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 Developmental Duplication genetic condition

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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:49 am

Mike

I will be and many other cattle producers take financial losses due to slipped calves or fertility issues caused by this defect and others similar to it. Hopefully removing of animals that show fertility issues from the herd will reduce the incidences of fertility defects. What is couple of extra calves a year worth to the bottom line?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:12 am

PatB wrote:
Mike

I will be and many other cattle producers take financial losses due to slipped calves or fertility issues caused by this defect and others similar to it.  Hopefully removing of animals that show fertility issues from the herd will reduce the incidences of fertility defects.  What is couple of extra calves a year worth to the bottom line?
sorry Pat, not a clear question on my part...who are the registered breeders that will suffer the greatest monetary losses? losses will be directly proportional to how much they paid for what is now defective cattle ? what is the lesson some should be learning by now? don`t pay too much for any breeding stock; the genetics aren`t worth it; the extraordinary prices are for admittance to the con game, and these cattle just got kicked out...and no OT, Greg`s cattle aren`t worth anymore today than they were 2 weeks ago to a commercial cattle; what they will do genetically hasn`t changed a bit...

does the scientific community really believe these are recent mutations, or is mutation a handy excuse for all the outside breeds/blood that have been improperly added to the Angus registry?
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:30 am

It is my understanding that this defect is very old and could also affect most mammal species.  I have no idea who is going to take the biggest hit from this latest defect and don't eally care but more genetic defects will be identified in the future.   I am more worried what it will do to my program as I have used several of the bulls listed as carriers in the past.  I can think of several  incidence that have been ignored by the AAA the involved registered sires and commercial dams.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:40 am

MKeeney wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
LCP wrote:


LCP, waiting for the $LEG index to be unveiled
Laughing Laughing 

This sure makes Greg Goldens (Cole Creek Angus) catalog line "This herd is free of and has NO 9J9-Precision, NO Fame-Focus, NO 315-036-New Design, and NO Bando 155-Bando 598" that much more significant- and valued...
why doesn`t he say...if you close breed our cattle, you won`t have any genetic defects?
this is a discussion group OT; I`m really getting tired of your jibe and jive, Ali shuffle...if you`ve something to discuss, do it...if you`ve only just got something to say, save it ...
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:43 am

copied from advantage. It sums up the defect quite nicely.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by TYROINOZ

From what is known about these body pattern duplication defects in mice I suspect that only 1% to 5% would survive to full term. Most are undetected abortions in the first half of pregnancy. I have another conjoined twin case with DDC consistent pedigrees on both sides (ie known DD carrier parents).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



on this defect, in my opinion, the highlighted in red quote is both the issue and potential benefit to the breed as a whole. It would depend as to when the affected calf is slipped in general but if beyond 60 days and before 200 days of pregnancy it would lead to cows who, though checked pregnant, failed to deliver on time. Given the bloodlines involved you have to calculate there are a lot of potential carriers out in the commercial and registered Angus population.

In my view the testing and elimination of carrier bulls going into commercial herds will actually benefit the breed two-fold. First the likelihood of affected calves being born is eliminated, but secondly and more importantly, the rate of females exposed to bulls who conceive and deliver on time should go up, in one fell swoop we have improved fertility!

We can't bury our heads and hope the problem goes away, like it seems the motion and promotion end of the breed seems to endorse, we should test to determine prevalence within our herds and we should insure only DDF bulls go out to work.
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:56 pm

Every defect has been advertised in a catalog as needed change and improvement and been delivered in nitrogen as superior to what you already have and it was not true.

The last one is funny as he was advertised as having extra leg and really did pass it on.
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Oldtimer



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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:11 pm

MKeeney wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
LCP wrote:


LCP, waiting for the $LEG index to be unveiled
Laughing Laughing 

This sure makes Greg Goldens (Cole Creek Angus) catalog line "This herd is free of and has NO 9J9-Precision, NO Fame-Focus, NO 315-036-New Design, and NO Bando 155-Bando 598" that much more significant- and valued...
why doesn`t he say...if you close breed our cattle, you won`t have any genetic defects?
this is a discussion group OT; I`m really getting tired of your jibe and jive, Ali shuffle...if you`ve something to discuss, do it...if you`ve only just got something to say, save it ...
I can't answer for Greg- but maybe he will address you and your question in his next catalog article...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:56 pm

Oldtimer wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
LCP wrote:


LCP, waiting for the $LEG index to be unveiled
Laughing Laughing 

This sure makes Greg Goldens (Cole Creek Angus) catalog line "This herd is free of and has NO 9J9-Precision, NO Fame-Focus, NO 315-036-New Design, and NO Bando 155-Bando 598" that much more significant- and valued...
why doesn`t he say...if you close breed our cattle, you won`t have any genetic defects?
this is a discussion group OT; I`m really getting tired of your jibe and jive, Ali shuffle...if you`ve something to discuss, do it...if you`ve only just got something to say, save it ...
I can't answer for Greg- but maybe he will address you and your question in his next catalog article...
you`re the one that stated Greg`s cattle were more valuable now...so I must assume you know they are recessive defect free?
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Oldtimer



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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:03 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
LCP wrote:


LCP, waiting for the $LEG index to be unveiled
Laughing Laughing 

This sure makes Greg Goldens (Cole Creek Angus) catalog line "This herd is free of and has NO 9J9-Precision, NO Fame-Focus, NO 315-036-New Design, and NO Bando 155-Bando 598" that much more significant- and valued...
why doesn`t he say...if you close breed our cattle, you won`t have any genetic defects?
this is a discussion group OT; I`m really getting tired of your jibe and jive, Ali shuffle...if you`ve something to discuss, do it...if you`ve only just got something to say, save it ...
I can't answer for Greg- but maybe he will address you and your question in his next catalog article...
you`re the one that stated Greg`s cattle were more valuable now...so I must assume you know they are recessive defect free?
Well to me- about now they are more valuable than some New Design cow... Except to me- they have been for quite some time...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:35 pm

Oldtimer wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
LCP wrote:


LCP, waiting for the $LEG index to be unveiled
Laughing Laughing 

This sure makes Greg Goldens (Cole Creek Angus) catalog line "This herd is free of and has NO 9J9-Precision, NO Fame-Focus, NO 315-036-New Design, and NO Bando 155-Bando 598" that much more significant- and valued...
why doesn`t he say...if you close breed our cattle, you won`t have any genetic defects?
this is a discussion group OT; I`m really getting tired of your jibe and jive, Ali shuffle...if you`ve something to discuss, do it...if you`ve only just got something to say, save it ...
I can't answer for Greg- but maybe he will address you and your question in his next catalog article...
you`re the one that stated Greg`s cattle were more valuable now...so I must assume you know they are recessive defect free?
Well to me- about now they are more valuable than some New Design cow... Except to me- they have been for quite some time...
so as I thought, nothing has really changed...except your future possibilities to continue your composite program has been limited by one; by the time you need another outcross, there will be some tested free of what they call this????...I think I`ll call it "one leg up"... is that more accurate than "defect' Kent? Smile 
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:26 pm

I corrected my gripe- I even have trouble making myself type C H A L L E N G E. KP Challenged to be P C
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:27 am

MKeeney wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
LCP wrote:


LCP, waiting for the $LEG index to be unveiled
Laughing Laughing 

This sure makes Greg Goldens (Cole Creek Angus) catalog line "This herd is free of and has NO 9J9-Precision, NO Fame-Focus, NO 315-036-New Design, and NO Bando 155-Bando 598" that much more significant- and valued...
OT, I do not know anything about Greg.  But I am curious as to why he is a contact for the Eastern Sinclair Dispersal?  Are they linked in some way or does he use their bulls or something?  It really isn't a big deal but plain old curiosity.
I don't know.. Almost seems strange since he has commented about an adverse opinion on and never used EXT bloodlines... But both have some old Jorgenson breeding in their herds...

Personally so far I'm pleased with my combining of Sinclair, Jorgenson, EXT, and Cole Creek bloodlines in this bull I am now using...



Sinclair Rito Legacy 3R9 grandson / EXT 4 generations back on the top side--- by a Cole Creek Goldmere 31N/Cole Creek Juanadamere 102R ( C H Quantum 6247 "Cedar") daughter
North Dakota Will has finally gotten through to OT and convinced him of the merit of composite bulls...
Do you generally want your bulls to carry that much finish? Not a mean question but just wondering about what works for you. I've got a half brother/ half sister mating bull that is about the same size (guess) but carries less fat and I prefer that along with the slick hair coat. I also have a full brother/full sister mating bull that is not very picture worthy and probably never will be but he bred the heifer this year. I'm not 100% on everything getting tighter bred but the only way to know if some of them are worth keeping is to try a few. No time to waste you know! If the 4 way combo works, would this bull be considered an improvement over the individual lines or an equal representation of each?
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:00 am

EddieM wrote:

If the 4 way combo works, would this bull be considered an improvement over the individual lines or an equal representation of each?
How can a 4 way combo bull "work" and be an improvement over crossing individual lines? Aren't you just back to the old marketing heterosis instead of homozygosity racket at the seed-stock level? Like the guys selling the F1 bulls who claim the performance of their bulls as "genetic progress" while they rob their customers of the potential of the heterosis effect.
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Oldtimer



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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:30 pm

EddieM wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
LCP wrote:


LCP, waiting for the $LEG index to be unveiled
Laughing Laughing 

This sure makes Greg Goldens (Cole Creek Angus) catalog line "This herd is free of and has NO 9J9-Precision, NO Fame-Focus, NO 315-036-New Design, and NO Bando 155-Bando 598" that much more significant- and valued...
OT, I do not know anything about Greg.  But I am curious as to why he is a contact for the Eastern Sinclair Dispersal?  Are they linked in some way or does he use their bulls or something?  It really isn't a big deal but plain old curiosity.
I don't know.. Almost seems strange since he has commented about an adverse opinion on and never used EXT bloodlines... But both have some old Jorgenson breeding in their herds...

Personally so far I'm pleased with my combining of Sinclair, Jorgenson, EXT, and Cole Creek bloodlines in this bull I am now using...



Sinclair Rito Legacy 3R9 grandson / EXT 4 generations back on the top side--- by a Cole Creek Goldmere 31N/Cole Creek Juanadamere 102R ( C H Quantum 6247 "Cedar") daughter
North Dakota Will has finally gotten through to OT and convinced him of the merit of composite bulls...
Do you generally want your bulls to carry that much finish?  Not a mean question but just wondering about what works for you. I've got a half brother/ half sister mating bull that is about the same size (guess) but carries less fat and I prefer that along with the slick hair coat.  I also have a full brother/full sister mating bull that is not very picture worthy and probably never will be but he bred the heifer this year.  I'm not 100% on everything getting tighter bred but the only way to know if some of them are worth keeping is to try a few.  No time to waste you know!  If the 4 way combo works, would this bull be considered an improvement over the individual lines or an equal representation of each?
Short of penning him up and putting him on a crash diet/starving him - I don't know how to change his ability to put on/hold weight... He was wintered on grass hay- salt block- and 1/4 of a coffee can of rangemaster pellets (or any cheap pellet/grain/screenings I could get ahold of) I hand fed daily to the bulls just to get them to come to the corral when I call them and to keep them used to me walking out around them...
I like to think of it as a sign of easy keeping and a high ability to convert grass to fat trait... His sire was the same way.....But at the same time- they have been rustlers during breeding season- always on the go making their circle to check the girls out- and in multi bull pastures breeding the most cows...



The young bull in that pasture does not pack as much finish.... He is the double bred Bannon of Wye with Bannon being his paternal grandsire and maternal grandsire...  He is nothing to look at- but has good feet and legs and is very docile and I was hoping with his ancestry of cow makers (Bannon/Favour/Lodge/Bear for Wye bulls, Basin Max 602C, 6807, Shoshone Viking GD 60, etc) he might be able to pass some of that along into his heifers.... I had him leased out last year- and so far the calves that fella got out of them look pretty good...
Time will tell if that composite works ...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:51 pm

why would anyone keeping daughters want Rito 707 close up in a pedigree? look at his type; look at his daughters numbers...perfect match...
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Oldtimer



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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:08 pm

MKeeney wrote:
why would anyone keeping daughters want Rito 707 close up in a pedigree? look at his type; look at his daughters numbers...perfect match...
I thought you weren't a numbers person Question  Anyway- many I have high respect for in the cattle business have told me different about Rito 707 progeny - with some claiming that his sons  PBC 707 1M F0203 #8252710 who sired Dixie Erica of C H 1019 (the matron of a line of cattle believed by many to be quite maternal- OCC ) was/is a top cow maker...

 Dale Davis thought Rito 707 was the best bull he ever owned... And if he was good enough for him- and John Hamilton (who I feel had one of the better maternal herds in the country) who used his bloodline heavily and that  Tim Ohlde built a herd around- then he's good enough for me...


So for someone that doesn't like numbers- what numbers don't you like?
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:35 pm

Sounds like you've been spending too much time with the Jammer, OT - picking the next great one based on so-and-so in another part of the country being "high" on them.
If everyone is thinking alike, then someone isn't thinking - for themselves
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Oldtimer



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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:28 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
Sounds like you've been spending too much time with the Jammer, OT - picking the next great one based on so-and-so in another part of the country being "high" on them.
If everyone is thinking alike, then someone isn't thinking - for themselves
Actually Dale Davis, and John Hamilton were from MY part of the country-- and Tim Ohlde has had a heavy influence in some herds in MY part of the country too- including Diamond D... Most of the folks I talked to before looking for Rito 707 bloodlines were locals- both commercial and registered that had direct experience with him... Altho some had different ideas on what was good and bad with the bull and his sons/daughters- almost all said he will do you no harm- and I liked that...

Maybe the same reason several on this site have used 707 progeny- which still shows up in their herds... If I remember right even Voss's Omaha Clint had 707 a few generations back...

I think that's better than having someone try to tell everyone that no numbered/no named Kentucky cows are perfect for everyone and everywhere- and are the only way to think...Wink

Quote :
"If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."
George S. Patton
How do you pick your bulls Grassfarmer?
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:37 am

Oldtimer wrote:

How do you pick your bulls Grassfarmer?
By using my own thought and selection process based on my knowledge of my cattle and applicable to my conditions.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:52 am

Quote :
If I remember right even Voss's Omaha Clint had 707 a few generations back...
typical registered breeder; can`t see the forest for the pedigree... Voss will tell you Clint wasn`t very damn good...but of course, one bull; or one cow; a few generations back; is virtually meaningless...

707 hint ...I used a linebred rito fo203{CEM minus 6} son here...never had a 2 yr old calve unassisted (707 CEM minus 12}; and would eat your ass off at calving there after...if you can`t think past a piece to the puzzle, you must not be thinking

popularity isn`t proof of profitability...little square hipped, fat, terminal, grass fed type isn`t maternal in Kentucky or anywhere else...

there`s only one type that is maternal; a man running those two different type bulls together in one pasture must be covering all his bases...

not being able to make up your mind isn't thinking differently; it`s not thinking at all...
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Oldtimer



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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:12 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:

How do you pick your bulls Grassfarmer?
By using my own thought and selection process based on my knowledge of my cattle and applicable to my conditions.
Sounds about like I do- except I don't assume to be all knowledgeable about all cattle... When I don't know an animal too well I like to add in direct experience of others- especially those that have a wealth of experience in the cattle world...
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Oldtimer



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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:59 am

MKeeney wrote:
Quote :
If I remember right even Voss's Omaha Clint had 707 a few generations back...
typical registered breeder;  can`t see the forest for the pedigree... Voss will tell you Clint wasn`t very damn good...but of course, one bull; or one cow; a few generations back; is virtually meaningless...

707 hint ...I used a linebred rito fo203{CEM minus 6} son here...never had a 2 yr old calve unassisted (707 CEM minus 12}; and would eat your ass off at calving there after...if you can`t think past a piece to the puzzle, you must not be thinking

popularity isn`t proof of profitability...little square hipped, fat, terminal, grass fed type isn`t maternal in Kentucky or anywhere else...

there`s only one type that is maternal; a man running those two different type bulls together in one pasture must be covering all his bases...

not being able to make up your mind isn't thinking differently; it`s not thinking at all...

Gee- you keep throwing around all these numbers- and their importance- I'll be thinking you took a side stop in Iowa on your road home from Canuckland...Wink Razz 
This little 707 bull has a CEM of +6...The Bannon has a +9...

As far as what I and you want in a maternal animal is somewhat different too... I want a stockier cow with some meat on their bones and fat on their ribs to hold off the 30-40 below winds- that Kentuck Kows never see... I also don't care for cows that live to be 20 years old- because in this short grass country where you see broken mouths by age 6-7 and gummers by age 10-12-- and often old gummers don't winter as well without special care if the cold winds and snow decide to whip around for 5-6 months- so most prefer to cull them by age 12 so they don't have to spend the extra time/cost of pampering... And while I probably have both the time and the money to give old cows extra care- I refuse to do it... I believe the cows should be working for you- not you working for them...

Oh I had my mind made up- the bulls were in separate pastures for the first month of breeding season- then threw together just for insurance that if one went bad the other could pick up the slack... It was bad enough that the Bannon bull came up with a swollen sheath with a knot on it a couple of days before turn out time so had to take to Vet again...Turned out to be probably a bug bite- that left everything swollen- but didn't affect the working equipment... But in that way-putting them together I guess could be called covering all bases...

You may be right- the double bred Bannon bulls calves may make the better cows- but the cowside of the 707 grandson is strong (Cole Creek Juanadamere 5U  #15822851 out of the 102 R cow)  ... Only time will tell... A few years from now- I may be cussing the 707 calves/cows- but for right now they are looking pretty good...
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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:16 am

Quote :
This little 707 bull has a CEM of +6...
if 707 wasn`t in the pedigree; he would probably be +12...that`s the problem with breeding composites, you can`t get the good without also getting the bad...judging by his type; he won`t breed his preliminary CEM number...

so the two bulls were in separate pastures; they were in the herd and will sire a uniform calf crop?...of course, as you build composites, you need 4 types of animals; so the Bannon may have been with different type cows? do the reciprocal crosses of a composite program yield the same results?

here`s maternal Smile


you think this little lady living 600 miles north of you has never seen winter winds?

she`s seen fire and she`s rarely seen rain
She`s seen sunny days that she thought would never end
She`s seen snowy times when she could not find a friend
But come spring, you always see her calf  again
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Oldtimer



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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:36 am

MKeeney wrote:
Quote :
This little 707 bull has a CEM of +6...
if 707 wasn`t in the pedigree; he would probably be +12...that`s the problem with breeding composites, you can`t get the good without also getting the bad...judging by his type; he won`t breed his preliminary CEM number...

so the two bulls were in separate pastures; they were in the herd and will sire a uniform calf crop?...of course, as you build composites, you need 4 types of animals; so the Bannon may have been with different type cows? do the reciprocal crosses of a composite program yield the same results?

here`s maternal Smile


you think this little lady living 600 miles north of you has never seen winter winds?

she`s seen fire and she`s rarely seen rain
She`s seen sunny days that she thought would never end
She`s seen snowy times when she could not find a friend
But come spring, you always see her calf  again
You might see a calf every year- but I've spent 43 years as a brand inspector-- and at shipping time the calves of that cow are the ones that always end up in the cut back pen by the order buyer- and then having to be hauled to the stockyards where they take a $5- $15 a cwt cut in price (and often bought by the same buyer) ...
I know Canada is a lot more colorblind than the U.S. is which is evidenced by their feedlots - but they wouldn't fly down here if you're talking profitability...I used to love some of the old roan Shorthorn/Hereford cross cows- but anymore you almost have to give those cows/calves away...

And one of the things I've learned in those 43 years of watching thousands upon thousands of calves sell- another key to good profitability is that you also have to produce a product that those buyers want... From what I've experienced so far with my calves- and several herds I've watched for years- the 707 influenced cattle work great for our area that has a lot of large yearling operations... They winter well and then go out and put on the pounds on grass alone...

And when you talk of numbers and 707 aren't you being a wee bit hypocritical since you post on your website bulls with 707 in their bloodstream with worse CED and CEM numbers than my bulls has... Question   
K A Buttress 824
K A Messenger 427  
even Shoshone Encore 6310 has only a CEM of 4 and a CED of 0....

Was 707/6807 influence in your bulls that bad? Was those bulls maternal or not?


Last edited by Oldtimer on Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:54 am

43 years and you've never figured out the auction market is just another circus like the purebred cattle circus? Based on fads and fashion with little application of logic or commercial relevance. The product we produce is beef and its all red when you take the hide off, the average consumer couldn't give two hoots if it's off a red spotted cow or a black one despite all the black hided beef promotion.
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