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 Fence isn't hot enough!

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Eqwne5



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Join date : 2013-08-23

PostSubject: Fence isn't hot enough!   Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:45 pm

I have some property in the Eagle, Idaho foothills where the land is dry rolling hills (no irrigation).  The ground is dry, dry, dry, especially this summer where the temperatures have been hanging above 95º since June with only two drops of rain.  I have a very naughty Arabian gelding that I have had trouble keeping behind a fence since he was two years old.  He'll stay in only if he wants to.  he sticks his head under the electric fence and lets it just roll down his back.  (He has always been a pain with fencing but it didn't help that my renters kept forgetting to turn the fence back on when they turned if off but now he doesn't even care and goes under any fence - hot or not.  He's not doing it for food.  He'll have a bin full of fresh hay and a buddy and he'll still slip under the fence...because he can).

The pasture is poly rope with either a Parmak Deluxe Field Solar Pak 6 (6 volt) or a Parmak Mag 12UO 12 v DC charger.  The pasture is three strands of poly rope on two sides.  1/2 mile x 1/4 mile.  (The other two sides are perimeter barbed wire fencing to keep range cows out. Luckily my gelding hasn't tangled with the barbed wire.)  I have three ground rods that start about 6' from the fence charger.  The first two strands of poly rope are hot.  I strung a third strand recently as a ground strand - hooking it directly to my ground rods.  I also attached the poly rope directly to each t-post with metal wire, thinking maybe it would be grounding that line even more since it was attached to over 80 metal t-posts (thinking it would be like having 80 ground rods???).

I would like your suggestions...do I need a bigger charger with more joules?  More ground rods?  Or a different horse? Very Happy   We have had up to 22 horses on the property (total of 160 acres divided into 4 different pastures) with no problems.  Just my obnoxious gelding that needs the tar zapped out of him so he will respect the fence.

The ranch is off the power grid so we would like to use solar or battery powered but if I have to shock the tar out of him I could run a small generator to run an AC charger for a while.

Thank you!
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RobertMac



Posts : 262
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: Fence isn't hot enough!   Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:12 pm

The ground strand is your best option, but you need to position the strands so the horse has to put its head between the hot and ground strands to get out.
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EddieM



Posts : 648
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Fence isn't hot enough!   Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:38 pm

And you can try wetting the ground around the ground rods, too. Sounds like it is time for a new horse. If you have a dog training collar you could use it to train the horse. Zap him a few times and he'll quit. I read an article a few years ago that they "cured" horses from cribbing and it only took a couple of times.
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Hilly



Posts : 388
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : Sylvan Lake, Alberta

PostSubject: Re: Fence isn't hot enough!   Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:14 pm

I don’t work with dry conditions but I know they recommend a Bentonite salt grounding system in dry areas.
http://www.speedrite.com/en-us/helpful-information/ground-systems#

For the length of fence you have I would think you can get away with a fencer small enough to run on a 40watt panel and save the cost of a regulator.

When I hear the term “Poly Rope” right away that is where I would look for a problem as quality of poly rope at a half mile distance is important due to poor conductivity.

But as mention selling the horse will likely be the cheapest and quickest fix Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Fence isn't hot enough!   Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:20 pm

What kinds of poly wire or Rope do you use Craig. I am totally new to electric fencing and need to find out, what works as well.
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Hilly



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Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : Sylvan Lake, Alberta

PostSubject: Re: Fence isn't hot enough!   Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:29 pm

Everyone will have different opinions and experiences.

Horses typically are fenced with rope but I never found a rope that was much good for over 200m, so I lean toward Turbo Tape to provide the added visibility with conductivity to much greater lengths. The down side being the break strength is a little too big a number for high priced horses.

I have tried about every poly wire, braid and tape I could buy over the years. The braid with 4 tinned copper strands and 4 stainless is more visible then standard poly and but I find it too bulky and once broke it is harder to splice and maintain conductivity through the splice.

Poly wire is more user friendly but I look for wire with 9 wire strands, there are a few out there that work but I have found that not all are equal in the ability to handle constant UV wear.

In the end I use almost exclusively Turbo wire (Gallagher), I know it is extra cost but for me it has always been worth it. It has 9 strands and a 76 kg break strength... Which can be nasty if an animal gets wrapped up in a hot wire.

I know there are people using small aircraft cable and I have no experience with that. I would think it would be awful heavy reels over ¼ mile and I can imagine what would happen if a leg got caught in it. It would work well for gates I would think.
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PostSubject: Re: Fence isn't hot enough!   Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:51 pm

Thanks Craig as I am but a Novice with electric fence. And any advice is valued.
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Grassfarmer



Posts : 714
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Fence isn't hot enough!   Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:59 am

I use purely the small aircraft cable now for my moveable fences and am happy with it. Visibility will not be as good as some of the white tape/ropes but I always say they don't need to see it they only need to feel it Twisted Evil. Biggest problem with it is weight as Craig says. We have up to 1/4 mile on the reels and they are heavy enough. Also you need to put a breakaway in it otherwise the geared reels get broken any time it gets hit by a truck/moose/stampeding cows. I tie the handle onto the end of the wire with a 1/2 thickness piece of bale twine and that works for me. It also rusts if it sits in water for a few days (got one drowned in the river once when it was running high)
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Mark Day



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Join date : 2010-09-24
Age : 51
Location : Russellville, Ohio

PostSubject: Re: Fence isn't hot enough!   Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:33 am

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EddieM



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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Fence isn't hot enough!   Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:41 am

W.T wrote:
Thanks Craig as I am but a Novice with electric fence. And any advice is valued.
For us, the cattle see the white poliwire better than the other colors. This is only an observation of coming back the next morning to find the fence down more often.

I also have done the sodium bentonite mix on ground rods. Call me lazy or call me smart, I don't care. But when the ground is dry and I had to drive in 8' ground rods, l looked for an easier way. I put the posthole digger on the tractor and dug each hole (15' apart) for the ground rods. Cleaned out the holes and filled them with water. Did the water fill the next day. Then drove the rod in the bottom of the hole much easier with the moisture. Took the soil that came out of the hole, mixed in about 5 pounds of sodium bentonite per hole and refilled. Overkill, maybe, but if you only drive in rods and keep checking the last rod with your el-chepo fence tester you usually find that you are still needing another ground rod. This minimizes the number of ground rods needed.

To test the loss on the last ground rod, take the fence tester and put the ground spike in the soil as far away from the last ground rod as possible. Touch the fence tester probe to the last ground rod. If you need more ground rods you will actually see the tester flash as if you are checking an electric fence. This is done, of course, with the fence charger going. I am sure they have a MUCH better way to do this in Iowa.

Also, do not use dissimilar metals in the grounding system. If the rods are copper clad, use copper or copper clad everything else (clamps, connective wire, etc) or the system will diminish over 7 years or less.
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Hilly



Posts : 388
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : Sylvan Lake, Alberta

PostSubject: Re: Fence isn't hot enough!   Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:21 am

Mark Day wrote:
What I like.

http://www.powerflexfenceonline.com/product_p/pbsc4.htm
Mark, we used a fair bit of that here and maybe we just had bad luck but it work really well as long as it was used in a deadhead situation just not part of a circuit and the problems occurred not just at splices.

As far as visibility I only buy the orange Turbo any more, I have not had a problem in the summer like some have and that may be due to the cattle knowing and being raised all their life on daily moves. But since we have more winter then summer the orange is more visible and many mornings the wire is covered with heavy frost, the orange attracts the morning sun early enough that by the time the cows start moving around the fence is back up.
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Eqwne5



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Join date : 2013-08-23

PostSubject: Re: Fence isn't hot enough!   Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:16 pm

I added more ground rods to the system and will be adding another strand of fence today that will be hooked to the ground system for instantaneous maximum shock. I soaked the ground rods with a hose for about 2 hours last night (not sure how far the water will penetrate our sun baked earth until we get some rain but it might help. (We need rain, Idaho is literally on fire this summer.)

I read somewhere about adding ground rods every 1600' of fence. I wonder if that would help??

I got the fence up to 5 kv last night but wasn't brave enough to keep my gelding out overnight since he was eyeballing the fence as I was working on it and slipped under the fence when I had it turned off.

I like the one post about getting a dog collar/invisible fence system for him!

If he wasn't such a level headed, smooth ride, mountain horse he would be down the road getting out of someone else's pasture! (That option is still open for discussion!)

Thank you for letting me ask this question on a cattle forum. I figured cattle ranchers would know how to keep a horse in since you keep your cows in.

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Grassfarmer



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Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Fence isn't hot enough!   Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:54 pm

I know nothing about horses but I wouldn't use the shock collars on a dog with any level of intelligence. I know a few guys that tried them on border collies and without exception they ruined the dogs for life in terms of getting them to work and respond to commands which the collar was supposed to be helping with.
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OAK LANE FARM



Posts : 81
Join date : 2010-09-25

PostSubject: Re: Fence isn't hot enough!   Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:17 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
I know nothing about horses but I wouldn't use the shock collars on a dog with any level of intelligence. I know a few guys that tried them on border collies and without exception they ruined the dogs for life in terms of getting them to work and respond to commands which the collar was supposed to be helping with.
When my Border Collie gets into the electric fence that is it, she sits in the pickup the rest of the day.  My young one has a personality like her breeder so I am expecting her to jump up and bite the fence back.
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sanjose



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Join date : 2011-12-13
Age : 58
Location : Williams Lake B.C. Canada

PostSubject: Fence Isn't Hot Enough   Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:50 am

Ground rods might be a problem and Everything Hilly said about poly has also been problems if the typical farm store crap is being used, but I would also suspect the energizer. If you have the chance to borrow a decent gallagher or Speedrite/Stafix energizer that is about 6 joules of output and hook it to at least 3 six foot galvanized ground rods spaced 10 feet apart in moist ground you will not need to get rid of the horse. Good quality poly will outperform aircraft cable and won't void warranty on geared reels or wear out your shoulder as you carry and roll it up. It will also break if it needs to instead of wrecking your reel and sawing the leg off whatever runs through it. Another way around grounding issues is by taking advantage of the bi-polar option that some models of Speedrite/Stafix energizers are capable of. You only need one ground rod but you need two runs of wire or poly on the fence. Each wire runs 5000 volts but one is positive and the other is negative. Whichever wire is touches still gives 5000 volts but when both are contacted you get the whole 10000. This type of fence is popular in dry country or winter grazing situations where grounding is an issue. Hope this helps.
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RobertMac



Posts : 262
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: Fence isn't hot enough!   Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:24 pm

Sanjose, you point about the energizer is a good one...it takes more shock to train an animal than to keep a trained animal in.

Eqwne5, here is something you can try.
Sounds like you have a corral or barn to keep the horse in. Use your polyrope to divide the corral in half with the water trough on one side and the horse on the other. Wet the ground under the rope, especially on the side the horse will be standing. This should maximize the shock from the energizer through the horse. Run a ground wire from the energizer to the wet ground in the corral if needed.

I haven't used or heard of the bi-polar energizers, but that would be excellent for your situation.
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Grassfarmer



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Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Fence isn't hot enough!   Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:49 pm

RobertMac wrote:


I haven't used or heard of the bi-polar energizers, but that would be excellent for your situation.
I'd think a bi-polar energizer would be rather unpredictable Laughing
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Kent Powell



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Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Fence isn't hot enough!   Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:09 pm

While no one wants to hear it, animals that do not fit the environment you provide, may need to go. There are way too many good ones available to put up with a problem.
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