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PatB



Posts : 927
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 52
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:03 pm

link to list of tested bulls and status

http://www.angus.org/Pub/DD/DD_Update08122013.pdf

link to AAA press release on this topic

http://www.angus.org/Pub/DD/DD_Announcement08122013.pdf
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LCP



Posts : 229
Join date : 2012-04-16
Location : north central SD

PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:23 pm

"Even though pedigree analysis of the calves clearly showed evidence of line breeding,
the molecular analysis revealed nothing that would
have lead us to believe that the condition was
genetic. "

Instills confidence in their abilities, eh?

"Of course, one would not expect a calf
born with five or six legs to become an AI sire..."

Well, not yet anyway.

LCP, waiting for the $LEG index to be unveiled
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Oldtimer



Posts : 418
Join date : 2010-10-04
Location : Northeast Montana

PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:14 am

LCP wrote:


LCP, waiting for the $LEG index to be unveiled
Laughing Laughing 

This sure makes Greg Goldens (Cole Creek Angus) catalog line "This herd is free of and has NO 9J9-Precision, NO Fame-Focus, NO 315-036-New Design, and NO Bando 155-Bando 598" that much more significant- and valued...
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EddieM



Posts : 1469
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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:25 am

Oldtimer wrote:
LCP wrote:


LCP, waiting for the $LEG index to be unveiled
Laughing Laughing 

This sure makes Greg Goldens (Cole Creek Angus) catalog line "This herd is free of and has NO 9J9-Precision, NO Fame-Focus, NO 315-036-New Design, and NO Bando 155-Bando 598" that much more significant- and valued...
OT, I do not know anything about Greg. But I am curious as to why he is a contact for the Eastern Sinclair Dispersal? Are they linked in some way or does he use their bulls or something? It really isn't a big deal but plain old curiosity.
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Oldtimer



Posts : 418
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Location : Northeast Montana

PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:59 am

EddieM wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
LCP wrote:


LCP, waiting for the $LEG index to be unveiled
Laughing Laughing 

This sure makes Greg Goldens (Cole Creek Angus) catalog line "This herd is free of and has NO 9J9-Precision, NO Fame-Focus, NO 315-036-New Design, and NO Bando 155-Bando 598" that much more significant- and valued...
OT, I do not know anything about Greg.  But I am curious as to why he is a contact for the Eastern Sinclair Dispersal?  Are they linked in some way or does he use their bulls or something?  It really isn't a big deal but plain old curiosity.
I don't know.. Almost seems strange since he has commented about an adverse opinion on and never used EXT bloodlines... But both have some old Jorgenson breeding in their herds...

Personally so far I'm pleased with my combining of Sinclair, Jorgenson, EXT, and Cole Creek bloodlines in this bull I am now using...



Sinclair Rito Legacy 3R9 grandson / EXT 4 generations back on the top side--- by a Cole Creek Goldmere 31N/Cole Creek Juanadamere 102R ( C H Quantum 6247 "Cedar") daughter
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Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:15 am

Far worse defects out there than a self limiting defect. lets look at fertility and feet, poor udders and, poor mothers first then worry about the drama QUEENS. Hell when it is said and done there will be at least a dozen defects to test for. W.T Thinkin the Purebred business has found there new crisis for the year.Surprised Surprised 
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PatB



Posts : 927
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 52
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:49 am

This genetic challenge/defect is being associated with embryonic death which shows up as a fertility problem. The UC davis is working on another group of markers that could identify more genetic challenges that cause embryonic death.
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MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 6560
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:20 pm

Oldtimer wrote:
LCP wrote:


LCP, waiting for the $LEG index to be unveiled
Laughing Laughing 

This sure makes Greg Goldens (Cole Creek Angus) catalog line "This herd is free of and has NO 9J9-Precision, NO Fame-Focus, NO 315-036-New Design, and NO Bando 155-Bando 598" that much more significant- and valued...
why doesn`t he say...if you close breed our cattle, you won`t have any genetic defects?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:27 pm

Oldtimer wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
LCP wrote:


LCP, waiting for the $LEG index to be unveiled
Laughing Laughing 

This sure makes Greg Goldens (Cole Creek Angus) catalog line "This herd is free of and has NO 9J9-Precision, NO Fame-Focus, NO 315-036-New Design, and NO Bando 155-Bando 598" that much more significant- and valued...
OT, I do not know anything about Greg.  But I am curious as to why he is a contact for the Eastern Sinclair Dispersal?  Are they linked in some way or does he use their bulls or something?  It really isn't a big deal but plain old curiosity.
I don't know.. Almost seems strange since he has commented about an adverse opinion on and never used EXT bloodlines... But both have some old Jorgenson breeding in their herds...

Personally so far I'm pleased with my combining of Sinclair, Jorgenson, EXT, and Cole Creek bloodlines in this bull I am now using...



Sinclair Rito Legacy 3R9 grandson / EXT 4 generations back on the top side--- by a Cole Creek Goldmere 31N/Cole Creek Juanadamere 102R ( C H Quantum 6247 "Cedar") daughter
North Dakota Will has finally gotten through to OT and convinced him of the merit of composite bulls...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:06 pm

PatB wrote:
This genetic defect/defect is being associated with embryonic death which shows up as a fertility problem.   The UC davis is working on another group of markers that could identify more genetic defects that cause embryonic death.  
Pat, who are the people that will be hurt economically by the presence of this defect?
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:49 am

Mike

I will be and many other cattle producers take financial losses due to slipped calves or fertility issues caused by this defect and others similar to it. Hopefully removing of animals that show fertility issues from the herd will reduce the incidences of fertility defects. What is couple of extra calves a year worth to the bottom line?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:12 am

PatB wrote:
Mike

I will be and many other cattle producers take financial losses due to slipped calves or fertility issues caused by this defect and others similar to it.  Hopefully removing of animals that show fertility issues from the herd will reduce the incidences of fertility defects.  What is couple of extra calves a year worth to the bottom line?
sorry Pat, not a clear question on my part...who are the registered breeders that will suffer the greatest monetary losses? losses will be directly proportional to how much they paid for what is now defective cattle ? what is the lesson some should be learning by now? don`t pay too much for any breeding stock; the genetics aren`t worth it; the extraordinary prices are for admittance to the con game, and these cattle just got kicked out...and no OT, Greg`s cattle aren`t worth anymore today than they were 2 weeks ago to a commercial cattle; what they will do genetically hasn`t changed a bit...

does the scientific community really believe these are recent mutations, or is mutation a handy excuse for all the outside breeds/blood that have been improperly added to the Angus registry?
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:30 am

It is my understanding that this defect is very old and could also affect most mammal species.  I have no idea who is going to take the biggest hit from this latest defect and don't eally care but more genetic defects will be identified in the future.   I am more worried what it will do to my program as I have used several of the bulls listed as carriers in the past.  I can think of several  incidence that have been ignored by the AAA the involved registered sires and commercial dams.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:40 am

MKeeney wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
LCP wrote:


LCP, waiting for the $LEG index to be unveiled
Laughing Laughing 

This sure makes Greg Goldens (Cole Creek Angus) catalog line "This herd is free of and has NO 9J9-Precision, NO Fame-Focus, NO 315-036-New Design, and NO Bando 155-Bando 598" that much more significant- and valued...
why doesn`t he say...if you close breed our cattle, you won`t have any genetic defects?
this is a discussion group OT; I`m really getting tired of your jibe and jive, Ali shuffle...if you`ve something to discuss, do it...if you`ve only just got something to say, save it ...
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PatB



Posts : 927
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Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:43 am

copied from advantage. It sums up the defect quite nicely.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by TYROINOZ

From what is known about these body pattern duplication defects in mice I suspect that only 1% to 5% would survive to full term. Most are undetected abortions in the first half of pregnancy. I have another conjoined twin case with DDC consistent pedigrees on both sides (ie known DD carrier parents).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



on this defect, in my opinion, the highlighted in red quote is both the issue and potential benefit to the breed as a whole. It would depend as to when the affected calf is slipped in general but if beyond 60 days and before 200 days of pregnancy it would lead to cows who, though checked pregnant, failed to deliver on time. Given the bloodlines involved you have to calculate there are a lot of potential carriers out in the commercial and registered Angus population.

In my view the testing and elimination of carrier bulls going into commercial herds will actually benefit the breed two-fold. First the likelihood of affected calves being born is eliminated, but secondly and more importantly, the rate of females exposed to bulls who conceive and deliver on time should go up, in one fell swoop we have improved fertility!

We can't bury our heads and hope the problem goes away, like it seems the motion and promotion end of the breed seems to endorse, we should test to determine prevalence within our herds and we should insure only DDF bulls go out to work.
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Kent Powell



Posts : 1158
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:56 pm

Every defect has been advertised in a catalog as needed change and improvement and been delivered in nitrogen as superior to what you already have and it was not true.

The last one is funny as he was advertised as having extra leg and really did pass it on.
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Oldtimer



Posts : 418
Join date : 2010-10-04
Location : Northeast Montana

PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:11 pm

MKeeney wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
LCP wrote:


LCP, waiting for the $LEG index to be unveiled
Laughing Laughing 

This sure makes Greg Goldens (Cole Creek Angus) catalog line "This herd is free of and has NO 9J9-Precision, NO Fame-Focus, NO 315-036-New Design, and NO Bando 155-Bando 598" that much more significant- and valued...
why doesn`t he say...if you close breed our cattle, you won`t have any genetic defects?
this is a discussion group OT; I`m really getting tired of your jibe and jive, Ali shuffle...if you`ve something to discuss, do it...if you`ve only just got something to say, save it ...
I can't answer for Greg- but maybe he will address you and your question in his next catalog article...
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MKeeney
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Posts : 6560
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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:56 pm

Oldtimer wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
LCP wrote:


LCP, waiting for the $LEG index to be unveiled
Laughing Laughing 

This sure makes Greg Goldens (Cole Creek Angus) catalog line "This herd is free of and has NO 9J9-Precision, NO Fame-Focus, NO 315-036-New Design, and NO Bando 155-Bando 598" that much more significant- and valued...
why doesn`t he say...if you close breed our cattle, you won`t have any genetic defects?
this is a discussion group OT; I`m really getting tired of your jibe and jive, Ali shuffle...if you`ve something to discuss, do it...if you`ve only just got something to say, save it ...
I can't answer for Greg- but maybe he will address you and your question in his next catalog article...
you`re the one that stated Greg`s cattle were more valuable now...so I must assume you know they are recessive defect free?
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Oldtimer



Posts : 418
Join date : 2010-10-04
Location : Northeast Montana

PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:03 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
LCP wrote:


LCP, waiting for the $LEG index to be unveiled
Laughing Laughing 

This sure makes Greg Goldens (Cole Creek Angus) catalog line "This herd is free of and has NO 9J9-Precision, NO Fame-Focus, NO 315-036-New Design, and NO Bando 155-Bando 598" that much more significant- and valued...
why doesn`t he say...if you close breed our cattle, you won`t have any genetic defects?
this is a discussion group OT; I`m really getting tired of your jibe and jive, Ali shuffle...if you`ve something to discuss, do it...if you`ve only just got something to say, save it ...
I can't answer for Greg- but maybe he will address you and your question in his next catalog article...
you`re the one that stated Greg`s cattle were more valuable now...so I must assume you know they are recessive defect free?
Well to me- about now they are more valuable than some New Design cow... Except to me- they have been for quite some time...
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MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 6560
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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:35 pm

Oldtimer wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
LCP wrote:


LCP, waiting for the $LEG index to be unveiled
Laughing Laughing 

This sure makes Greg Goldens (Cole Creek Angus) catalog line "This herd is free of and has NO 9J9-Precision, NO Fame-Focus, NO 315-036-New Design, and NO Bando 155-Bando 598" that much more significant- and valued...
why doesn`t he say...if you close breed our cattle, you won`t have any genetic defects?
this is a discussion group OT; I`m really getting tired of your jibe and jive, Ali shuffle...if you`ve something to discuss, do it...if you`ve only just got something to say, save it ...
I can't answer for Greg- but maybe he will address you and your question in his next catalog article...
you`re the one that stated Greg`s cattle were more valuable now...so I must assume you know they are recessive defect free?
Well to me- about now they are more valuable than some New Design cow... Except to me- they have been for quite some time...
so as I thought, nothing has really changed...except your future possibilities to continue your composite program has been limited by one; by the time you need another outcross, there will be some tested free of what they call this????...I think I`ll call it "one leg up"... is that more accurate than "defect' Kent? Smile 
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Kent Powell



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Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:26 pm

I corrected my gripe- I even have trouble making myself type C H A L L E N G E. KP Challenged to be P C
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EddieM



Posts : 1469
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:27 am

MKeeney wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
LCP wrote:


LCP, waiting for the $LEG index to be unveiled
Laughing Laughing 

This sure makes Greg Goldens (Cole Creek Angus) catalog line "This herd is free of and has NO 9J9-Precision, NO Fame-Focus, NO 315-036-New Design, and NO Bando 155-Bando 598" that much more significant- and valued...
OT, I do not know anything about Greg.  But I am curious as to why he is a contact for the Eastern Sinclair Dispersal?  Are they linked in some way or does he use their bulls or something?  It really isn't a big deal but plain old curiosity.
I don't know.. Almost seems strange since he has commented about an adverse opinion on and never used EXT bloodlines... But both have some old Jorgenson breeding in their herds...

Personally so far I'm pleased with my combining of Sinclair, Jorgenson, EXT, and Cole Creek bloodlines in this bull I am now using...



Sinclair Rito Legacy 3R9 grandson / EXT 4 generations back on the top side--- by a Cole Creek Goldmere 31N/Cole Creek Juanadamere 102R ( C H Quantum 6247 "Cedar") daughter
North Dakota Will has finally gotten through to OT and convinced him of the merit of composite bulls...
Do you generally want your bulls to carry that much finish? Not a mean question but just wondering about what works for you. I've got a half brother/ half sister mating bull that is about the same size (guess) but carries less fat and I prefer that along with the slick hair coat. I also have a full brother/full sister mating bull that is not very picture worthy and probably never will be but he bred the heifer this year. I'm not 100% on everything getting tighter bred but the only way to know if some of them are worth keeping is to try a few. No time to waste you know! If the 4 way combo works, would this bull be considered an improvement over the individual lines or an equal representation of each?
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Grassfarmer



Posts : 1369
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Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:00 am

EddieM wrote:

If the 4 way combo works, would this bull be considered an improvement over the individual lines or an equal representation of each?
How can a 4 way combo bull "work" and be an improvement over crossing individual lines? Aren't you just back to the old marketing heterosis instead of homozygosity racket at the seed-stock level? Like the guys selling the F1 bulls who claim the performance of their bulls as "genetic progress" while they rob their customers of the potential of the heterosis effect.
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Oldtimer



Posts : 418
Join date : 2010-10-04
Location : Northeast Montana

PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:30 pm

EddieM wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
LCP wrote:


LCP, waiting for the $LEG index to be unveiled
Laughing Laughing 

This sure makes Greg Goldens (Cole Creek Angus) catalog line "This herd is free of and has NO 9J9-Precision, NO Fame-Focus, NO 315-036-New Design, and NO Bando 155-Bando 598" that much more significant- and valued...
OT, I do not know anything about Greg.  But I am curious as to why he is a contact for the Eastern Sinclair Dispersal?  Are they linked in some way or does he use their bulls or something?  It really isn't a big deal but plain old curiosity.
I don't know.. Almost seems strange since he has commented about an adverse opinion on and never used EXT bloodlines... But both have some old Jorgenson breeding in their herds...

Personally so far I'm pleased with my combining of Sinclair, Jorgenson, EXT, and Cole Creek bloodlines in this bull I am now using...



Sinclair Rito Legacy 3R9 grandson / EXT 4 generations back on the top side--- by a Cole Creek Goldmere 31N/Cole Creek Juanadamere 102R ( C H Quantum 6247 "Cedar") daughter
North Dakota Will has finally gotten through to OT and convinced him of the merit of composite bulls...
Do you generally want your bulls to carry that much finish?  Not a mean question but just wondering about what works for you. I've got a half brother/ half sister mating bull that is about the same size (guess) but carries less fat and I prefer that along with the slick hair coat.  I also have a full brother/full sister mating bull that is not very picture worthy and probably never will be but he bred the heifer this year.  I'm not 100% on everything getting tighter bred but the only way to know if some of them are worth keeping is to try a few.  No time to waste you know!  If the 4 way combo works, would this bull be considered an improvement over the individual lines or an equal representation of each?
Short of penning him up and putting him on a crash diet/starving him - I don't know how to change his ability to put on/hold weight... He was wintered on grass hay- salt block- and 1/4 of a coffee can of rangemaster pellets (or any cheap pellet/grain/screenings I could get ahold of) I hand fed daily to the bulls just to get them to come to the corral when I call them and to keep them used to me walking out around them...
I like to think of it as a sign of easy keeping and a high ability to convert grass to fat trait... His sire was the same way.....But at the same time- they have been rustlers during breeding season- always on the go making their circle to check the girls out- and in multi bull pastures breeding the most cows...



The young bull in that pasture does not pack as much finish.... He is the double bred Bannon of Wye with Bannon being his paternal grandsire and maternal grandsire...  He is nothing to look at- but has good feet and legs and is very docile and I was hoping with his ancestry of cow makers (Bannon/Favour/Lodge/Bear for Wye bulls, Basin Max 602C, 6807, Shoshone Viking GD 60, etc) he might be able to pass some of that along into his heifers.... I had him leased out last year- and so far the calves that fella got out of them look pretty good...
Time will tell if that composite works ...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Developmental Duplication genetic condition   Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:51 pm

why would anyone keeping daughters want Rito 707 close up in a pedigree? look at his type; look at his daughters numbers...perfect match...
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