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PostSubject: Ruin a cow herd???   Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:47 pm

Recently aquired a mostly reg. cow herd , Cole Creek, Inderland,Dockweiler,breeding.If I was too throw this all away and sell everything by the pound, what bulls should I run on these cows??? I'm a color lover so not too excited about chars!!!Cows are april,may calvers now.
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:55 pm

Foster Creek Cattle wrote:
Recently aquired a mostly reg. cow herd , Cole Creek, Inderland,Dockweiler,breeding.If I was too throw this all away and sell everything by the pound, what bulls should I run on these cows??? I'm a color lover so not too excited about chars!!!Cows are april,may calvers now.

I'd throw a good Hereford bull on them... Get the heterosis of the cross- both the CAB/CHB premium- and still not have to throw away what could make some darn good "momma cow type" heifers if you find the right Hereford.....
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:10 am

Foster Creek Cattle wrote:
Recently aquired a mostly reg. cow herd , Cole Creek, Inderland,Dockweiler,breeding.If I was too throw this all away and sell everything by the pound, what bulls should I run on these cows??? I'm a color lover so not too excited about chars!!!Cows are april,may calvers now.
Welcome Foster Creek...since color is about the only defining characteristic of a breed anymore, you`re in luck wanting "color" as a priority; you can get that with predictability...but beyond that; you need to define what the purpose of the cross is other than just heterosis...and select the biological type that will deliver on that purpose...suggesting a "Hereford bull; Simmental etc " is fairly meaningless..
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:24 am

Foster Creek Cattle wrote:
Recently aquired a mostly reg. cow herd , Cole Creek, Inderland,Dockweiler,breeding.If I was too throw this all away and sell everything by the pound, what bulls should I run on these cows??? I'm a color lover so not too excited about chars!!!Cows are april,may calvers now.

breed them to what ever gives you the biggest black calves you can get. sure ABS or Genex could help you out.

Foster questions for you. What was the price of the cows? Can you buy this type of cow cheaper then making your own? Can you get these cows year after year for the same price? Do you think you will produce more income selling all the calves by the lb or breeding them to make more of the same? What is your long range goal selling heavy calves or always replacing cows?
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:38 pm

Younger end of herd will b bred back to their herdmates (and a few select older cows) but feel these cows can produce more lbs of calf if bred differnt with the feed resourses we;ve got. Till I find a market 4 these smaller females I dont need 250 heifers every year. So wanna use surplus cows to raise calves that sell by the pound!!!! herford would b my first choice but where do you find the good ones????
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:10 pm

I'm curious Foster Creek if you have been around many Cole Creek or Shoshone bred cattle? They are not small cattle like PCC cattle. They aren't big cattle but they're not small, at least in our country they're not. I've only seen a few of Roger's cattle but with alot of Viking in his base a doubt they are small either.
With the good maternal start you have with those base cows, you might want to consider a few things from the female side. Cattle numbers are at a 60 year low in the US and I believe in Canada too. With this latest agreement with China, and I'm betting on an agreement with S Korea ( nothing like the North lobbing a few missiles into the South to bring them back to the bargining table ) our export market could increase several fold. With the prices cattle are bringing today it is inevitable we will see a rebuilding of the US cow herd, if not this year than next. I think those 250 hfr calves will out sell the steers. Of course the F1 baldy hfrs are going to be as valuable (or maybe more valuable) then the straight blacks but either group will be highly sought after. I think we are headed into this rebuilding phase with the fewest number of truly maternal breeds or strains to choose from than ever in the history of this industry. Even if alot of these performance oriented cattle are used for replacement females they will not last very long which will slow the rebuilding and in the end lengthen our high price cycle.
If your set on Hereford bulls you might consider Ft Keogh's line one Herefords in Miles City MT. They're pretty good cattle and very affordable. At least they have been in the past. Also Brillhart's from Musselshell MT have very good , affordable Herefords.
In my opinion you can only make two mistakes. 1, not have a long range plan like Larkota mentioned, or 2 try to make that set of cows do everything. Either stay on with the maternal strain or push as much performance at them as you can find.
I'm not trying to preach and this is worth just what it's cost you, but I believe this replacement female market is set to be really good and stay really good for quite awhile.
What ever you decide, good luck.
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:46 pm

Thanks for the imput everyone, they r not SMALL cattle ,but r dwarfed by anything coming thru local sale barns arund here. Dont want anyone getting me wrong here , I think its a great cowherd,BUT repacement females sell by the pound in this country. Everybodies got a silage pile and an etaenol plant in thier back yard (me included)!!!!! I'm hoping not to screw up genetics in the base herd,thats y i'm asking questions here!!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:49 pm

NO hard feelings larkota, but I dont c how what I paid for em makes any difference!!!!! lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:24 pm

Foster Creek Cattle wrote:
Thanks for the imput everyone, they r not SMALL cattle ,but r dwarfed by anything coming thru local sale barns arund here. Dont want anyone getting me wrong here , I think its a great cowherd,BUT repacement females sell by the pound in this country. Everybodies got a silage pile and an etaenol plant in thier back yard (me included)!!!!! I'm hoping not to screw up genetics in the base herd,thats y i'm asking questions here!!!!!

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. If you truly believe you have a great cow herd and you are breeding the core group back to their herd mates, how do you think you could screw up the genetics in the base herd? You can't really change the genetics in a closed herd. I assume you are breeding the group back to their herd mates to maintain a replacement pool for your own use. If that is the case then I would use as much performance in the "terminal" group as I could get my hands on and that would include Charolais.
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:21 am

Foster Creek Cattle wrote:
Recently aquired a mostly reg. cow herd , Cole Creek, Inderland,Dockweiler,breeding.If I was too throw this all away and sell everything by the pound, what bulls should I run on these cows??? I'm a color lover so not too excited about chars!!!Cows are april,may calvers now.

NO hard feelings larkota, but I dont c how what I paid for em makes any difference!!!!!

first you said if I throw it all way for lbs.
then you say Younger end of herd will b bred back to their herdmates (and a few select older cows)

to me it sounds like you want it all. big calves and replacement females. what you paid for the cows does make a difference. if you can buy them cheaper then making your own go for it. why not sell lbs.
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:58 am

Thanks again for your time guys!! Wont there b any heterosis with main stream angus bulls on these cows? Main cow herd calves by themselves so char bulls not really an option in my mind.
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:25 pm

Foster Creek Cattle wrote:
Thanks again for your time guys!! Wont there b any heterosis with main stream angus bulls on these cows? Main cow herd calves by themselves so char bulls not really an option in my mind.

Sure there will b some heterosis if u use some mainstream angus bulls. Especially if u buy those bulls from some big name breeder in the $4- $7000 range. Can't help but make money!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:43 pm

I guess my question would be, will the resulting (type B) females from this mating be more profitable in a commercial herd than the straight bred mother? Even though they are sired by bulls with a little more growth?
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:20 am

MVCatt wrote:
I guess my question would be, will the resulting (type B) females from this mating be more profitable in a commercial herd than the straight bred mother? Even though they are sired by bulls with a little more growth?

MV what would you breed the type B females to make them more profitable?
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:03 pm

larkota wrote:
MVCatt wrote:
I guess my question would be, will the resulting (type B) females from this mating be more profitable in a commercial herd than the straight bred mother? Even though they are sired by bulls with a little more growth?

MV what would you breed the type B females to make them more profitable?

Larkota, I don't think it would matter how you would breed the type B's, for comparision I'd think you would just want to breed them the same. In a commercial sitution (without regard for replacements) I'd breed for the most Ilbs of feeder calf I could get.

Although I think I should maybe rephrase my question, and it's fairly open ended and a little vague. How much heterosis is to be had by crossing two lines within a breed (angus in this case)? One line is very stabilized (linebreed/type A), the other main stream angus genetics (little more growth, milk). If you believe crossbred cows are more profitable than straight bred cows, do you believe there is enough heterosis in these type B females that they are also better commercial cows than their straightbred mothers (despite the fact they may have more mature weight and maybe more milk). I also know that alot will depend on type of mainstream angus you use (how extreme as far as numbers).

There are alot things disscussed on this site that are over my head, but I still enjoy reading it and taking what I can from it to apply to my small operation. I know there are quite a few seedstock producers on here, and a lot of talk about stabilizing types. A noble cause I believe, but I think along the way many of us who are not seedstock breeders need to be shown how to use these genetics for commercial puposes. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:24 pm

MVCatt wrote:
larkota wrote:
MVCatt wrote:
I guess my question would be, will the resulting (type B) females from this mating be more profitable in a commercial herd than the straight bred mother? Even though they are sired by bulls with a little more growth?

MV what would you breed the type B females to make them more profitable?

Larkota, I don't think it would matter how you would breed the type B's, for comparision I'd think you would just want to breed them the same. In a commercial sitution (without regard for replacements) I'd breed for the most Ilbs of feeder calf I could get.


And right there reminds me of how some great cattle herds of old british cattle (hereford and angus- and those X's) got ruined back about 40+ years ago-- when all the college professors were promoting the Contintentals-- and all the bigger, better, faster craze in all cattle-- and that if we (me included) didn't jump on the ship-- we would be left behind...

Only thing that they didn't also tell us (or I think even perceive at the time) was all the problems with putting these new foreign/different genetics into each enviroment-- and the differences in management it would take to raise them and get those "most lbs" and "new era" cattle we were taught we needed-- and if it really was worth it ? ....
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:57 pm

No need to to get upset Jack , cows will all b bred maternal!!! So if I may throw out another question, If not wanting to increase cow size do we have to stay wiyh calving ease bulls???
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:15 pm

Oldtimer wrote:
MVCatt wrote:
larkota wrote:
MVCatt wrote:
I guess my question would be, will the resulting (type B) females from this mating be more profitable in a commercial herd than the straight bred mother? Even though they are sired by bulls with a little more growth?

MV what would you breed the type B females to make them more profitable?

Larkota, I don't think it would matter how you would breed the type B's, for comparision I'd think you would just want to breed them the same. In a commercial sitution (without regard for replacements) I'd breed for the most Ilbs of feeder calf I could get.


And right there reminds me of how some great cattle herds of old british cattle (hereford and angus- and those X's) got ruined back about 40+ years ago-- when all the college professors were promoting the Contintentals-- and all the bigger, better, faster craze in all cattle-- and that if we (me included) didn't jump on the ship-- we would be left behind...

Only thing that they didn't also tell us (or I think even perceive at the time) was all the problems with putting these new foreign/different genetics into each enviroment-- and the differences in management it would take to raise them and get those "most lbs" and "new era" cattle we were taught we needed-- and if it really was worth it ? ....

OT, confused how can you ruin the herd if you are not keeping replacements, or are you refering to other issues like calving difficulties or calf vigor?
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:42 pm

MVCatt wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
MVCatt wrote:
larkota wrote:
MVCatt wrote:
I guess my question would be, will the resulting (type B) females from this mating be more profitable in a commercial herd than the straight bred mother? Even though they are sired by bulls with a little more growth?

MV what would you breed the type B females to make them more profitable?

Larkota, I don't think it would matter how you would breed the type B's, for comparision I'd think you would just want to breed them the same. In a commercial sitution (without regard for replacements) I'd breed for the most Ilbs of feeder calf I could get.


And right there reminds me of how some great cattle herds of old british cattle (hereford and angus- and those X's) got ruined back about 40+ years ago-- when all the college professors were promoting the Contintentals-- and all the bigger, better, faster craze in all cattle-- and that if we (me included) didn't jump on the ship-- we would be left behind...

Only thing that they didn't also tell us (or I think even perceive at the time) was all the problems with putting these new foreign/different genetics into each enviroment-- and the differences in management it would take to raise them and get those "most lbs" and "new era" cattle we were taught we needed-- and if it really was worth it ? ....

OT, confused how can you ruin the herd if you are not keeping replacements, or are you refering to other issues like calving difficulties or calf vigor?

All of above-- but I was keeping replacements too...
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:15 pm

Oldtimer wrote:

All of above-- but I was keeping replacements too...

OT, if we're keeping replacements I agree with everything you've said.

I guess the reason I'm not talking about keeping heifers is that I wouldn't want to really breed B's to B's for replacements. Don't think you would get much heterosis there (not sure), but I think your herd would look like every other mainstream herd of angus cows. Also I think you would really get away from all the maternal goodness of the type A. Kinda like if they were truly crossbred some guys wouldn't want to take their replacements any further than F1's. What kinda bull do breed to F1's that you don't want replacements out of...as terminal as your management and environment can reasonably handle (My opinion).
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:43 pm

Foster Creek Cattle wrote:
Thanks again for your time guys!! Wont there b any heterosis with main stream angus bulls on these cows? Main cow herd calves by themselves so char bulls not really an option in my mind.

Breed stereotyping again - the world's full of Charolais bulls that sire calves that are born unassisted. Plenty of modern "Angus" are as likely to give you bigger calves. We've used Charolais bulls on and off since @1962 and only ever had one that gave us significant calving trouble (@10%). On a mature cow herd I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:44 am

While most of the breeders commercial and purebred jump from program to program and bull to bull there are some who put a great deal of thought into genetic decisions. The danger in thinking is sometimes we tend to over complicate or over think what we are trying to do. KISS!!!! Market realities are that 2 out of ten years big calves are what the buyers really want and lighter calves are tougher to market, 3 out of ten years lighter calves bring darn near as many dollars as bigger calves (some of that is happening this fall) and 5 out of ten years we have a smaller premium for lighter calves. It is maybe not sensible to breed-cross for the two out of ten year market . While the three out of ten year market may exagerate the efficiencies of smaller cows and later calving I would think it might be best to try to be in the middle for the 5 out of ten year senario. I know a little of your history so I know you have went down the big terminal cow road and probably don't want to go there again. From Advantage and 5barx I have learned that in Iowa corn is free and the best cattle to have are always the ones that convert and grow the fastest. In SD I think it cost money to raise and feed corn even as good as you folks are at it. I think Jack gave you some good advice-it might make sense to cross the end of the herd you don't need replacement out of and Line One Herfords would be a good choice and $2000 dollar and cheaper bulls make sense. As for the other part of the herd you want your replacements out of I think the kind of herds that maintain the type that you prefer in the herd you already have. If you to improve or change your nucleous herd my recomendation is baby steps. I think you have put some cattle together that represent lots of years of thoughtful breeding- I think more of the same makes sense. If you can do some AI that 81T bull in your neighborhood was a good looking/well bred bull. Get your bull advice from someone who admits they have seen and have learned just enough to be dangerous- that is the guy you can trust.
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:13 am

Quote :
...cows will all b bred maternal!!! So if I may throw out another question, If not wanting to increase cow size do we have to stay wiyh calving ease bulls???

Do you ever look at EPD's. Use the ones for MW and MH. Why drop BW to an extreme low when you do not need to do it? Just wondering, are these the first cattle that you have ever owned? Question
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:50 pm

I'm with eddie--not getting what using calving ease bulls has to do with mature size. You just need to not keep replacements by the terminal bull ( and btw lots of Charolais bulls can be used without calving troubles in mature black cows --), and you need to pay attention to mature size and pounds performance epd in the angus bulls you use- you can't use bulls with a lot of growth and expect to control mature size.
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PostSubject: Re: Ruin a cow herd???   Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:23 pm

"The best method of selecting against large cows (in the absence of mature size EPDs) is to select for moderate birth EPDs. The birth weight of bulls born to our mature cows is about 78 pounds. This translates into mature weights in the 1150 pound range( slaughter weights of 1200-1300 pounds--frame sizes in the 4to 5 range- carcass weights in the 800-850 pound range). We avoid 90 plus birth weight animals (2-4 birth EPDs in our herd) not because of calving assistance implications, but rather because of the 1400 pound cows those birth weights lead to." The Beckton Program
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