progress is limited to the effect of culling three; not the culled 20...
But if you come back with the same bull that sired the heifers or come in with an AI bull selected for carcass what have you gained? You'd need to be turning bulls over quickly that come from a line of always fertile females to gain anything in a man's lifetime.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Kiss of Death! Damn!   Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:56 am

The consequences of inbreeding {it takes inbreeding to make breeds...mk} are insidious but obvious if you look - decreased fertility


using reverse logic, since crossbreeding improves fertility, the above must be true about inbreeding...rather than a expression of a failure of selection and elimination of deleterious genes, perhaps the decreased fertility associated with inbreeding is a mere ramification of the homozygous condition...?
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